Stewartb
Final Approach
I've read that cargo areas use a "flooding" halon agent. Passenger areas use a different halon but it's still not fun to breathe. When I got a lung-full I had instant involuntary coughing.
ASEL, no fire extinguisher on board: go or no go?
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You got me on the way halon works but I call BS on the ability to breathe in the area where you shoot it. I'll buy the extinguisher if you'll stand in the booth to make a video.
It's for real, that's why it's popular on ship board systems vs CO2. You really can stand there and breath in an environment that will extinguish fires, it's neat stuff. CO2 will sure as **** kill you, but a small can in a cockpit should be ok. What I don't want in a cockpit is Dry Chem. Talk about being debilitated and coughing, choking, fits in tight quarters, plus it burns the hell out of your eyes.
But you didn't go down, and you could see.
Clark1961
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You got me on the way halon works but I call BS on the ability to breathe in the area where you shoot it. I'll buy the extinguisher if you'll stand in the booth to make a video.
Webpage on the Halon and it's use. It specifically says that concentrations sufficient to suppress a fire leave enough breathable air for evacuation.
http://www.h3rcleanagents.com/support_faq_2.htm
...but don't hang out in the basement after dumping the bottle...
At my last job (aviation parts sales place) they told me that these bottles over here are filled with halon and if one goes off or leaks to leave the area immediately because it will "suck the air out of your lungs".
Might be some common misperceptions. I couldn't find anything on google but I seem to remember something about my dad saying that they had halon bottles on the cargo deck of the C-17/C-5/An-124/etc that would totally flood the area and that they had to get to the cockpit before they went off.
Might be an OWT though. Who knows
If you get a high enough concentration you will see King Ding Dong and he will say, "Bakaba"... but it won't kill you at concentrations even the 'flood' systems are designed at.
Let'sgoflying!
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If you send a screamer like Skydog did, followed by a "
" emoticon it is quite possibly going to be taken as serious vs that followed by one associated with sarcasm.
And the whole challenging someone's intellect over that is, quite ironically, childish.
I was not, either.
" emoticon it is quite possibly going to be taken as serious vs that followed by one associated with sarcasm. And the whole challenging someone's intellect over that is, quite ironically, childish.
I was not, either.
Everskyward said:
Henning said:
Stewartb
Final Approach
If I have a fire.... and a fire extinguisher.... if a little's good? More's better. I'm shooting it till it's empty. I don't think I'll complain the the fire's been put out too well!
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Jay Honeck
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I always kept a halon fire extinguisher in my planes. Unfortunately, the only safe, secure, reachable place I found to mount it (in my Cherokees) was under the pilot's seat.
IMHO, if a fire were to break out it would likely start under/behind the panel. This would mean bending forward, in flight, toward the fire to release the (unseen) latch on the (invisible) fire extinguisher.
This always bothered me, and made me question whether I would be able to effectively deploy the extinguisher. Thankfully, I never needed to find out.
In my current plane (an RV-8), there is no space in the front cockpit for an extinguisher. There was a place to mount one in the back hole (on the back of the front seat), but that's where I mounted the O2 system. So, we live without a fire extinguisher.
Bottom line: Lack of a fire extinguisher isn't a no-go item, IMHO.
IMHO, if a fire were to break out it would likely start under/behind the panel. This would mean bending forward, in flight, toward the fire to release the (unseen) latch on the (invisible) fire extinguisher.
This always bothered me, and made me question whether I would be able to effectively deploy the extinguisher. Thankfully, I never needed to find out.
In my current plane (an RV-8), there is no space in the front cockpit for an extinguisher. There was a place to mount one in the back hole (on the back of the front seat), but that's where I mounted the O2 system. So, we live without a fire extinguisher.
Bottom line: Lack of a fire extinguisher isn't a no-go item, IMHO.
WhiskeyPapa
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WhiskeyPapa
Who knew that fire extinguishers could lead to such a heateddiscussion? I’ve been around long enough on other forums to expect being flamed. This kind of flaming I can handle.
The examples noted above and an article I recently read in Flying Magazine illustrate circumstances where the use of a fire extinguisher in the cabin did or would have mitigated the situation. I’ll stand by my no-go decision and a fire extinguisher will always be on my personal minimum equipment list. We train to handle other remote events, such as engine outs, so being prepared for yet another remote event - especially when the opportunity cost of doing so is minimal - is an obvious conclusion for me. In my limited flying experience, I was frankly taken aback at encountering a rental aircraft that didn’t have a fire extinguisher on board, especially an aircraft that is part of a fleet also used for flight instruction. Every aircraft I’ve flown in to date had one. This is where my naiveté shows through based on some responses in this thread. But now I know that I should expect this omission more often in the rental fleets, and thereby be prepared by bringing my own unit as part of my flight bag. For that this thread has been most informative.
