Big Screw Up get the Faa involved or not?

Henning said:
Yeah, but he never loses his A&P, he only loses his IA; those are the only privileges he violated. Any lawyer will see to that.
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Agreed.... That shoots the theory down that some posters said his kids would go hungry... The A&P can turn wrenches, just not use his IA authority.
 
When you loose the A&P, you loose the IA also, when you apply to get it back you must comply with 65.91 (C) 1.

That means you must have had your A&P for 3 years. which would not be true if it were suspended or revoked.

Each year we A&P-IAs are required to make application for renewal and must be able to prove we have been active in the industry for the prior 2 years to qualify as actively engaged.

two different requirements between 65.91 (C) 1 and 2 that is why they are not combined as 1 paragraph.

If you do not believe me on this, call FSDO and ask them.

With that, I'm done.
 
An IA is not required to do a pre-buy inspection therefore he did not utilize it for this particular job. He may be guilty of missing the AD's on the last annual but unless he has done the past five annuals so is somebody else. The owner/operator would also be in violation during that period.
 
Tom-D said:
When you loose the A&P, you loose the IA also, when you apply to get it back you must comply with 65.91 (C) 1.

That means you must have had your A&P for 3 years. which would not be true if it were suspended or revoked.

Each year we A&P-IAs are required to make application for renewal and must be able to prove we have been active in the industry for the prior 2 years to qualify as actively engaged.

two different requirements between 65.91 (C) 1 and 2 that is why they are not combined as 1 paragraph.

If you do not believe me on this, call FSDO and ask them.

With that, I'm done.
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Why would he lose his A&P when he didn't violate any of the A&P standards? He will lose his IA which he should for not fulfilling his obligations and duties under that rating. The guy has not the ability and/or honesty to hold an inspection rating.
 
Henning said:
Why would he lose his A&P when he didn't violate any of the A&P standards? He will lose his IA which he should for not fulfilling his obligations and duties under that rating. The guy has not the ability and/or honesty to hold an inspection rating.
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Because they can not revoke or suspend an authorization, they can the A&P.

loose the A&P loose the IA. Get the A&P back in 90 days, get the IA back in 3 years.

that is the way it is done. Call FSDO if you don't believe me.
 
Tom-D said:
Because they can not revoke or suspend an authorization, they can the A&P.

loose the A&P loose the IA. Get the A&P back in 90 days, get the IA back in 3 years.

.
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Hmmm.. This A&P has REALLY screwed the:eek: pooch..
 
N801BH said:
Hmmm.. This A&P has REALLY screwed the:eek: pooch..
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Maybe but not because of the pre-buy, which has nothing to do with releasing for service. Any FAA action would be retro to the last annual and would have nothing to do with what transpired during this sale.
 
Silvaire said:
Maybe but not because of the pre-buy, which has nothing to do with releasing for service. Any FAA action would be retro to the last annual and would have nothing to do with what transpired during this sale.
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Agreed.......

What will sink him is the OP said that same A&P missed the AD at least TWICE..
Like I said a few posts back... If his signature is in a log book, blessing an annual and an AD was missed,,, he is in hot water.... If it happened more then once then he is TOAST...
 
N801BH said:
Agreed.......

What will sink him is the OP said that same A&P missed the AD at least TWICE..
Like I said a few posts back... If his signature is in a log book, blessing an annual and an AD was missed,,, he is in hot water.... If it happened more then once then he is TOAST...
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This was in an FBO was it not?

do we know this A&P was the one who returned the annual inspection to service?

He may have been protecting his bosses as$ who did finally bail the mess out.
 
Read the AD, if it's true that the prop is 25 years old and has never been touched (as stated in an earlier post) then it was out of compliance as of October 2005. So if the aircraft was continuously operated then there are FIVE signatures in the logbook that have missed it and the previous owner/operator is in hot water too.

....if someone were to draw the FAA into it, that is.
 
Tom-D said:
This was in an FBO was it not?

do we know this A&P was the one who returned the annual inspection to service?

He may have been protecting his bosses as$ who did finally bail the mess out.
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Tom.. WE both don't know more then what the OP posted here.... .

Re-read the entire thread to draw your own conclusion.
 
Its amazing the owner of this company need to hire Tom and Silvaire,
Is not log book missing you reading wherever you want to read, please read back
is no point to keep going on this he **** ed up and hes paying end of discussion.
And i don't care about his kids or is grandma.
Sad to see the way the American Honor is dying, that was one of the biggest things i admire when i got here 20 years ago, is not way i would close a deal on a hand shake any more. Quit defending a mediocre mechanic and worst a theft employee, i slots of points you guys omit on defense of this crock.

