Authorities force pilot to make emergency landing

Having been on a sailboat that was buzzed twice at extremely low altitude (around 100' AGL, and we had 55' mast) by a pair of F-4's based out of Cherry Point in 1986, I'm not going to pre-judge that squadron's pilots as being exceptionally responsible during that era.
 
So why didn't he simply go into Florida, clear customs as he was supposed to? As was said, it never would have happened. I don't get it. I agree, they certainly should not have died but can't understand why the beech pilot didn't do as he was told. You people who fly instruments a lot in this type aircraft, please explain.
 
Tris_Tiffany said:
For some odd reason I just happened to google my dad's name yesterday (it was my 40th birthday and perhaps I'm feeling a bit nostalgic)

I was so so so amazed to come across this thread and see his name discussed some 30 years later after his death. He was a good man. Yes he had faults, as do we all. But he was my father. I lost him at the tender age of 8 years old. I still remember the day that my oldest sister came to my elementary school and pulled me out class to bring me home so my mother could tell me that his plane had been hit by a military jet in mid-air.
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Ron Levy said:
I lost count of the factual errors in this post after two paragraphs. While I sympathize with the poster's sense of loss, the facts of that accident aren't what the post states.
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The first two paragraphs are quoted above. Where exactly are the factual errors that bother you so much?
 
I've had A10s out of Martin state go under me twice when I've been around 2000 feet AGL, over the Chesapeake bay. They were very low so no chance of a collision but it gets your undivided attention. This is over a 10 year period. ( or at least the only two times I saw them) nice day both times, sunny bright.
 
Clark1961 said:
The first two paragraphs are quoted above. Where exactly are the factual errors that bother you so much?
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He said he lost count of the factual errors. He might have also lost count of the paragraph numbers. Until an official report from the NTSB (Number Tallying Safety Board) is released on the actual counts involved, I think it unfair to engage in speculation as to what really happened in these last few posts.
 
Jim Logajan said:
He said he lost count of the factual errors. He might have also lost count of the paragraph numbers. Until an official report from the NTSB (Number Tallying Safety Board) is released on the actual counts involved, I think it unfair to engage in speculation as to what really happened in these last few posts.
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now this approaches humor...
 
ClimbnSink said:
If you fly through the legal airspace over the space facility do you deserve to die?
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Well, of course not! I am saying that you might attract attention that will either get you met on the ground or told in flight to land.

Jeff Oslick said:
Having been on a sailboat that was buzzed twice at extremely low altitude (around 100' AGL, and we had 55' mast) by a pair of F-4's based out of Cherry Point in 1986, I'm not going to pre-judge that squadron's pilots as being exceptionally responsible during that era.
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My dad and I got the attention of the Dutch Navy several days in a row while in St. Maarten. We were operating a Ham Radio station for some DXing. The Dutch Navy helicopter said "hello" multiple times a day. The locals were starting to think we were up to something. :rolleyes2: :lol:
 
timwinters said:
Assuming "the facts" as presented by "the government" are really "facts."
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I was fully briefed on the details of that accident when it happened, including reviewing direct evidence, and the information in Tris Tiffany's post isn't even close to what actually happened.
 
stratobee said:
Then re-read the report. Fact is that they continue attempting a visual identification in low visibility when the plane has been positively identified by radar, radio and transponder and all parameters are known. If that's not a training mission by that point, then what is it?
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You clearly didn't read the actual mishap report. I did. Your facts are wrong, and from the fighter crews' perspective, it was always a hot intercept mission.
 
Ron Levy said:
I was fully briefed on the details of that accident when it happened, including reviewing direct evidence, and the information in Tris Tiffany's post isn't even close to what actually happened.
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She was 8, this happened 30 years ago. I doubt she received the same briefing you did.
 
Jim Logajan said:
He said he lost count of the factual errors. He might have also lost count of the paragraph numbers. Until an official report from the NTSB (Number Tallying Safety Board) is released on the actual counts involved, I think it unfair to engage in speculation as to what really happened in these last few posts.
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This accident happened 30 years ago, and I read both the NTSB and USAF reports at that time.
 
Ron Levy said:
No doubt about that. It's too bad she doesn't know what actually happened.
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There is probably a lot that all of us don't know about our older relatives. Maybe if she is curious she will ask you or maybe she would rather leave the past alone.
 
Ron Levy said:
I lost count of the factual errors in this post after two paragraphs. While I sympathize with the poster's sense of loss, the facts of that accident aren't what the post states.
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A simple "I'm sorry for your loss" would have sufficed, Ron.
 
Ron Levy said:
No doubt about that. It's too bad she doesn't know what actually happened.
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Which in turn stimulates the question of why do you think you know what happened? You weren't there. You read some reports. We've all read reports. We know that fact and fiction are frequently misplaced...
 
Thank you all for your sentiments and condolences. And thank you for the correction about the fighter jet name - it was and F4, not an A4.

As to the person who said he could not follow my note after the second paragraph - I suggest you go back to the second grade so you can learn how to read. Everyone else on this forum seemed to follow my post just fine.

My only reason for posting here is because I was so shocked to find my father's name being mentioned after 30+ years after his death. It was a tragedy. And I was a young girl who adored her father. No one deserves to lose her father at such a young age. I remember sitting on his lap while he flew the plane and he told me one day he would teach me how to fly when I was old enough. Unfortunately, that day never came.

