Biannual flight review for a recently recently certified Flight Instructor.

[CaptRon]

I was certified as a CFI, II on 20 August 2019. My last Biennial flight review was May 2018. Am I "due" for a biennial May 2020?

Alternatively has the FAA relaxed Biennial flight reviews due to covid19?

Can't seem to find a way to get one while social distancing.

 

[RyanB]

I was certified as a CFI, II on 20 August 2019. My last Biennial flight review was May 2018. Am I "due" for a biennial May 2020?

No.

 

[kath]

From 61.56: "Flight Review", which lists things that reset the clock, including:
(d) (2) A practical test conducted by an examiner for the issuance of a flight instructor certificate, an additional rating on a flight instructor certificate, renewal of a flight instructor certificate, or reinstatement of a flight instructor certificate.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Sounds like you did one of the easily-interpreted exceptions in 61.58(d)...

(2)A practical test conducted by an examiner for the issuance of a flight instructor certificate, an additional rating on a flight instructor certificate, renewal of a flight instructor certificate, or reinstatement of a flight instructor certificate.

 

[Salty]

Seems like a CFI should know this answer.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Seems like a CFI should know this answer.

Yah, and know not to call it either 'biannual' or 'biennial'.

 

[Bellanca_Pilot]

Yah, and know not to call it either 'biannual' or 'biennial'.

Just a Flight Review. Make sure you know what a TCA and TRSA is next review.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MauleSkinner]

Just a Flight Review. Make sure you know what a TCA and TRSA is next review.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Are you suggesting that they both exist or that neither exists?

 

[Brad Z]

From 61.56: "Flight Review", which lists things that reset the clock, including:
(d) (2) A practical test conducted by an examiner for the issuance of a flight instructor certificate, an additional rating on a flight instructor certificate, renewal of a flight instructor certificate, or reinstatement of a flight instructor certificate.

Interestingly, this was not the case until November 2013, after rulemaking added practical tests for flight instructor certificates to the list of practical tests that qualified as a substitution for a flight review. As such, there are likely flight instructors out there who aren't aware that a CFI checkride counts towards your flight review.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Interestingly, this was not the case until November 2013, after rulemaking added practical tests for flight instructor certificates to the list of practical tests that qualified as a substitution for a flight review. As such, there are likely flight instructors out there who aren't aware that a CFI checkride counts towards your flight review.

But my guess is that a CFI who took a checkride within the last year should be familiar with the current reg.

 

[Brad Z]

But my guess is that a CFI who took a checkride within the last year should be familiar with the current reg.

...or at least know where in part 61 to go and find the answer.

Ironic that the OP's screen name is CaptRon.

 

[Salty]

Regardless of when the rules changed, and when you became a CFI, if you were my CFI, I'd expect you to know this without looking it up.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Regardless of when the rules changed, and when you became a CFI, if you were my CFI, I'd expect you to know this without looking it up.

I’d expect my instructor to take the 60 seconds and look it up...I’ve gotten too much bad info over the years from people who “knew” the regs (and quite frankly, given some out myself).

taking much longer than a minute to look it up is what indicates a lack of proper regulatory knowledge to me.

 

[Doug Reid]

I thought any time you upgrade your rating, that check ride was considered a flight review.

 

[Brad Z]

Regardless of when the rules changed, and when you became a CFI, if you were my CFI, I'd expect you to know this without looking it up.

Full disclosure: I write part 61 regulations for a living and I can’t remember every regulation off the top of my head, particularly one that I haven’t dealt with recently or doesn’t pertain to me. In the case of 61.56, I’d expect an instructor to know how recent his or her last flight review must be in order to act as PIC, and be aware what a flight review is, and that certain events qualify as meeting the requirements for a flight review. I could forgive an instructor for having to look up 61.56 to confirm that a practical test counts towards the requirement.

However, wouldn’t forgive the instructor for pullIng out the AIM and fervently searching through the manual trying to find the chapter on flight reviews, lol.

 

[RussR]

I thought any time you upgrade your rating, that check ride was considered a flight review.

It is. But in the past, the regulation said you had to pass a practical test for a pilot rating (or similar wording). A CFI certificate is an instructor rating, not a pilot rating, so it didn't count. The Chief Counsel said as much (which was the correct interpretation at the time, in my opinion - not the desired interpretation, but the correct one given the way it was written). Since that wasn't the intent, the FAA changed the regulation as part of another re-write to specifically include CFI checkrides, as it is now.

That said, back then lots of people just assumed that the CFI checkride counted and so were probably not actually legal (I don't blame them, you had to read it pretty closely and with some background knowledge). And that bad information, like "running oversquare" was just passed down.