1) i pay for full blown pre buy, have what he suppose to look on writing
2) no logs are missing ( my ap tough log was missing do to the amount of information missing about prop on last 2 annuals
3)this guys offers me ferry service and after getting my check for the fuel ask me to lye ( he was doing something totally prohibited by his employer)
4) he was dumb ass that sign the plane twice in a row with out the 2 add comply

SO I DON'T CARE CRAP ABOUT HIS KIDS HIS GRAND MA OR GRAND PA
and is not fault on my part im a business man i buy and sell many planes every dam year
and if you are crock and try to fk me i will fk u twice.

JUST DROP IT A CROCK IS A CROCK
 
Tom-D said:
That ain't the prop that was on it when I looked at it.


ducks and runs
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:rofl::lol::rolleyes:..

Good one...

But ,that brings up another "touchy" subject about A&P's.....

99.% of the A&P's I know have told me the VERY first thing they are taught in A&P school is to NEVER, EVER engrave your name on your tools.. We all know why...:rolleyes:;)

That alone says a ton about the trade.:mad2::mad:
 
Tom-D said:
That ain't the prop that was on it when I looked at it.


ducks and runs
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WILL NOT USING YOUR SERVICES ANY TIME SOON:rofl:

you just prove the point of this thread A & P'S are not accountable any more.

im out

peace
 
Silvaire said:
An IA is not required to do a pre-buy inspection therefore he did not utilize it for this particular job. He may be guilty of missing the AD's on the last annual but unless he has done the past five annuals so is somebody else. The owner/operator would also be in violation during that period.
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don't really give a dam how many people go down
i expect to get what i pay for and i pay a premium price for the plane reflecting this clown pre buy, now if you want i can send you his paypal account and you can HELP PAY FOR MY SPANKING NEW PROP :rofl:
 
Tom-D said:
Because they can not revoke or suspend an authorization, they can the A&P.

loose the A&P loose the IA. Get the A&P back in 90 days, get the IA back in 3 years.

that is the way it is done. Call FSDO if you don't believe me.
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Sounds fair enough. That doesn't put him out of work for three years, it puts him out for three months. It limits his income and opportunity for three years as it should. All he had to do was make good on the cost of his error and he could have avoided it all. That message has to get across, you have to run a straight business, do your job correctly, and own your mistakes.

Would you think offering the price of the overhaul and install labor against a retail price Top Prop upgrade? That gets him a couple buck ahead on doing the right thing.
 
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Henning said:
Sounds fair enough. That doesn't put him out of work for three years, it puts him out for three months.
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know anyone who has 3 months of vacation on the books? if not, he is going away, or would you hire him back?
 
Tom-D said:
know anyone who has 3 months of vacation on the books? if not, he is going away, or would you hire him back?
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If he's any good as a mechanic he will keep working right through it all. The only thing he is not permitted to do is provide a signature, nothing prevents him from providing labor. If any of his crap had come back on me I might dock him some pay as well. If he is crap for a mechanic and/or employee, I would take this opportunity to get rid of them.
 
N801BH said:
Cute...:no:..

I am still betting the FAA will get the last laugh on this fiasco..:yes::yesnod:
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Who called the FAA?

If we step back and look at this fiasco I can see an error was made and because of it skyflea has a "spanking new prop" that he otherwise would not have had. So it would be pretty dumb to call in the FAA, begin an investigation and have his new airplane, spanking new prop and all, grounded.

If you don't want to find out what a sleeping pit bull will do when you poke him with a stick - don't poke him with stick.

Let sleeping dogs lie.
 
Silvaire said:
Who called the FAA?

If we step back and look at this fiasco I can see an error was made and because of it skyflea has a "spanking new prop" that he otherwise would not have had. So it would be pretty dumb to call in the FAA, begin an investigation and have his new airplane, spanking new prop and all, grounded.

If you don't want to find out what a sleeping pit bull will do when you poke him with a stick - don't poke him with stick.

Let sleeping dogs lie.
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What's the first thing the FAA airworthiness inspector will do when they walk thru the door?


answer

ask for the maintenance records for the aircraft, engine, and prop.

Then they will photograph each page that concerns them.

after that they will want to know who flew that aircraft during the period the ADs were not complied with.

then they will want to see the pilots logs of each pilot, plus their medical, and any other endorsements or ratings the aircraft requires. and photograph them too.

After that they will have each person sigh the form that says they have been informed of the pilots bill of rights.

Then they will want to inspect the aircraft.

after all that they go away and the concerned parties wait for the receipt required letters to arrive.
 
