ATC Directed Runway Incursion. IAD Disaster Averted.

You think they'd have gotten this straight by now. It used to be before they created the west runway (now 1L/19R), that it was IMPOSSIBLE to "cross" a runway at IAD. Pretty much ruined what was a decent airport design. Right up there with the idiotic FAA directives to rename the taxiways at Dulles and other airports. While it is on paper now "consistant", it's operationally way worse than how the airports were before.
 
Airport layout wasn’t the problem Ron. The controller forgot he cleared UAL 326 for takeoff, and then proceeded to taxi aircraft across 19C, causing UAL 326 to abort. Heads up for 326!
 
Just goes to show, never blindly follow ATC directions. Trust, but verify. They are human too and can make mistakes. Controllers have caused runway incursions, have vectored airplanes into cumulogranite, and and have assisted aircraft with running out of fuel. You are the pilot in command, and are ultimately responsible.

And this is not a bash of controllers, we are all human and mistakes happen to the best of us.
 
Yikes. Good lesson on always keeping an eye out and listening to what the others are being told.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Just goes to show, never blindly follow ATC directions. Trust, but verify. They are human too and can make mistakes. Controllers have caused runway incursions, have vectored airplanes into cumulogranite, and and have assisted aircraft with running out of fuel. You are the pilot in command, and are ultimately responsible.

And this is not a bash of controllers, we are all human and mistakes happen to the best of us.
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I was a controller and have seen screw ups. It happens. Of course never did. :)
 
Holy phook! That's scary.
I forget what airport, but a few years ago I was cleared for takeoff, and as I taxied onto the runway I saw a plane on the runway ahead of me, way down there, maybe 1500 or 2000 feet down. I stopped in position and ask the tower what that plane on the runway was doing. He snapped back with something like "I had proper separation... cleared for takeoff". I simply said, "I'm not rolling until that plane is clear". I think it was landing traffic that hadn't exited the runway yet. The controller was extremely defensive. Once that plane was clear, I began my roll and never said any more about it, but I don't think he should have cleared me with that plane on the ground in front of me.

I try to listen and develop a big-picture view of what is going on, but you just can't always do that. You might be doing a run-up, or other tasks while waiting your turn. You really do rely on the controllers to get this stuff right. Listening to that video, you can hear the controller instructing multiple planes to cross the runway shortly after he had cleared the other plane for takeoff. None of those pilots questioned those instructions - I'm not saying they should have - I'm pointing out that those pilots are RELYING on the CONTROLLERS in those situations. An old phrase comes to mind, "Doveryai, no proveryai".
 
pburger said:
Holy phook! That's scary.
I forget what airport, but a few years ago I was cleared for takeoff, and as I taxied onto the runway I saw a plane on the runway ahead of me, way down there, maybe 1500 or 2000 feet down. I stopped in position and ask the tower what that plane on the runway was doing. He snapped back with something like "I had proper separation... cleared for takeoff". I simply said, "I'm not rolling until that plane is clear". I think it was landing traffic that hadn't exited the runway yet. The controller was extremely defensive. Once that plane was clear, I began my roll and never said any more about it, but I don't think he should have cleared me with that plane on the ground in front of me.

I try to listen and develop a big-picture view of what is going on, but you just can't always do that. You might be doing a run-up, or other tasks while waiting your turn. You really do rely on the controllers to get this stuff right. Listening to that video, you can hear the controller instructing multiple planes to cross the runway shortly after he had cleared the other plane for takeoff. None of those pilots questioned those instructions - I'm not saying they should have - I'm pointing out that those pilots are RELYING on the CONTROLLERS in those situations. An old phrase comes to mind, "Doveryai, no proveryai".
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That’s called anticipating separation. It’s in the controller handbook, or used to be. IOW by the time you roll the other aircraft should be clear of the runway. Still correct @Timbeck2?

Of course you have the right to wait too. ATC can’t make you take off after all. :)
 
Timbeck2 said:
I'd be real surprised if that controller didn't lose his ratings on that one.
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I bet he doesn’t, unless you think he did it on purpose. Most likely he’ll be on probation and require a supervisor at all times to monitor him for some period of time.
 
mscard88 said:
That’s called anticipating separation. It’s in the controller handbook, or used to be. IOW by the time you roll the other aircraft should be clear of the runway. Still correct @Timbeck2?

