Big Screw Up get the Faa involved or not?

[Topper]

I am a little unclear on the exact cost of the repair. Is it only a couple of grand? I realize there is the principal of the matter, but is all of the aggravation worth it ? I am not at all convinced that this would amount to any more than a simple tort. You could likely receive a judgement for the repair costs. I doubt you would be entitled to attorney fees. Not always easy to collect on a judgement plus you will have more in attorney fees than the judgement.

By the time you go through all of what you are talking about, how much time will you have invested? What is your time worth and what is the aggravation worth?

Do whatever works for you and will make you happy. Personally I would write a check and go down the road.

If this a&p is truly unsafe and does not care, I appreciate that you would take the time to do something about it, because I would not have the time or energy. If this was a simple mistake or oversite, you may want to decide if going after his license if appropriate.

Jim

 

[skyflea]

wandering thoughts, I wonder how much thought went into choosing this facility to do the pre-buy inspection and what requirements were given to the inspector?

he got my email
with what i was expecting

comprehensive logs check, ad's cross check, engine compr test, oil filter cut and screened then stop and call me with results to keep going or stop, he call and mention 1 ad that i was all ready aware off, comp test good, oil screened some carbon but no metals, he told me solid plane 1 ad, after 2 weeks he comes back with this ????
Tom like i told you before im not in the business of screwing peoples life's but i don't allow people screw me either, is not my first plane and not my first pre buy i'm pretty sure to keep all communication thru email or txt messaging words go with the wind i have every single communication with this guy. Not looking to discuss farther till i resolve this matter and will post resolution.

 

[Henning]

wandering thoughts, I wonder how much thought went into choosing this facility to do the pre-buy inspection and what requirements were given to the inspector?

Should you not be able to expect a person with an IA issued by the FAA to know and follow the procedures outlined in that licensing? Isn't that half the reason we license people?

 

[schmookeeg]

I'm curious what the likelihood of the enforcement from the FAA will actually be in all of this, should OP make good his threat.

Here's the summary I've taken from this:

1. OP got a prebuy which missed an AD
2. Seller got an annual which missed an AD
3. Seller flew 40 hours on plane with an AD uncomplied.

My thinking here is:

FAA doesn't and cannot care about #1
FAA will gladly skewer the seller for his flying 40 hours on #3

For the Annual, though, I just took another peek at FAR43/D and I don't see where an annual inspection requires an AD search. It's early and I should know this better, but I don't. I may have overlooked it.

So.. how will the FAA skewer an IA for not doing maintenance when the owner's responsibility was to know about the maintenance and get it done?

Trying to comprehend the credibility of the threat of telling the FAA that a wrench didn't do something. I appreciate that most annuals include an AD search customarily, but I'm curious which FAR was busted here to interest the feds?

 

[skyflea]

The holder of an IA is required by 14 CFR part 43, § 43.13, to
determine that all applicable ADs for aircraft, powerplants,
propellers, instruments, and appliances have been
accomplished. You must consider the following:
1. If the maintenance records indicate compliance with an AD,
the holder of an IA should make a reasonable attempt to
verify the compliance. It is not uncommon for a component
to have compliance with an AD accomplished and properly
recorded then later be replaced by another component on
which the AD has not been accomplished. The holder of an
IA is not expected to disassemble major components
(cylinders, crankcases, etc.) if adequate records of
compliance exist.
2. When the maintenance records do not contain indications of
AD compliance, the holder of an IA should:
a. Make the AD an item on a discrepancy list provided to
the owner, in accordance with 14 CFR part 43, § 43.11(b);
b. With the owner’s concurrence, do whatever disassembly
is required to determine the status of compliance; or
c. Obtain concurrence of the owner to comply with the AD.
3. Often, an AD calls for an inspection, with a modification or
inspection required at a later date. It is very important to
identify, in the maintenance record entry, the portion of the
AD complied with and the exact method of compliance.
4. 14 CFR part 91, § 91.417(a)(2)(v) requires each registered
owner or operator to keep a record of the current status of
applicable ADs. This status includes for each the method of
compliance, AD number, and revision date. If the AD involves
15 recurring action, the time and date should be recorded when
the next action is required. As a vital part of the services
performed, the holder of an IA may wish to provide the
owner with information he or she is expected to keep. (Refer
to appendix 1, figure 5.)
5. The owner should also be informed of any subsequent
requirements of an AD or whether a reinspection is required
at operating intervals other than at annual inspections.
Often, the subsequent requirements are at 100-hour
intervals and will need to be done whether or not the aircraft
is required to have 100-hour inspections. Where a
progressive inspection is involved, the approved program
should state how and when the AD review will be
accomplished. However, as a mechanic or IA, you should be
aware of an AD that is pending or due, and is not in the area
you are inspecting. It is good customer relations to inform
the owner or pilot of the situation.

