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Albany Tom
Being based at an airport that doesn’t sell fuel?
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rwellner98
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rw2
That is *way* too harsh. I've based at an airport without fuel and absolutely made the decision to go straight to it and deal with getting fuel there later.
You are using too narrow a definition of "right decision", by far. Endangering safety is not the right decision, but it's entirely reasonable to optimize getting back to the home drome instead of refueling for a variety of reasons. In this example, beating the weather and having everything back in the hangar without enough fuel to launch again could be a *way* better choice than waiting hours (or overnight!) to make fuel stop, but end up with a plane that is capable of launching safely again.
Seems like several people on this thread haven't had to deal with anything but the most vanilla of scenarios, which is fine. But they then turn that into statements like "you shouldn't be flying" or "people who get stuck are the same ones who run out of fuel". It's super easy to come up with legitimate reasons to land without enough fuel to get back out and to an airport with a fuel farm.
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3G
I figured this statement would be made. Given the context of the OPs statements, I made an assumption of relative inexperience not just in ownership, but flying in general.
Burning past reserve fuel on a collision course with a fast moving weather system is not good novice-level ADM and I’m fine with disagreeing on that statement, but reality is those without experience tend to paint a rosier picture of their options than reality presents, hence the FAA’s position on PAVE as a risk-mitigation strategy.
Gasoline is always a interesting subject. I don't have the definite proof one way or another.
If I hangered at a airport with no fuel then I would have a storage tank in the back of a pickup truck and drive it all the time to the airport.
Luckily my home airport has fuel and I buy it even though it is a little higher than nearby airports.
I see and talk with plenty of folks who come by after hours and fill cans and drums for auto racing. They claim the 100LL performs just the same as 110 leaded racing gas.
We have no fence around the airport to keep them out. Management is OK with it.
I store a classic car with 100LL and it seems to last a long time.
My late friend owned a drag strip nearby for 40 years and owned 4-5 planes including my 172 that he would fly out of his drag strip.
He put a 10000 gallon underground storage tank in so he could buy 7500 gals(transport loads) of 100LL at the best price for his planes.
He would also sell that to his racers at his track for like 20+ years.
He says the aviation octane rating is different than motor octane or the R+M. He claimed the R+M rating was closer to 114-116 octane for 100LL?
I also use a 100 gallon tank in the back of my pickup. I got it in the 90s to combat octane fraud out on the highways when I did a lot of towing. Fill up here with known 92 octane and not have to buy rip off premium gas that wasn't premium gas on the highways.
I have filled my 100 gal tank at my airport with 100LL when the manager warned us that the next load of gas was going to cost more.
I have also hauled 2 plastic racing fuel jugs in the back of my 172 when fuel was over a 1 dollar per gallon cheaper somewhere far away and bring it back to use days later. Keep it in my pickup truck that I drive everyday. Racing jugs do not leak gas or fumes and pour safely.
Our airport does not want us to store 5 gallon cans of gas in our hangars and to fuel our planes outside if we use 5 gallon can/jugs.
My 2 cents.
If I hangered at a airport with no fuel then I would have a storage tank in the back of a pickup truck and drive it all the time to the airport.
Luckily my home airport has fuel and I buy it even though it is a little higher than nearby airports.
I see and talk with plenty of folks who come by after hours and fill cans and drums for auto racing. They claim the 100LL performs just the same as 110 leaded racing gas.
We have no fence around the airport to keep them out. Management is OK with it.
I store a classic car with 100LL and it seems to last a long time.
My late friend owned a drag strip nearby for 40 years and owned 4-5 planes including my 172 that he would fly out of his drag strip.
He put a 10000 gallon underground storage tank in so he could buy 7500 gals(transport loads) of 100LL at the best price for his planes.
He would also sell that to his racers at his track for like 20+ years.
He says the aviation octane rating is different than motor octane or the R+M. He claimed the R+M rating was closer to 114-116 octane for 100LL?
I also use a 100 gallon tank in the back of my pickup. I got it in the 90s to combat octane fraud out on the highways when I did a lot of towing. Fill up here with known 92 octane and not have to buy rip off premium gas that wasn't premium gas on the highways.