 

[Brad Z]

I thought any time you upgrade your rating, that check ride was considered a flight review.

It is now. Prior to November 2013 a flight instructor practical test didn’t count because it wasn’t a practical test for a pilot certificate or rating (a flight instructor certificate is not a pilot certificate).

 

[dmspilot]

Regardless of when the rules changed, and when you became a CFI, if you were my CFI, I'd expect you to know this without looking it up.

Expecting someone to know every rule immediately upon its publication without looking it up is more challenging for those of us without clairvoyance.

 

[TommyG]

Expecting someone to know every rule immediately upon its publication without looking it up is more challenging for those of us without clairvoyance.

sorry this is something a CFI should know without thought. If it changed 6 months ago, I can see going into the regs and checking.

 

[Doc Holliday]

"The front porch of aviation"..............

 

[Ravioli]

Seems like a helpful answer could be provided without the judgmental comments.

Looks like the helpful answer has been provided.

 

[dmspilot]

sorry this is something a CFI should know without thought. If it changed 6 months ago, I can see going into the regs and checking.

So I should only have to check to see if it changed if it recently changed. Not sure how I'm supposed to know if it changed or not if I don't check. Awesome mastery of logic displayed right there.

Thinking you know things without looking them up is what leads to inaccurate knowledge, misconceptions, myths, old wive's tales, urban legends, and so on. And that info gets passed down again and again getting more corrupt each time like a game of telephone because people aren't looking stuff up.

OP should be expected to be able to look stuff up. OP should not be expected to have every single thing he ever learned memorized.

 

[Salty]

So I should only have to check to see if it changed if it recently changed. Not sure how I'm supposed to know if it changed or not if I don't check. Awesome mastery of logic displayed right there.

Thinking you know things without looking them up is what leads to inaccurate knowledge, misconceptions, myths, old wive's tales, urban legends, and so on. And that info gets passed down again and again getting more corrupt each time like a game of telephone because people aren't looking stuff up.

OP should be expected to be able to look stuff up. OP should not be expected to have every single thing he ever learned memorized.

Student on short final: now what do I do?
CFI: let me look it up and make sure nothing has changed.

getting a license is going to be expensive if I have to pay my CFI to look everything up right before teaching me. wouldnt it be easier to just look it up myself? Not sure what the instructor is there for in this way of thinking.

 

[dmspilot]

Student on short final: now what do I do?
CFI: let me look it up and make sure nothing has changed.

Yeah, knowing how to fly is totally the same thing as having the entire 14 CFR and every revision instantly memorized. My bad.

 

[Salty]

Yeah, knowing how to fly is totally the same thing as having the entire 14 CFR and every revision instantly memorized. My bad.

That whooshing sound is my point flying Right on past you.

 

[DoubleD]

When I got my CFI in 2005 I assumed it counted as a FR. When I read something on the internet that cast doubt on that, I called the local FSDO (which shall remain anonymous) and asked. The person I talked to put me on the speaker phone with several others and they acted like I had a screw loose. "Of course it counts" was the consensus of the FSDO guys in 2005. Lots of confusion about this. I acted as if it counted, got a FR in two years, and motored on.

 

[RyanB]

POA at it's finest.

I know it.

I’ve met quite a few members from this site and you know as well as I do, that the noisiest ones are often times the quietest in person. I don’t put too much weight on the things they say because of it. Keyboard warriors will be keyboard warriors.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Student on short final: now what do I do?
CFI: let me look it up and make sure nothing has changed.

getting a license is going to be expensive if I have to pay my CFI to look everything up right before teaching me. wouldnt it be easier to just look it up myself? Not sure what the instructor is there for in this way of thinking.

If pilots could read for themselves, my job would be WAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY different.

 

[MauleSkinner]

POA at it's finest.

Someone asks a question and here we go. Maybe the OP was certified under 61.73 (g) and isn't as up to speed as most CFIs. CaptRon...maybe USAF, Army, USMC?

Even at that, it should take less time to look it up than to ask the question here.

but like I said, if pilots could read for themselves....

 

[Brad Z]

POA at it's finest.

Someone asks a question and here we go. Maybe the OP was certified under 61.73 (g) and isn't as up to speed as most CFIs. CaptRon...maybe USAF, Army, USMC?

Maybe not, who knows? Seems like a helpful answer could be provided without the judgmental comments.

My comment about his screen name was in regards to sharing the name with The prolific "Capt Ron" aka POAdeleted20 aka Ron Levy, who punched out of POA about five years ago. Ron never met a reg he didn't like to quote, and initiated a few FAA legal interpretations over the years. Ron was quite active but apparently got burnt out after 30k posts...