 

[kgruber]

Get the FAA involved? What a joke!

They couldn't care less about your problems.........unless you happen to run into an airliner.

You are just banging your head into a wall.

 

[N801BH]

Get the FAA involved? What a joke!

They couldn't care less about your problems.........unless you happen to run into an airliner.

You are just banging your head into a wall.

I have a 5 dollar bet you are wrong...

 

[schmookeeg]

The holder of an IA is required by 14 CFR part 43, § 43.13, to determine that all applicable ADs for aircraft, powerplants,
propellers, instruments, and appliances have been
accomplished.

...

Thanks. What's the source on that?

 

[flyingron]

Ron,the logic from the prop shop, is that performing both AD's at the same time would run more than overhauling the prop. they quote me 3000 for overhaul and they say both AD's would be comply. Btw they contact the shop I can get the prop overhauled in Houston for lot less than that.

And listen to me carefully. You can overhaul that prop 100 times and it will mean nothing to 95-11-08. That AD is not complied with by merely overhauling the prop. You must specifically do the inspections called out by the AD *OR* replace the blades/hub with one the AD doesn't apply to.

The other AD is satisfied by doing an overhaul, the earlier one is not.

Neither AD (nor both) is a substitute for an overhaul either.

Just doing the 95-11-08 inspections typically runs $1000. There's may a slight amount of savings doing it coincident with an overhaul because the blades are already removed from the hub (but that's less than an hour's labor).

You were screwed from the outset when you weren't advised that a prop subject to 95-11-08 is going to be a massive PITA.

 

[VanDy]

Thanks. What's the source on that?

Far 43.15 (a)(1)

 

[Tom-D]

Far 43.15 (a)(1)

Here is a better one ..

39.7 What is the legal effect of failing to comply with an airworthiness directive?
Anyone who operates a product that does not meet the requirements of an applicable airworthiness directive is in violation of this section.

§ 39.9 What if I operate an aircraft or use a product that does not meet the requirements of an airworthiness directive?
If the requirements of an airworthiness directive have not been met, you violate § 39.7 each time you operate the aircraft or use the product.


§ 39.11 What actions do airworthiness directives require?
Airworthiness directives specify inspections you must carry out, conditions and limitations you must comply with, and any actions you must take to resolve an unsafe condition.

 

[Tom-D]

It has been known that a owner gets the AD notice before any A&P gets it in their subscriptions to the federal register.

Therefore the FAA will violate the owner/pilot for 91.5 & .7 as well as the A&P for 43.15.

Remember the owner operator is responsible for maintenance of the aircraft.

 

[marcoseddi]

Sounds like the **** may hit the blades on this one!

 

[SkyHog]

wandering thoughts, I wonder how much thought went into choosing this facility to do the pre-buy inspection and what requirements were given to the inspector?

Aka "she shouldn't have been wearing such provocative clothing"

 

[N801BH]

Aka "she shouldn't have been wearing such provocative clothing"

...