I have filled my 100 gal tank at my airport with 100LL when the manager warned us that the next load of gas was going to cost more.
I have also hauled 2 plastic racing fuel jugs in the back of my 172 when fuel was over a 1 dollar per gallon cheaper somewhere far away and bring it back to use days later. Keep it in my pickup truck that I drive everyday. Racing jugs do not leak gas or fumes and pour safely.
Our airport does not want us to store 5 gallon cans of gas in our hangars and to fuel our planes outside if we use 5 gallon can/jugs.
My 2 cents.
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JOhnH
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ignoring how you misrepresented what I said, I'll answer this:
Agree that if you are too tired to land you shouldn't take off. But if you are already in the air and you have a choice of landing elsewhere to get fuel, or going home and dealing with fuel tomorrow, you still have to land somewhere. Landing at home and dealing with it later sounds like the better choice to me.
But again I will point out that the question was about buying fuel in containers. The answer is "sure, that shouldn't be a problem". It should not sound like he is a lazy idiot that will sacrifice safety in the name of convenience.
rwellner98
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rw2
I don't see him saying he was burning past reserve to beat the weather. Everything he wrote is valid if he lands with a legal 31 minutes of reserve fuel. He would have then been legal and safe landing at his base, but also justifiably uncomfortable taking off again. It's that second flight that would be burning past reserve and precisely the problem he's trying to solve. Getting fuel to his plane so he can be safe and legal (the two being well aligned in this case) for that second flight.
I've been at an airport in West Virginia (Parkersburg? Clarksburg? I always get all those mixed up) when guys were coming in to fill up their racing cans. Didn't ask where they were going to use it.
The self-serve pump at HKY says not to fuel cans, only airplanes. I noticed it while filling up 5 gallon cans to take home (I was using these to calibrate the new electronic fuel senders on my MVP50).
The self-serve pump at HKY says not to fuel cans, only airplanes. I noticed it while filling up 5 gallon cans to take home (I was using these to calibrate the new electronic fuel senders on my MVP50).
Zeldman
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True.
Probably true on their engines. It is very easy to over octane a motor. Putting 110 race gas in a old VW bug will not be enough to outrun a 426 Hemi Superbird on the correct octane gas. But it realy sounds like those that make that claim need a new engine man.
That would be a untrue statement but a statement probably used to try to increase fuel sales to gullible racers.
Basically he reversed the math to meet what he wanted folks to believe. But again, with 100LL in the tank that is usually more octane than most weekend racers need. It is very possible to over octane an engine.
I don't know about anyone else's race engines but mine ran at more than 2700 rpm and it was constantly on and off full throttle during a race. Something avgas is not designed for.
If the feds found out an airport is selling off road avgas to non-aviation motors they can be fined bags full of $$$$ a day. And the users of avgas in non-aviation motors can land in a peck of trouble they really don't want. But I am no fed and I won't go squealin'...
donjohnston
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My comments were NOT about the OP. Other than commenting that the OP was overthinking the situation, I was responding to comments others made.
Another likely scenario is it's 45 minutes before sunset and I'm 30 minutes from home as I pass over the last airport with fuel. I have an hour's worth of fuel on board, so I'll land 15 minutes before sunset with 30 minutes of fuel remaining, legal and perfectly safe, but then not enough to fly the 30 minutes back to the airport with fuel.
If I land now and get fuel, it takes at least 20 minutes so I'd arrive home 5 minutes after sunset, not legal as I don't have lights. A big storm is forecast before sunrise tomorrow, leaving my plane stuck away from home for several days. The prudent, safe, and legal option is to fly home and deal with getting fuel afterwards.
I don't see how transporting fuel in and fueling an airplane from cans is any more dangerous than doing the same for a lawn mower, which is perfectly legal.
What regulation prohibits it? It's illegal to operate a car on a public highway with leaded fuel, but that's on the operator, not the person who sold the fuel... especially if it was dispensed into containers, how do they know what it's for?
Some airports do indeed say, "for aircraft only". I know people who have had an airport say no to filling their gas cans, until they said, "it's for an ultralight", and then it was allowed.