I certainly do not want this to happen to any one else. If you have children, you should cherish every moment with them.
 
fgcason said:
Don't forget that the average person off the street, especially reporters, KNOW for a fact that all airplanes must be in constant communication with ATC even if someone is hand pushing an airplane between hangars on a private dirt strip on the backside of the moon.
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Not just ATC....THE TOWER! Every moviegoer and TV watcher knows that there is only one communications channel, and it is THE TOWER. Never mind that the fictional plane is at 10,000 feet, 50 miles from any tower, THE TOWER is in control :yes: (smiley shouldn't be necessary, but...)

Bob Gardner
 
Ron Levy said:
I was fully briefed on the details of that accident when it happened, including reviewing direct evidence, and the information in Tris Tiffany's post isn't even close to what actually happened.
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I was 8 when my father passed but it took 10 years to get to the supreme court. So I was 18 when it ended. I watched my mother fight the government through and through.... A lone woman with 3 daughters, - 2 in college at the time - and me, in high school. She put us all through college on her own. She fought the government who actually COUNTER-SUED us for the damage to their plane after it crashed into my dad's plane.

There is nothing left to be unsaid except what the government wants to cover up. So if you have anything additional to say, I'll give you my number and you can air your grievances.

Good luck with that
 
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This was an accident with no definitive blame. Three mistakes were made by three different people. Take away one of them and the accident never would have happened. From the NTSB report:

The probable causes of this accident were (a) the unauthorized penetration of
identification and control of unknown aircreft, (c! deviation by the Baron pilot from a
Route Traffic Control Centers (ARTCC) and NORAD SAGE facilities regarding
requirement to activate a previously filed VFR flight plan and thus dr-lare ADIZ
penetration, (dl fsilure of the Baron pilot to file and activate an instr:m?n: flight plan
before operating in instrument meteorological conditions (IMC), !e) inadequate tracking
sensitivity for both ground rrnd airborne radar for the intended mission, (f) use of an
excessive closure rate between unidentified aircraft and F4-C while depending on visual
iden:Ification in IXC, &xi (g) continuation of the 24-C intercept mission after
iden.ification of the Baron hed been established
 
Ron Levy said:
I would point out that the Baron pilot who had the mid-air with the F-4 was in fact operating in violation of the regulations. I'm not saying the pilot deserved to die for that, but if the pilot had complied with the rules, the accident would not have happened. You can read the full report here: http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR84-07.pdf
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It is inexcusable for a military aircrew to lose situational awareness and ram another aircraft. Hopefully those guys got desk jobs after that.
 
Anyone have a link to the supreme court decision?
 
Tris, very sorry for the loss of your Dad when you were so young. That must have been so hard for everyone. My wife lost her Mom when she was in her 30's and she still feels the pain...to be just a child of 8 is :sad:
 
How did this many people get in that airplane and why didn't he go thru customs in Florida as he was told?
 
Jimmy cooper said:
How did this many people get in that airplane and why didn't he go thru customs in Florida as he was told?
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If I told you I put 25 people in my Comanche, and it was never verified, would you believe it? Why believe the report where nothing was verified?
 
EdFred said:
If I told you I put 25 people in my Comanche, and it was never verified, would you believe it? Why believe the report where nothing was verified?
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But it was easily verified that he was directed to go thru customs at fort pierce Florida which he did not do. The pilot called the number ofsouls on board did he not? He then flew thru a restricted zone without a Clearance which started the whole intercept sequence. It was mentioned before, had he cleared customs at fort pierce , they would all be alive. Makes sense to me. Poking a stick in the eye of the air defense command, causing them do an intercept makes no sense to me.
 
Ron Levy said:
You clearly didn't read the actual mishap report. I did. Your facts are wrong, and from the fighter crews' perspective, it was always a hot intercept mission.
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I don't understand why that matters one way or another in determining who caused the accident. Which pilot didn't properly handle his aircraft in the moments leading up to the collision? Which one was more aware of the heightened need to see and avoid?

Three irreconcilable proposed probable causes really underlines the amount of politics that was coloring the thinking of the authors. If the N number on the Baron had been smaller than allowed by regulation I suspect some or all would have sorely wanted to add that as probable cause. They couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that a regulatory violation taking place doesn't mean it is causal to any subsequent accident.
 
Ron Levy said:
No doubt about that. It's too bad she doesn't know what actually happened.
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Yep I was 8 then.... And now I'm 40. I'm a grown woman and I'd kindly ask you to watch your language. The fact still remains that an F4 fighter jet downed my father's plane for absolutely no reason.

If you have a problem with military aircraft scrambling fighter jets and treating civilian aircraft as a "hostile aircraft" as a training mission then I suggest you should reevaluate your ethical standards.

Just sayin...
 
I used to be an F-4C backseater. That airplane should not be used for IMC visual ID intercepts of anything in peacetime.
 
Cool.. brief us!

we'd all like to know.

Every Pilot in Amerca deserves to know.
 
Nowadays, the military uses Civil Air Patrol volunteers as targets for interception training. (There's never any shortage of volunteers.)
 
Re: Cool.. brief us!

Tris_Tiffany said:
we'd all like to know.

Every Pilot in Amerca deserves to know.
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I still find it downright disgusting the military counter sued your family for the expense of washing the blood and hair off the F-4's wing..

That is the ultimate in arrogence...:mad2::mad2::mad2:....:(
 
Once again, my sincerest gratittude to those who sent their condelences. For those of you who went back and read the FAA report, I suggest you seriously question the validity of the report. Unless you trust the goverment implicitly.

And for those of you who happen to question his character due to an incident in Haiti - he was completely cleared of any wrong doing. So don't even go there...
 
I am really sorry Tris, for the loss of your father.

And I am ashamed of the extremely unkind conduct of one of the posters here.
 
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