Poor Tom is defending this BAD mechanic till the cows come home instead of admitting he flat screwed up.......

FWIW... I have witnessed this same behavior among other A&P's too... it must be an unspoken rule that was taught to them in A&P school..
" Don't rat out another mechanic if you find something they did wrong".... Lawyers do this exact same thing among themselves.

 

[Tom-D]

...

Poor Tom is defending this BAD mechanic till the cows come home instead of admitting he flat screwed up.......

FWIW... I have witnessed this same behavior among other A&P's too... it must be an unspoken rule that was taught to them in A&P school..
" Don't rat out another mechanic if you find something they did wrong".... Lawyers do this exact same thing among themselves.

Not really, but we only have one side of the story.

 

[N801BH]

Not really, but we only have one side of the story.

Agreed.....

 

[skyflea]

hey they still have till Monday to fix this crap. I have a really good friend an hes a DAR inspector, he check the last Navajo we sold to south america, hes knows this would have bring trouble to the AP, PO and the FBO, im not looking to create problems i just want what i pay, is getting closer and closer every time you drop a plane for service you need a dam lawyer with you. And Tom is not personal brother i do have a really good AP and trust him with my life every time i flown the plane in the middle of the ocean but this popo is not on me my friend.

 

[Tom-D]

Agreed.....

Then I suggest we back off rather than sounding like an electronic lynch mob.

 

[Tom-D]

hey they still have till Monday to fix this crap. I have a really good friend an hes a DAR inspector, he check the last Navajo we sold to south america, hes knows this would have bring trouble to the AP, PO and the FBO, im not looking to create problems i just want what i pay, is getting closer and closer every time you drop a plane for service you need a dam lawyer with you. And Tom is not personal brother i do have a really good AP and trust him with my life every time i flown the plane in the middle of the ocean but this popo is not on me my friend.

Is this aircraft being exported?

 

[N801BH]

Then I suggest we back off rather than sounding like an electronic lynch mob.

WE.....

 

[skyflea]

Is this aircraft being exported?

This plane is for me, believe me if was a customer plane i wont discuss it.
The PO is a 80 year old super cool guy, i'm not going to put him in the middle even if i have to eat the prop, but this guy sign this plane twice with out the ad done, you can say wherever you want he admit to it, in my eyes this guy is a criminal.

 

[Tom-D]

This plane is for me, believe me if was a customer plane i wont discuss it.
The PO is a 80 year old super cool guy, i'm not going to put him in the middle even if i have to eat the prop, but this guy sign this plane twice with out the ad done, you can say wherever you want he admit to it, in my eyes this guy is a criminal.

Have you considered this A&P may not be in a financial position to make this right?

If he is working in a FBO, he's probably making $12 an hour.

 

[Henning]

...

Poor Tom is defending this BAD mechanic till the cows come home instead of admitting he flat screwed up.......

FWIW... I have witnessed this same behavior among other A&P's too... it must be an unspoken rule that was taught to them in A&P school..
" Don't rat out another mechanic if you find something they did wrong".... Lawyers do this exact same thing among themselves.

You gotta defend bad mechanics, who else are you gonna send bad owners to?

People come to me at the car lot with a 120,000 mile Chevy with a burnt valve, I tell them I won't do a valve job without doing bearings in the bottom end because it's gonna smoke a rod as soon as I give it compression back with a fresh valve job. They say no, just do the valve job. I say no, just go to Marlon down the street, he'll do you a valve job. 2 weeks later I sold him a new car when he pulled in with a rod knock.

 

[skyflea]

Tom, when i"m not in a financial position to fk it up i generally lay down pretty low and don"t screw things up, missing AD'S and blame the computer wasn't working that day is not going to fly with me, i got in this country with 13 buks and a back pack don"t tell me about not being in a financial position, i can barely afford to fart went i get here, and i can give you every past job phone number with out a doubt, im a straight fella i work my ass off and wen i do make a mistake i put my chest and take the bullet, my responsibilities are mine and not any one else, wen i start the thread it was because i feel sad about this guy, and was trying to get my mind on the side, but at this point he just plain lye to me, and now i'm talking to the owner and he better be careful because i do have all the time and resources to put him out of business.