Tom-D said:
What's the first thing the FAA airworthiness inspector will do when they walk thru the door?


answer

ask for the maintenance records for the aircraft, engine, and prop.

Then they will photograph each page that concerns them.

after that they will want to know who flew that aircraft during the period the ADs were not complied with.

then they will want to see the pilots logs of each pilot, plus their medical, and any other endorsements or ratings the aircraft requires. and photograph them too.

After that they will have each person sigh the form that says they have been informed of the pilots bill of rights.

Then they will want to inspect the aircraft.

after all that they go away and the concerned parties wait for the receipt required letters to arrive.
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Ha ha.... Funny man...:rofl:

skyflea don't care... he has NEVER flown the plane...
 
N801BH said:
Ha ha.... Funny man...:rofl:

skyflea don't care... he has NEVER flown the plane...
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I don't see your humor, it's basically the way it goes down.

The big looser here will be the FBO, they will get the audit from hell.
 
Tom-D said:
It's actually FAR 39 the aircraft must be in compliance with FAR 39 to be airworthy.
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yes it does, however, FAR 39 says nothing about who the responsibilty falls on.

FAR 43, on the other hand does.
 
Tom-D said:
I don't see your humor, it's basically the way it goes down.

The big looser here will be the FBO, they will get the audit from hell.
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No Humor sir.....
I simply pointed out that skyflea will not suffer the rath of the FAA as he has NOT flown the plane..

At first you tried to lay the guilt trip on skyflea by saying the A&P's kids will go hungry.. Now you are trying to shift that guilt trip using the FBO as your crying towel......

Just come out and say it ol buddy..... The mechanic /A&P really screwed up and deserves what is coming to him.... If the FBO gets dragged into the mess then, they hired said mechanic, they shared in his productivity and now they get to share in the penalty of his mistakes...

Why is it so hard for you to realize that.:dunno::dunno::mad2:
 
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Two issues at stake here IMHO.

Punishment doesn't fit the crime. If the guy can't make a living for three years for missing something, I'm not sure that matches up with the comparative slap-on-the-wrist pilots usually get if their attitude is reasonable.

However... And point number two... Someone with an IA should be held to a higher standard than a regular A&P.

Tough situation all around. If the IA is slipping or known in the local community as being a paper pusher, I'd be more inclined toward the hang-'em-high crowd. If he's usually conscientious and does good work, not so much.

I don't like the ferry request. That makes it smell more wrong to me, overall. Feels "desperate" so to speak. If its been wrong for years, I wouldn't want to recommend anyone fly it anywhere, including myself.
 
denverpilot said:
Two issues at stake here IMHO.

Punishment doesn't fit the crime. If the guy can't make a living for three years for missing something, .
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Nate.... I could be wrong here.. but.. He looses his A&P license for 90 days only,,, and supposably it will take 3 years for him to re-apply for an IA add on.... I think Henning said he can still turn wrenches during the 90 days too, he just can't sign any paperwork....:dunno:
 
N801BH said:
No Humor sir.....
I simply pointed out that skyflea will not suffer the rath of the FAA as he has NOT flown the plane..

At first you tried to lay the guilt trip on skyflea by saying the A&P's kids will go hungry.. Now you are trying to shift that guilt trip using the FBO as your crying towel......

Just come out and say it ol buddy..... The mechanic /A&P really screwed up and deserves what is coming to him.... If the FBO gets dragged into the mess then, they hired said mechanic, they shared in his productivity and now they get to share in the penalty of his mistakes...

Why is it so hard for you to realize that.:dunno::dunno::mad2:
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You only know one side of the story, yet you are willing to hang the A&P.

I think that shows a bias towards the mechanic.

Point 2, you try to make me look bad when I think we are missing a lot of the story, and don't believe we should rush to judgement.

I believe you should examine your own motives and show me where I made excuses for the A&P.
 
denverpilot said:
Two issues at stake here IMHO.

Punishment doesn't fit the crime. If the guy can't make a living for three years for missing something, I'm not sure that matches up with the comparative slap-on-the-wrist pilots usually get if their attitude is reasonable.

However... And point number two... Someone with an IA should be held to a higher standard than a regular A&P.
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That is where I am with this, plus we are held to a higher standard, What other test in aviation must you wait 90 days to retest after failure? What pilot rating requires in process audits of the pilot facilities and procedures? Yes I know about BFRs. What pilot rating must you get refresher training each year or be actively engaged to get renewed?

When this A&P-IA has due process, he will loose the A&P and the IA, and a few other people will go down with him.

I guess that's what Ben sees as justice. I simply don't see the point.
 