Of course you have the right to wait too. ATC can’t make you take off after all. :)
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Not if the controller said, "I had the required separation." I don't know where he got his training but no controller I know or have ever met would clear someone for takeoff with someone still on the runway. Now turning to exit the runway is a different story.
 
teejayevans said:
I bet he doesn’t, unless you think he did it on purpose. Most likely he’ll be on probation and require a supervisor at all times to monitor him for some period of time.
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A supervisor monitors everyone on a daily basis, that's what a supervisor is for. I bet the supervisor lost his ratings as well.
 
mscard88 said:
That’s called anticipating separation. It’s in the controller handbook, or used to be. IOW by the time you roll the other aircraft should be clear of the runway. Still correct @Timbeck2?

Of course you have the right to wait too. ATC can’t make you take off after all. :)
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You know, I always wait for the entire runway to be clear before I start my roll. I'm usually off and climbing like mad in a few hundred feet. But it would be just my luck that the ONE DAY someone broke down, got a flat, ground looped, killed the engine or just had a brain fart and stopped or started to back taxi on the runway... THAT would be the day I had to abort the takeoff and needed that next couple thousand feet, including the part with an airplane sitting on it. The extra 15 seconds waiting for that Bonanza to waddle out of the way isn't really a big deal.

And I fly a little bitty bug-smasher with good brakes. No way in hell I'd do any different with something resembling a "real" airplane.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Not if the controller said, "I had the required separation." I don't know where he got his training but no controller I know or have ever met would clear someone for takeoff with someone still on the runway. Now turning to exit the runway is a different story.
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That’s what I meant, turning off and then clearing the aircraft. I might have it mixed up with clearing someone for takeoff as the previous aircraft begins their takeoff roll though too. Been a few years. :)
 
In that case 6,000' and airborne. I think what you're referring to is landing. 3000' for small/small, 4500' for large/small, etc.
 
mscard88 said:
Airport layout wasn’t the problem Ron. The controller forgot he cleared UAL 326 for takeoff, and then proceeded to taxi aircraft across 19C, causing UAL 326 to abort. Heads up for 326!
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Prior to the construction of the west runway, it wouldn't have been possible to make this error. There was no "crossing" runways at IAD before. All the runways were outside of the taxiway system.
 
@Timbeck2 Is there a standard procedure for a controller to remember something like this? Listening to it, I'll bet it was the distraction of the call from the Waterski flight that lost him the pic. Pure speculation, but I'll bet he then jumped ahead mentally to what he had planned next, which was the taxi instructions. What mental or physical check did he miss in there? What are you guys taught to do?

He was remarkable calm on the radio for someone who probably knew he'd just lost his livelihood but dodged being infamous.
 
Controller isn’t gonna lose their job over one OE / OD:

(1) Decertification shall not be based solely on the number of or involvement in an OE, but rather on the employees’ overall performance history.

ATSAP it! ;)
 
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I didn't get the feel that anyone's job was at risk.
Heck even if planes crash, I bet there are a lot of protections (union?) built in to re-train them vs dump them.
I think they have a lot invested in each controller and unless it is painfully obvious they are not working out (repeated errors or bad attitude about them), they are going to try to salvage them.
Imagine if each pilot who made an error was permanently revoked.
 
I didn't say "job," I said ratings. He could have lost his local (tower) rating which means that he can't work without retraining on the specific function of that position in which he was deficient. He also can't work without someone else plugged in behind him (a monitor, not a supervisor) until he has been deemed knowledgeable enough to work alone again. But then again, I don't work for the FAA or at that particular tower, so I don't know what will happen to him. I know what would have happened had it happened where I work.
 
arnoha said:
@Timbeck2 Is there a standard procedure for a controller to remember something like this? Listening to it, I'll bet it was the distraction of the call from the Waterski flight that lost him the pic. Pure speculation, but I'll bet he then jumped ahead mentally to what he had planned next, which was the taxi instructions. What mental or physical check did he miss in there? What are you guys taught to do?

He was remarkable calm on the radio for someone who probably knew he'd just lost his livelihood but dodged being infamous.
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Again, I don't know how they do things at Dulles but procedure for my particular airport is that anytime we have someone cross the runway be it a vehicle or another aircraft, we electronically block the wind sensor with a red screen so that the wind isn't visible. This means that when we clear someone for take off, the wind can't be seen therefore jogging the memory that someone is on the runway. In this case, it was backwards - the guy cleared someone for takeoff and then put someone across the runway.
 
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