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, when i"m not in a financial position to fk it up i generally lay down pretty low and don"t screw things up, missing AD'S and blame the computer wasn't working that day is not going to fly with me, i got in this country with 13 buks and a back pack don"t tell me about not being in a financial position, i can barely afford to fart went i get here, and i can give you every past job phone number with out a doubt, im a straight fella i work my ass off and wen i do make a mistake i put my chest and take the bullet, my responsibilities are mine and not any one else, wen i start the thread it was because i feel sad about this guy, and was trying to get my mind on the side, but at this point he just plain lye to me, and now i'm talking to the owner and he better be careful because i do have all the time and resources to put him out of business.

If that is your mind set, you have a great day.

 

[skyflea]

BTW Tom, he did have a chance, get the crap done, flight the plane i pay the prop, and you help me out on the ferry ( he was bringing the plane down at 250 X day + xpenses)
and he told me ok i bring you the left over money from the fuel check< at that point i told him the change on the fuel money was expected and was nice to talk to him and i cancel the check, some times people take me for a ride because of my thick accent when i speak but believe me my brain goes faster and thicker than my mount.

 

[skyflea]

what u expect me to do?????
just wonder how much u would give in the same situation

if that is the case fell free to get the annual done both AD'S and help a fella AP

 

[skyflea]

That's what i tough.

 

[Silvaire]

The holder of an IA is required by 14 CFR part 43, § 43.13, to
determine that all applicable ADs for aircraft, powerplants,
propellers, instruments, and appliances have been
accomplished. You must consider the following:
1. If the maintenance records indicate compliance with an AD,
the holder of an IA should make a reasonable attempt to
verify the compliance. It is not uncommon for a component
to have compliance with an AD accomplished and properly
recorded then later be replaced by another component on
which the AD has not been accomplished. The holder of an
IA is not expected to disassemble major components
(cylinders, crankcases, etc.) if adequate records of
compliance exist.
2. When the maintenance records do not contain indications of
AD compliance, the holder of an IA should:
a. Make the AD an item on a discrepancy list provided to
the owner, in accordance with 14 CFR part 43, § 43.11(b);
b. With the owner’s concurrence, do whatever disassembly
is required to determine the status of compliance; or
c. Obtain concurrence of the owner to comply with the AD.
3. Often, an AD calls for an inspection, with a modification or
inspection required at a later date. It is very important to
identify, in the maintenance record entry, the portion of the
AD complied with and the exact method of compliance.
4. 14 CFR part 91, § 91.417(a)(2)(v) requires each registered
owner or operator to keep a record of the current status of
applicable ADs. This status includes for each the method of
compliance, AD number, and revision date. If the AD involves
15 recurring action, the time and date should be recorded when
the next action is required. As a vital part of the services
performed, the holder of an IA may wish to provide the
owner with information he or she is expected to keep. (Refer
to appendix 1, figure 5.)
5. The owner should also be informed of any subsequent
requirements of an AD or whether a reinspection is required
at operating intervals other than at annual inspections.
Often, the subsequent requirements are at 100-hour
intervals and will need to be done whether or not the aircraft
is required to have 100-hour inspections. Where a
progressive inspection is involved, the approved program
should state how and when the AD review will be
accomplished. However, as a mechanic or IA, you should be
aware of an AD that is pending or due, and is not in the area
you are inspecting. It is good customer relations to inform
the owner or pilot of the situation.

Wow, that is just so fine and dandy ain't it?

Here's the bottom line - if you want to own and operate a machine that flys through the air then you are damn well responsible for it and anything that happens to it.

You know it is amusing how people of a certain political persuasion will hang by the neck in public an errant A&P Mechanic while simultaneously defending a kid who didn't put the lid of a McDonald's cup of coffee on tight enough.