Tom-D said:
I don't see your humor, it's basically the way it goes down.

The big looser here will be the FBO, they will get the audit from hell.
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They deserve it, they dropped the ball, hard. They failed at their duty. The big winner here will be the paying customer who will get what they are paying for from now on. We can't support and protect bad businesses, the GA community is too small and poor for that. It is part of what has to change if GA is going to survive.
 
Man, if I have to read another post about 'FAA this' or FAA that' I think I'm gonna barf. I don't give a hoot about the FAA except to the extent that they certified this guy as an A&P, and he and we relied on that certificate to perform a professional service, for which he was paid. Said service was substandard and he later admitted as such to the buyer. Whether he admitted it for a good reason, so as to insure things were set right, or whether he admitted it to hold up the owner for a prop rebuild isn't a factor.

The ONLY thing I care about is that the guy was hired to do a professional job based on his knowledge, experience and his FAA certification. One of the reasons we have A&Ps is that pilots and owners cannot be cognizant of every detail of an airframe and powerplant. That's why the FAA instituted the A&P and IA system, and why we put our trust in them as an agent.

Google 'agency relationship' and it'll all become clear. The agent is legally obligated to use their skills and professional expertise to protect the interest of the client. It is well codified in the standard canons of law practice, and if taken before a judge or magistrate the A&P would be hung out to dry civilly for causing material damage to the buyer.

Could the buyer have done more? Sure - he could have hired another expert to check the first expert. Then, he could have hired one more expert to check the work of the guy checking the first guy. He could have sent the plane back to the mfg and had them take it down to it's constituent components and measure every one of them for conformance to type. Of course, this is all hogwash. He bought a used plane from an old guy, and took the extra step of having someone of greater skill, experience and authorization to check it. His 'expert' failed big time. I guess we always blame the victim in this country - 'he should have known better',, 'he should have spent more on the prebuy',, 'he should have done blah blah blah'. Yeah, well if the A&P had done his JOB, the one he was paid for he wouldn't now be eating the cost of the prop/repairs. Sorry, I'm not convinced that the buyer is in any way culpable. Pretty sure the tort system would back me up on that.
 
Dear i spend 10 hrs off labor at 65 dollars x hours on my prebuy, i do have a writing list on what was included on my prebuy, you guys trying to turn this around are hitting a wall, i have every single txt msge and email with this AP, im actually protecting his reputation not disclosing the txt messages asking me to lye to his boss about the ferry flight ( remember he have a fuel check ready to cash) after i cancel the check( and spend another 30 bucks ) he really understood i was ****ed and i mind business , i do i pay for lawyer services no matter what, so my lawyers are ready to go any time,


for donations to the AP child fundation contact me for paypal account :incazzato::lol::idea:
 
[QUOTE.........
for donations to the AP child fundation contact me for paypal account :incazzato::lol::idea:[/QUOTE]

Ha.... Like any of the ones who are defending this A&P and his pi$$ poor work ethic are going to send a penny. :no::nonod::no:... Talk is CHEAP ya know..;)
 
skyflea said:
...you guys trying to turn this around are hitting a wall...
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Wait a minute pal, you posted here first telling us about the "Big screw up" and asking if you should call the FAA or not?

All we've done is point out that there are some big holes in your story and explain what would likely happen if you did involve the Feds. We've also tried to analyze the situation with the AD and why it slipped under the radar.

If you don't want advice then don't ask for it.
 
Silvaire said:
Wait a minute pal, you posted here first telling us about the "Big screw up" and asking if you should call the FAA or not?

All we've done is point out that there are some big holes in your story and explain what would likely happen if you did involve the Feds. We've also tried to analyze the situation with the AD and why it slipped under the radar.

If you don't want advice then don't ask for it.
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This whole thread consisted of a unhappy customer bitchin about his A&P/

So lets just linch the unlucky bastard, run his wife off, and burn his house for not making all his customers happy.
 
Tom, I think skyflea should call the Feds and find out for himself what it feels like to have an aircraft you just bought, with a brand spanking new propeller, impounded by the government pending investigation.
 
Silvaire said:
Tom, I think skyflea should call the Feds and find out for himself what it feels like to have an aircraft you just bought, with a brand spanking new propeller, impounded by the government pending investigation.
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Personal opinion.....

I don't think they would do that. They'd get all the pilots that flew an unairworthy aircraft, plus the FBO, and the A&P. and site them for their part in this.

Skyfle would probably get away scott free, but when he tries to gat any work done, he'll have a difficult time finding a FBO who hasn't heard of the trouble he cause.
 
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