If I land now and get fuel, it takes at least 20 minutes so I'd arrive home 5 minutes after sunset, not legal as I don't have lights. A big storm is forecast before sunrise tomorrow, leaving my plane stuck away from home for several days. The prudent, safe, and legal option is to fly home and deal with getting fuel afterwards.
I don't see how transporting fuel in and fueling an airplane from cans is any more dangerous than doing the same for a lawn mower, which is perfectly legal.
What regulation prohibits it? It's illegal to operate a car on a public highway with leaded fuel, but that's on the operator, not the person who sold the fuel... especially if it was dispensed into containers, how do they know what it's for?
Some airports do indeed say, "for aircraft only". I know people who have had an airport say no to filling their gas cans, until they said, "it's for an ultralight", and then it was allowed.
tspear
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Timothy
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3G
OP never brought up reserves, just being too low to take off again. That can work out a bunch of different ways, but the underlying ADM of racing weather in a low fuel state is poor risk management because it starts to stack risk. Let’s say he makes it to the homedrome with 31mins reserve and can’t land, for whatever reason. Or the fuel planning didn’t account for a headwind. Or any number of other things that can and do happen. Now you’re in a low fuel state and having to race the “sudden bad weather” to the next airport.
But all this is based on hypotheticals, which is it’s okay to disagree.
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Bob Noel
I think people might have different ideas of what "racing bad weather" means.
Some might think it's getting down *just* as the field goes hard IMC. Others might think about it as wanting to land well in advance of adverse weather.
Some might think it's getting down *just* as the field goes hard IMC. Others might think about it as wanting to land well in advance of adverse weather.
Pinecone
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Aviation octane is close to MON. So 100LL should be around 105 - 107 AKI with an RON of 110 - 115
Pinecone
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Because legally it cannot be used in a on road vehicle, as road taxes have not been paid.
So acceptable answers are ultralight, airboat, boat, race car, off road buggy or ATV.
schmookeeg
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That's the second time that has been claimed in this thread. I've never heard of this. Why would a fed have ANY interest in what people fuel offroad vehicles with, or which fuel station provided that fuel?
The on-road car tax dodge issue is understandable, but I have never seen anyone rock up and fuel their toyota with avgas. I'd sort of love to see it, RIP their catalytic converter
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
I wasn't very clear on that, when I said fed I meant The Man, the federal government, not the FAA.
It all boils down to money, taxes. The man wants his share.
So if an airport is selling fuel for anything but an airplane, that airport could buy big tax troubles. I know it is done and like I said, I am no squealer, and I am fairly sure the man isn't interested in an airport that sells 5 gallons of avgas to someone that is going to use it in their lawn mower. Small fish vs big fish type thing.
Way back when I was in the fuel business taxes were collected on all fuel on and off road. Big companies that had off road equipment were able to deduct those taxes.
When I sold race gas, which was a off road fuel only, I was required to collect the road tax. I think, but don't really remember, that tax was a nickle a gallon. At the end of the season I provided a tax form so racers could deduct the road tax from their taxes. I am not sure if that is done anymore though. Also I am not sure if those folks appreciated all the record keeping I did for them. All part of the business.
The fuel is already taxed at the federal level. For commercial operators they have to keep up with the gallons bought, if they want to get a credit for fuel tax paid. Or is it the other way around? I know for off road diesel use, for mower and tractor, I get a refund on those gallons used for off road use.
How does The Man not get his share of a fuel tax if I put it into an airboat instead of an airplane?
Interestingly, there are several gas stations around here, near boat ramps, that sell 100LL and have a sign saying "Not for aviation use." People buy it for airboats.
tspear
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Timothy
There are multiple fuel taxes in play. Some federal, some state.
The most common ones affecting us are road and aviation. If you are not using the fuel for either one of those, yet you bought the fuel at a location which has those fees included. You can deduct the taxes already paid on your federal (and some state) income taxes.
The "man" only cares that you paid the taxes. The bad part is in multiple states, the fuel delivery is required to add the road taxes. It is incumbent on the FBO or Boat dock to actually file the paperwork and get a refund on the road taxes for the fuel purchased. From what I have seen many places do not make the effort and just add the aviation taxes on top. So when buying avgas, you are often paying the road taxes and the aviation taxes....