Sometimes all you can do is laugh

 

[flyingron]

Of course having been the one flying an unairworthy aircraft, I'm not sure I'd go running to the FAA to advertise that fact.

 

[N801BH]

Of course having been the one flying an unairworthy aircraft, I'm not sure I'd go running to the FAA to advertise that fact.

To the best of my knowledge, the OP has NOT flown the plane, he only had it in the shop for the prebuy. He got a report back from the A&P that the plane was in good shape, he bought the plane based on that report. AND then the bad news that the A&P missed a VERY expensive AD and that omission led to him buying a plane that is unairworthy... I would be VERY PI$$ed too...

 

[Henning]

Wow, that is just so fine and dandy ain't it?

Here's the bottom line - if you want to own and operate a machine that flys through the air then you are damn well responsible for it and anything that happens to it.

You know it is amusing how people of a certain political persuasion will hang by the neck in public an errant A&P Mechanic while simultaneously defending a kid who didn't put the lid of a McDonald's cup of coffee on tight enough.

Sometimes all you can do is laugh

He was getting a prebuy, it wasn't his plane, he wasn't local, that's why he hired a professional license holding mechanic who agreed to provide a service for a fee and entered into a contract. He failed to meet the burden of his contract.

Here's the bottom line, if you want to be in business, you have to do what you say you are going to do and you have to take ownership of your errors because you are damn well legally responsible for them.

You know it's funny how people of a certain political persuasion have no business ethics or sense of accountability, willing to burn their brothers over a dollar and make their own industry/hobby just a little worse and keeping incompetence airborne, doesn't matter if that incompetence can get people killed.

As a mechanic I find it unconscionable to miss a prop AD, the failure of which has a high probability of turning into a fatal, as a pilot I find it disgusting and scary. The dude either has to learn or get out of the business. If he doesn't pay, how does he learn? If he refuses, he does not deserve to have his license and I personally feel I would have as a responsibility to fellow pilots to prevent him from killing them. How someone could NOT feel that way is just, well, pathetic.

 

[douglas393]

I think a number of lessons can be learned from this OP's experience:
1. Do your homework. Know what to expect so you can ask the right questions. I think there is enough blame to go around and things could have been done better, but if Skyflea did a little research on the plane, and found out what AD's, issues, etc there were this could have been avoided. I am sorry, but when I purchase any expensive item I do a lot of research on it prior to even going out to buy it. Then I ask a lot of questions, including ones I already know the answer to. It helps me learn who I can trust to give me honest opinions and who is trying to snow job me.
2. Choose who does your prebuy carefully. Use someone who you are familiar with and trust, or has been recommended to you by someone you trust. Make sure they are familiar with the model of the plane you re buying, but not with the plane itself. If you can be there when they do it, be there. If not, ask a lot of questions.
3. Expect the unexpected, and be prepared for it.
4. Buyer beware.

I hope this all works out in the end, and I think it will. I also think that with the amount of fustration and anger the OP is feeling right now, he maybe better served if instead of fanning his flames, he takes a less assaultive approach, and calls or visits the guy that did the prebuy, and tries to work out a compromise. It may no be perfect for both, but it may save a lot of heartache, and unnecessary drama in the future. Getting the FAA, and attorneys involved, can only lead to a lot of uncertainty and I can see many ways where both parties will lose in the end, and much fewer ways where either party will end up a winner. The OP may have tried this already, and if so I apologize.

Doug

 

[denverpilot]

For Tom... Lets say we are bleeding hearts and we feel for the mechanic.

How is he going to make the previous two years worth of missing the AD right? Falsify the logs?

He missed it in the pre-buy and it's pretty much game, set, and match. He could drag the previous IA who signed off into the mess, but the logs have been broken "too long" for it not to affect *someone* with FAA.