Flying is about risk management. It's great you are determined to cut the risks. But don't get fixated. In a rental (at least the ones I've flown), there are probably a dozen things that are likely get my attention before worrying about the presence or absence of a fire extinguisher. But it's a good question!
If the only thing wrong with the flying rattletrap is the absence of a fire extinguisher, go fly! (Of course, i reserve the right to change my opinion if I ever have an inflight fire.)
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Clark1961
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My experience is that I stop discharging the fire extinguisher when I see the fire is out. Done it a couple times.
Anyway, just don't lay on the floorboards and you won't have a problem with Halon in the aircraft.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Ya think? I was standing outside when I got exposed. I missed my target and the halon stream hit the cowl. And fighting a fire in an enclosed compartment makes for lots of smoke so when did you know your airplane fire was out and it was okay to stop spraying it? A small halon bottle doesn't last very long so stopping mid-bottle isn't usually an option. In my experience, anyway.
The majority of serious fires start as small fires. Extinguishers are the tool we use to keep small fires from becoming big fires. If a fuel line let's go and fills the cabin with fuel and you decide to have a snake, yeah, you're ****ed regardless.
Depends if the fire went out, be better than burning without the buzz.
Clark1961
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Didn't say either fire was in an aircraft.
You got me on the way halon works but I call BS on the ability to breathe in the area where you shoot it. I'll buy the extinguisher if you'll stand in the booth to make a video.
It's not BS. While any non-oxygen agent COULD displace oxygen, a properly sized Halon extinguisher won't really. The bigger issue than the halon was whatever it was that was burning. Most stuff that could burn (plastic) liberates noxious HCN and acid stuff that will hurt more than the halon.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Is that statement from personal experience? My exposure wasn't as simple as the brochures lead you to believe. I'm interested to hear another pirep from actual exposure in a real event.
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I go through a week or two of firefighting drills and training every 5 years, including confined space. It gets reasonably in depth you end up experiencing it all. Yes, if you get a solid stream, you will certainly notice, but unless you have a big bottle in a very small space, it's not going to kill you. The advantage this has on ship board systems is you don't have to wait to evacuate the space to seal it and discharge, and this really pays off for the guys trapped by the fire without escape as there's no hesitation hoping for them to find a way. With Halon systems you save them by putting out the fire around them without killing them like with CO2.
I have discharged 17 pound halon extinguishers in relative closed spaces in training (back in the Reagan era we were given funds in the Army to do that). That's way more than your little hand extinguisher. Unpressurized cockpits are so leaky that you're unlikely to have a long period of lack of breathable air even in the unlikely event you get some pocket of high Halon concentration.
ifly4fun
Line Up and Wait
I thought FM200 replaced halon.. It's what we use in all of our data centers.
Stewartb
Final Approach
My experience was outside, upwind of the cowl. I do not look forward to shooting a similar extinguisher in an enclosed space to a distance equivalent of my lap. Like I said initially, hold your breath.
My replacement of that halon extinguisher uses Halotron.
My replacement of that halon extinguisher uses Halotron.
Fearless Tower
Touchdown! Greaser!
At my last job (aviation parts sales place) they told me that these bottles over here are filled with halon and if one goes off or leaks to leave the area immediately because it will "suck the air out of your lungs".
Might be some common misperceptions. I couldn't find anything on google but I seem to remember something about my dad saying that they had halon bottles on the cargo deck of the C-17/C-5/An-124/etc that would totally flood the area and that they had to get to the cockpit before they went off.
Might be an OWT though. Who knows
Total BS.
Halon works by interrupting the chemical chain reaction of a fire. It does not displace O2, period.
I can flood the engine room on a ship with halon with people in it and it won't kill them. If the space is on fire, they might have some adverse effects from the byproducts, but they will will at least be alive.
Halon is still the best stuff for confined spaces. They haven't made any new Halon in a long time, they've been recovering it from things like data centers.
Halon was never the best answer for those anyhow. IBM did a study that pretty much showed that conventual water sprinklers actually had the best response for large centers.