Tim
The most common ones affecting us are road and aviation. If you are not using the fuel for either one of those, yet you bought the fuel at a location which has those fees included. You can deduct the taxes already paid on your federal (and some state) income taxes.
The "man" only cares that you paid the taxes. The bad part is in multiple states, the fuel delivery is required to add the road taxes. It is incumbent on the FBO or Boat dock to actually file the paperwork and get a refund on the road taxes for the fuel purchased. From what I have seen many places do not make the effort and just add the aviation taxes on top. So when buying avgas, you are often paying the road taxes and the aviation taxes....
Tim
So if anything, you’re paying too much tax if you put the fuel into an airboat instead of an airplane. Why, then, would the government object?
schmookeeg
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I think most of my surprise comes from having run a 100LL self serve in California, and having satan's own state NOT be onerous on taxes/regulation compared to others. This is wrecking the traditional narrative.
We dgaf who bought our fuel, and nobody else did either. Nor did we track taxes. When the tank emptied, we wrote a large-type check and waited for the semi truck to bring a fresh 8800 gallons to us.
We dgaf who bought our fuel, and nobody else did either. Nor did we track taxes. When the tank emptied, we wrote a large-type check and waited for the semi truck to bring a fresh 8800 gallons to us.
schmookeeg
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The State. If we sell Avgas to some guy off the street and it winds up being used in something unapproved and it gets traced back to us, we’d be on the hook. Is the chance slim? Yes for sure, but it’s not something I care to engage in.
Sounds pretty bizarre. What exactly does the state statute say?
tspear
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Timothy
In the few cases I am aware of, the problem is environmental regulations. Most small boats are also regulated, largely at the state level from what I understand. And 100LL going right into the water is considered kinda bad.
Tim
tspear
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Curious, which state rule. When I lived in TN, I was at an airpark that was looking to do some additional development. We had the state environmental regulators out there a number of times, and more than once they were standing next to the self service fuel farm when a local would come up and fill up his/her ATV with 100LL. They never said a word.
Tim
You understand that airboats use airplane engines, right? They don’t dump fuel into the water.
Golf carts, lawn mowers, tractors, snow blowers.......
Pinecone
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Actually more likely the state would come after them first. But Feds would be involved as part of the road tax on fuel is a Federal taxThat's the second time that has been claimed in this thread. I've never heard of this. Why would a fed have ANY interest in what people fuel offroad vehicles with, or which fuel station provided that fuel?
The on-road car tax dodge issue is understandable, but I have never seen anyone rock up and fuel their toyota with avgas. I'd sort of love to see it, RIP their catalytic converter
Pinecone
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It doesn't matter what fuel. A sheen on the water is a violation and a fine. Even one drop of diesel will make a sheen.
Road tax applies to things used on the road. Most All gasoline and diesel is normally taxed at point of sale. Now if you put dyed (non taxed, farm, heating oil) diesel fuel, in an on road vehicle, expect a $10,000 fine if caught.
tspear
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Timothy
I have been on airboat tours a number of times, and many have exhaust systems going directly into the water or just above it.
In addition. based on comments online, the airboats are still running ROP and are dripping fuel out the exhaust.
My family has also owned speed boats and pontoon boats since the early 80s. No matter how careful you are, you always see gas and oil around power boats.
Tim
Then what difference does it make where you buy the fuel?
tspear
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Timothy
Avgas has TEL. a/k/a lead. Racing gas does not. Boat racing gas does not. Boat gas does not. You notice a theme here?
Tim
Yes, and airboats, using airplane engines, use avgas. You have yet to explain what difference it makes where the avgas is bought.
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Albany Tom
I shouldn't jump in, but it's the Internet. My somewhat informed guess is that nobody cares about avgas, because there's no financial incentive to put more expensive avgas is cars used on the highway; it's just silly. Now on the other hand....diverting heating fuel, farm or construction use diesel for over the road use because it does have lower taxes? That will wake up the people checking gas tanks for different colors.
tspear
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Timothy
As I said in #107
In many states avgas is effectively illegal in or around waterways. Does not matter where you buy it, you are running into environmental regulations and laws.
Tim
Really? Where? Must be tough on float planes....