B17 crash at Dallas.

eman1200 said:
can see the bank angle a little better in this one. also, while I'm no formation OR airshow specialist, what exactly is going on here? looks like a free for all....
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The way it usually works is they give one set of aircraft (say, the fighters) an altitude - maybe 1,000'. And they give the bombers another altitude - say 500'.

OR, they create "lanes" for the aircraft. "Fighters to stay 500' left of runway centerline, bombers to offset just right of the runway." Looked like these aircraft were supposed be separated laterally and the P-63 was following the other fighters and went wide on its turn. He was probably more focused on following the aircraft in front of him than maintaining awareness of other aircraft in the area.
 
SkyChaser said:
Wow. That was awful. It was like the pilot of the "incoming" plane didn't even see the B17.
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Or was fixated on another aircraft. There are now several videos, and some of them make you question how this could have happened.
 
Blind spot under the nose and wings, fixated on rejoining the fighters ahead after going too wide in a turn and losing the trail formation, a second or two loss of situational awareness. Seems pretty clear. The AirBoss briefing on the altitude assignments in the pattern will be interesting. When you compare it with Oshkosh shows, the bombers are usually much higher and wider than the pattern for the fighters. The videos look very busy in the box.
 
I refused a request by a new plane owner to do some "gentlemanly formation flying" after lunch on Thursday and have felt bad about it, since I was the wet blanket -- but I didn't know the other party, and I haven't done formation work in years, so was not comfortable with it.

This makes me feel a bit better about that choice.

Rotten video. RIP.
 
schmookeeg said:
I refused a request by a new plane owner to do some "gentlemanly formation flying" after lunch on Thursday and have felt bad about it, since I was the wet blanket -- but I didn't know the other party, and I haven't done formation work in years, so was not comfortable with it.

This makes me feel a bit better about that choice.

Rotten video. RIP.
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Nope absolutely good call. If I don’t know you or your flying skills. I am not partaking in anything like that.
 
Yeah, this one's easy, it's all right there in the videos. Unfortunately the answer may upset the white knights. My perspective is the dead don't have feelings, but I'll digress in the interest of those who need to be infantilized wrt pilot error and death. Post #39 pretty much hit the mark the closest. Please direct all complaints and calls for tar/feathering to him and his temerity in speaking out of order from the sanctioned sources. Fear not, I'm sure we'll have the appeal to authority alphabet soup clownshoes in soon, say 3-5 years, to describe the water for us long after anybody has stopped caring. :rolleyes:

schmookeeg said:
I refused a request by a new plane owner to do some "gentlemanly formation flying" after lunch on Thursday and have felt bad about it, since I was the wet blanket -- but I didn't know the other party, and I haven't done formation work in years, so was not comfortable with it.

This makes me feel a bit better about that choice.
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Oh you did the right thing. I do this s---t for a living and I never do .civ form with unvetted yahoos, even if they share my professional background. If I haven't flown 1v1 with you at work, I'm not doing wildly underpowered dissimilar .civ with you on the weekends for kicks. TETO and all that jazz.
 
Wow…. I worked in headquarters a little over a year ago. Inevitably know those guys.

What happened isn’t difficult to figure out.

This is gonna create one hell of a ripple, and probably rightfully so.
 
Tools said:
Wow…. I worked in headquarters a little over a year ago. Inevitably know those guys.

What happened isn’t difficult to figure out.

This is gonna create one hell of a ripple, and probably rightfully so.
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Yeah. It is a situation where one mistake could have severe impacts on the airshow industry and on the CAF in particular.
 
DAMN! :mad2:

I've seen both of these aircraft many times at CAF airshows over the years when they were based at MAF. Also seen Texas Raiders in the hangar at Conroe lots of times.

CAF has suffered a few accidents over the years with tragic loss of life and rare historic aircraft. The B-26 and HE-111 come immediately to mind.
 