Apply for a Ferry Permit with the reason that the prop AD hasn't been compiled with for years?

What's the way out for the "poor" $12/hr screw-up guy?

I don't see one, but you seem to think there is a way that leaves the logs correct and the buyer whole. I'd love to hear what it is. 'Cause I'm missing it.

 

[Tom-D]

For Tom... Lets say we are bleeding hearts and we feel for the mechanic.

How is he going to make the previous two years worth of missing the AD right? Falsify the logs?

He can't, he is screwed if it goes to FSDO, I thought I made that point.

He missed it in the pre-buy and it's pretty much game, set, and match. He could drag the previous IA who signed off into the mess, but the logs have been broken "too long" for it not to affect *someone* with FAA.

Like I said, he's screwed, by a stupid mistake, ever made one ?

Apply for a Ferry Permit with the reason that the prop AD hasn't been compiled with for years?
You will not get one, the prop can be shipped to get it repaired/what ever.

What's the way out for the "poor" $12/hr screw-up guy?

There probably isn't any, other than take it to court and get an attachment to his wages. and that probably would take food out of his kids mouth, and would't get the prop fixed.

I don't see one, but you seem to think there is a way that leaves the logs correct and the buyer whole. I'd love to hear what it is. 'Cause I'm missing it.

This is a case that would have been better avoided than repaired, the best that can be expected is a lesson, then move on.

now do we expect the new owner to get a free prop AD compliance or overhaul?

Would you as a the buyer have known all the ADs that apply to the aircraft you are buying ?

Wouldn't you have a buyer's agreement that would handle this type of screw up?

Should we as a group crucify the A&P with out hearing their story?

Believe me, stuff like this does not end with every body happy.

 

[N801BH]

.......
Believe me, stuff like this does not end with every body happy.

..

Well , as it stands right now the OP has paid more money then the plane is worth regarding a bad prop..........

And.............. This stuff would not have happened if the A&P had not screwed up... To say a judgement would take the food out of his kids mouth is troubling at best and downright grandstanding to play the sympathy card for the incompetent mechanic that created this mess..

I guess we will find out tomorrow if the A&P, and/or the FBO makes the OP whole.. If not the OP needs to drive STRAIGHT to the FSDO and make some BIG waves...

Let the heads roll where they may.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

What's the way out for the "poor" $12/hr screw-up guy?

There probably isn't any, other than take it to court and get an attachment to his wages. and that probably would take food out of his kids mouth, and would't get the prop fixed.

This is a case that would have been better avoided than repaired, the best that can be expected is a lesson, then move on.

now do we expect the new owner to get a free prop AD compliance or overhaul?

Would you as a the buyer have known all the ADs that apply to the aircraft you are buying ?

Wouldn't you have a buyer's agreement that would handle this type of screw up?

Should we as a group crucify the A&P with out hearing their story?

Believe me, stuff like this does not end with every body happy.

Nope -- it sure doesn't. And that hits both the cost of running a business and owning an airplane.

Should we be taking all the food out of the owner's kids mouth instead? This wasn't in the budget, and he took due care in having a professional inspect the plane.

I do believe that there is probably some shared ownership here, and the negotiation of the split number without resorting to paying attorneys is probably the best path if the A&P won't pony up right away.

 

[Tom-D]

..

Well , as it stands right now the OP has paid more money then the plane is worth regarding a bad prop..........

I wouldn't believe that until I saw a proper accounting.

 

[skyflea]

Tom, i make the offer on the plane based on his pre buy, i do know and have the list of AD'S on the plane, he ensure me i only have one AD to comply, and like i told you before, i have all the emails and txt messages, if you are so worry about his money please do me a favor go get annual and prop AD done for him and we all friends, i do have the money for the prop but that's not the point, sounds like you are a very caring guy so fell free to pitch in some funds to help him out. The point is i don't care he miss the ad on prebuy, he was acting on bad faith knowing he miss the dam AD'S twice before , he try to screw me period.