 

[schmookeeg]

sorry this is something a CFI should know without thought. If it changed 6 months ago, I can see going into the regs and checking.

Disagree. This is something an active primary CFI should know without thought. A CFI who is out of the game, or who teaches a specialty instead of primary, may well have no idea and want to check. "Just read the FARs" doesn't usually cover it, as they're written in fedspeak, and that so obtusely as to require 5-10 passes through it to grok it fully and construct exactly which 61.xxx.f.5.y.fu sub-sub-subparagraph applies to the specific situation which applies.

And now I know who to blame for it. Brad.

 

[brcase]

Regardless of when the rules changed, and when you became a CFI, if you were my CFI, I'd expect you to know this without looking it up.

How do you think CFI’s get to know all this stuff? Answer: mostly by not being shy about asking dumb questions and admitting what they don’t know. Then they look it and verify the answer. Occasionally we look it up 1st, but more often than not we look it up because we don’t believe what someone else told us. Passing the check ride just means he demonstrated the minimum level of knowledge required to become a CFI.

Brian

 

[TommyG]

Disagree. This is something an active primary CFI should know without thought. A CFI who is out of the game, or who teaches a specialty instead of primary, may well have no idea and want to check. "Just read the FARs" doesn't usually cover it, as they're written in fedspeak, and that so obtusely as to require 5-10 passes through it to grok it fully and construct exactly which 61.xxx.f.5.y.fu sub-sub-subparagraph applies to the specific situation which applies.

And now I know who to blame for it. Brad.

or something that a CFI that got his ticket less than a year ago is my point.

 

[Brad Z]

Disagree. This is something an active primary CFI should know without thought. A CFI who is out of the game, or who teaches a specialty instead of primary, may well have no idea and want to check. "Just read the FARs" doesn't usually cover it, as they're written in fedspeak, and that so obtusely as to require 5-10 passes through it to grok it fully and construct exactly which 61.xxx.f.5.y.fu sub-sub-subparagraph applies to the specific situation which applies.

And now I know who to blame for it. Brad.

They experimented with plain language regs with the sport pilot rule. No one liked it. I know I don't.

My assessment is that the regs get ugly from multiple amendments revisions over time. At some point you need to re-write the whole thing from scratch, but nobody wants to do that for obvious reasons. The last major re-write of part 61 was 1973.

 

[dmspilot]

That whooshing sound is my point flying Right on past you.

I didn't miss your point, I think it's stupid. And another logical fallacy. Having to look up one thing doesn't mean having to look up everything. Looking up subtle nuances of an FAA regulation doesn't equate to having to look up how to land.

 

[flyingron]

The "plain language" aspect isn't as annoying as the inane "question and answer" format.

The bigger issue is FAA folk that make interpretations that don't match the language of the regulation. Sheesh, you get to write your own rules with a minimum (and sometimes NO oversight) and you can't get it right without inventing some obscure interpretation.

 

[Salty]

I didn't miss your point, I think it's stupid. And another logical fallacy. Having to look up one thing doesn't mean having to look up everything. Looking up subtle nuances of an FAA regulation doesn't equate to having to look up how to land.

Seems you did miss my point. It wasn’t that you should know everything without looking it up. It was that you should know important things, like what are the required things for you to be legal to fly, for example, without looking them up. Granted, it’s just my opinion, but I’d want my CFI to be freshly versed on that sort of thing.

I think some people are caught up in the fact that to them this is a nuance. To the OP it didn’t appear to be a nuance of a CFI checkride, it was checkrides in general. But that is my interpretation of the OP, I could have been wrong.

 

[Salty]

I know it.

I’ve met quite a few members from this site and you know as well as I do, that the noisiest ones are often times the quietest in person. I don’t put too much weight on the things they say because of it.

Because of what? What is the “it” you are using in this case to pre-judge the “weight” of an opinion? Just trying to understand what you mean.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Seems you did miss my point. It wasn’t that you should know everything without looking it up. It was that you should know important things, like what are the required things for you to be legal to fly, for example, without looking them up. Granted, it’s just my opinion, but I’d want my CFI to be freshly versed on that sort of thing.

I think some people are caught up in the fact that to them this is a nuance. To the OP it didn’t appear to be a nuance of a CFI checkride, it was checkrides in general. But that is my interpretation of the OP, I could have been wrong.

I would say the “important” thing to know is that you need a flight review, and when it needs to happen. Exceptions to the flight review requirement are a “nuance” that’s worth looking up rather than memorizing.

whether or not it was part of his checkride is irrelevant. He may have even looked it up for the checkride. But even that doesn’t mean it should be committed to memory.

 

[AKBill]

I'm sorry the OP posted that question. Congrats on the CFI rating. Hope you don't have thin skin...