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ETres said:
DAMN! :mad2:...and JU-52 come immediately to mind.
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You were probably thinking HE-111, but the idea is the same. Years ago, the CAF had a lot of cowboys. I think that culture has been largely corrected, but that doesn't mean a diligent and skilled pilot can't or won't make a mistake.
 
kyleb said:
You were probably thinking HE-111, but the idea is the same. Years ago, the CAF had a lot of cowboys. I think that culture has been largely corrected, but that doesn't mean a diligent and skilled pilot can't or won't make a mistake.
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It's gotten better, but there are still units with cowboys. Not saying that was the case here, but those clowns do still exist in the CAF.
 
kyleb said:
Yeah. It is a situation where one mistake could have severe impacts on the airshow industry and on the CAF in particular.
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Unfortunately yes.

The reason there were only 4 flying B-17s as of this morning is due to 9-0-9 and the insurance aftermath. The other airworthy B-17s were grounded by insurance.

Not hard to imagine what happens next.
 
Wow, that’s just awful!
Kenny Phillips said:
Or was fixated on another aircraft. There are now several videos, and some of them make you question how this could have happened.
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Yeah, seems pretty strange, as I’m not sure how the P-63 couldn’t see the B-17, but like always, it’s easy to armchair quarterback.
 
Wow! Talk about a direct hit. That's awful.
 
Words can’t convey the anger I feel.

I hope this is not the end of aviation living history.
 
TCABM said:
I hope this is not the end of aviation living history.
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I doubt that will happen. But it may significantly change how warbird shows are staged. That said, there is no plan you can make that isn't subject to someone making a mistake and blowing through all of the contingencies you allowed for.
 
TCABM said:
I hope this is not the end of aviation living history.
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That would be unfortunate but definitely not the real tragedy to come of this.
Fearless Tower said:
Unfortunately yes.

The reason there were only 4 flying B-17s as of this morning is due to 9-0-9 and the insurance aftermath. The other airworthy B-17s were grounded by insurance.

Not hard to imagine what happens next.
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I can’t believe that insurance would ground the others because of this- the B-17 crew isn’t at fault here in any way.
 
BaltCoFlyer said:
That would be unfortunate but definitely not the real tragedy to come of this.

I can’t believe that insurance would ground the others because of this- the B-17 crew isn’t at fault here in any way.
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Insurance underwriting is a weird thing. It's not that the B-17 crew was at fault, but when insurance companies get tired of paying out multi-million dollar claims, they take it out on whoever is left.

Some of those B-17s that are currently grounded are because they couldn't find anyone willing to insure. My fear is that the problem extends to other warbirds as well. I hope I'm wrong, but we've all heard the growing number of stories about insurance getting more problematic for GA in general.
 
I've seen lots of CAF airshows at MAF and also two Planes of Fame at Chino. As I recall - and I never thought about it before now - the spacing between aircraft is wider at PoF. Maybe it's an airspace thing - does Love restrict Redbird's spacing for an airshow of that size?
 
TCABM said:
I hope this is not the end of aviation living history.
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I hope it’s not either, but it wouldn’t surprise me if a dynamic shift will come of this. These airplanes aren’t cheap to operate, maintain and insure, and now it’s going to get even worse.
 
ok I'm just gonna say overall I find this pretty strange. this is the guy that runs the CAF, correct? he owns the 2 planes involved in the incident? I know if that was me, and people died in my airplanes that presumably I knew or was friends with, there is no way I could give this interview without choking up. I hate to say this guy seemed heartless, but he kind of did. and all that aside, wouldn't an OFFICIAL official be giving this interview, answering these questions? like a local cop/sheriff or something like that? just seemed weird to me, but as I always say, wtf do I know...

 
eman1200 said:
ok I'm just gonna say overall I find this pretty strange. this is the guy that runs the CAF, correct? he owns the 2 planes involved in the incident? I know if that was me, and people died in my airplanes that presumably I knew or was friends with, there is no way I could give this interview without choking up. I hate to say this guy seemed heartless, but he kind of did. and all that aside, wouldn't an OFFICIAL official be giving this interview, answering these questions? like a local cop/sheriff or something like that? just seemed weird to me, but as I always say, wtf do I know...

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I think he’s compartmentalizing. Denial if you will, to get through the day. That audience did not need him to be emotional.
 
eman1200 said:
ok I'm just gonna say overall I find this pretty strange. this is the guy that runs the CAF, correct? he owns the 2 planes involved in the incident? I know if that was me, and people died in my airplanes that presumably I knew or was friends with, there is no way I could give this interview without choking up. I hate to say this guy seemed heartless, but he kind of did. and all that aside, wouldn't an OFFICIAL official be giving this interview, answering these questions? like a local cop/sheriff or something like that? just seemed weird to me, but as I always say, wtf do I know...

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Stop it. I was there, I saw it, different people have different reactions. Hank is a good dude, trying to cope with what just happened just like we all are. He's a former military officer, he's seen stuff before.
 
I couldn't tell how tight the P-63 was turning... might it have been G-LOC?
 
eman1200 said:
ok I'm just gonna say overall I find this pretty strange. this is the guy that runs the CAF, correct? he owns the 2 planes involved in the incident? I know if that was me, and people died in my airplanes that presumably I knew or was friends with, there is no way I could give this interview without choking up. I hate to say this guy seemed heartless, but he kind of did. and all that aside, wouldn't an OFFICIAL official be giving this interview, answering these questions? like a local cop/sheriff or something like that? just seemed weird to me, but as I always say, wtf do I know...

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I think I understand where you're coming from, but, as the saying goes, "someone has to do it". This guy is the head of the CAF, and an ex-military pilot (officer). My military days are long past, but I believe (I don't know from current experience) that officers are still selected and trained to keep focused on the mission, even while the situation is "turning to worms" around them, and everyone else is coming to pieces. He has already made family notifications and is probably more than a little numb. It has been my experience that family notifications and briefings like this are one of life's worst experiences ...

On another note, no spectators or other folks on the ground were harmed (other than emotionally). As far as I know, airshow flight demonstrations are planned and routed such that no turns are made toward the spectators, and that the crowd is never overflown (except for certain USAF and USN flight demonstration teams). I believe these rules were established due to the tragic airshow crash that occurred at a USAF base overseas (I think in Germany).

R.I.P.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Stop it. I was there, I saw it, different people have different reactions. Hank is a good dude, trying to cope with what just happened just like we all are. He's a former military officer, he's seen stuff before.
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didn't say he wasn't a good dude. I've seen death before as well, doesn't mean if/when it happens again it won't impact me emotionally. and I can guarantee I wouldn't be doing interviews a couple of hours later. but that's just me.
 
RyanShort1 said:
That's literally his job.
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still not with you at all. I don't care what his job is. cops/sheriffs/FAA/NTSB/etc folks also have a job to do. but when something tragic like this happens, most of those other people, who most likely have far less ties to the people involved, tend to show AN OUNCE of emotion, which this guy did not.
 
There's a front angle video...it looks very clear in this video that the P-63 should have easily been able to see the B-17...not saying its definitive, but certainly looks like the P-63 would have had that B-17 filling its windscreen.

I'm not sure this will post/play, as it is Fecesbook:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1550294465423497
 
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eman1200 said:
still not with you at all. I don't care what his job is. cops/sheriffs/FAA/NTSB/etc folks also have a job to do. but when something tragic like this happens, most of those other people, who most likely have far less ties to the people involved, tend to show AN OUNCE of emotion, which this guy did not.
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Let it go
 
It appears the P-63, owned by the Dallas CAF, was a one off, only “P63F” model produced.

upload_2022-11-12_20-1-1.jpeg

If in fact it is the aircraft. RIP those lost today…
 
Country Flier said:
There's a front angle video...it looks very clear in that video that the P-63 should have easily been able to see the B-17...not saying its definitive, but certainly looks like the P-63 would have had that B-17 filling its windscreen.

I'm not sure this will post/play, as it is Fecesbook:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1550294465423497
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Pure speculation of course, but I'm wondering if the P-63 was just trying to turn inside of the B-17 and had an accelerated stall. It looks as if just prior to impact it was at rapidly increasing high angle of bank - maybe with no real option to exit the turn. Also, any attempt to pull up would just likely precipitate an accelerated stall.

Clipboard01.jpg
 
Listening to the audio and the little girl you just get reinforced about how the effects will transcend the original accident.
 
That is why I avoid airshows
 
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