Are buyers always like this?

[flyingcheesehead]

Sheesh. Airplane buyers seem to be getting pretty brazen in this market - Or maybe they've always been this way.

I can't believe when I get inquiries like this: "I'm going to be buying an airplane soon. What is your bottom price?" Or, they'll simply throw out a low-ball offer without even asking to look at the logbooks. Or they'll say something like "Well, this plane is going to need $X in upgrades within the next 10 years, so you should discount it by $X so I'll buy it."

It seems that the buyers who are just looking to see who'll bite on a low-ball offer are going to be the ones who get bitten by high maintenance prices from someone who knows their plane has issues and is thus willing to take the low-ball price.

WRT the avionics, the airplane is already priced such that the buyer has plenty of extra money to make their own upgrades as they see fit. For the time being, it's a really nice IFR GPS equipped airplane that works wonderfully as it is. Models with newer avionics are priced in the neighborhood of $60K-$70K higher, which is enough to buy some really nice toys for the stack - In fact, that's likely enough to buy this plane, and put the gadgets in to have full glass and ADS-B capability.

I say again... Sheesh! Have buyers always been this way, or is this market putting enough people in a bind that these low-ballers are finding airplanes?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

It's a Buyers Market. The bottom feeders are out in full force.

 

[Gubbins]

It happens with everything. Have you ever sold a house? You always get at least one buyer who offers you 30% under what you're asking with a straight face. Then you get to decline their kind offer with an equally straight face.

 

[ateamer]

The worst that can happen to the buyer is that the seller says no. Sometimes they'll get lucky and have an inexperienced or desperate seller who will say yes and then they get a great deal. No need to take it personally - it's just business.

 

[jesse]

I'm sure I miss out on lots of opportunities but I've always preferred to find something where the buyer is asking a fair price and I can simply make an offer at their full asking price. Saves everyone a bunch of headache.

That of course means I miss out on things where people intentionally overpriced things because they like to haggle but I don't care.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The worst that can happen to the buyer is that the seller says no. Sometimes they'll get lucky and have an inexperienced or desperate seller who will say yes and then they get a great deal. No need to take it personally - it's just business.

I get that... It just seems somewhat counterproductive to buy the lowest-priced airplane, when they'll likely have to put a ton of money into it to get it to be as nice as one that's been taken care of but is selling for a more realistic price. Heck, the low-priced ones may not even be truly airworthy... See the "$14,000 annual" thread.

 

[Velocity173]

Problem is a lot of us bought when the market was a sellers market. Now if we want to sell we have to take a substantial loss. My plane is selling for about 3/4 of what I paid for it in 2007. I have about 25 grand invested in just the engine and exhaust alone. I'm not gonna sell it for half of what I have in it. I'd rather donate it to an aviation charity than give some guy a an awesome deal just because he's taking advantage of the economy. When it comes down to it, it's about how bad you need the money and are you using the aircraft? I don't need the money and I'll keep flying as long as I can keep a medical.

 

[Anthony]

You can always counter. I am not advocating low balling to an insulting level, but sometimes its just a bargaining position. When I get a super lowball offer I counter with the asking price. Sometimes they get it, sometimes they don't.

 

[acluffpoa]

I would say that those low ballers are not really serious buyers at all.

 

[denverpilot]

I say again... Sheesh! Have buyers always been this way, or is this market putting enough people in a bind that these low-ballers are finding airplanes?

Yes.

The reality is, if you're sitting on cash, you can call up and make whatever silly offer you like to anyone.

If the person on the other end is somehow "insulted", it's really not your problem. If they want to sell it at the price offered, they'll get "un-insulted" real quick.

I don't operate that way, but there are those who do. It's nothing to be bothered about.

Here's a hypothetical... let's say someone calls up and says, "I have the cash to pay your asking price right now. I'm instead offering $1. What's your counter-offer?" Let's also say you're clairvoyant, and know he or she isn't lying.

What would you say? How bad do you want to sell it?

 

[Fearless Tower]

I would say that those low ballers are not really serious buyers at all.

I would agree with that. Especially the ones making those kinds of offers without even looking at the plane, logs or asking any questions.

Just chumps looking for a deal.

 

[wabower]

The answer is simple. "I'll be happy to submit any offer you'd like to make. In order to be seriously considered, you might want to include the source for your statements regarding value."

 

[BillyBH]

I think Velocity hit it on the head. Sellers that bought high need to adjust their frame of reference. It doesn't matter what you paid THEN. The buyer is looking at what it is worth NOW. The buyer is not a scumbag because the market has tanked.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I would say that those low ballers are not really serious buyers at all.

Bingo. Not a one of them has asked to see the logs or otherwise made any indication that they're serious.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Sellers that bought high need to adjust their frame of reference. It doesn't matter what you paid THEN. The buyer is looking at what it is worth NOW. The buyer is not a scumbag because the market has tanked.

Oh, this plane isn't selling for anywhere near what's in it. In fact, not much more than 50% of the original (used) purchase price. It really is a fair price, no pride involved, and I can say that because it's not my plane, nor my money that will be lost after the sale. I'm just surprised that people think I'd say yes to their low-balls when they're obviously not very serious buyers.

 

[wabower]

You're not necessarily dealing with the brightest and best when you're trying to sell (or buy) an airplane.

I would agree with that. Especially the ones making those kinds of offers without even looking at the plane, logs or asking any questions.

Just chumps looking for a deal.

 

[docmirror]

Those people aren't buyers. I don't bother with them anymore. If they get the price they quote, and have no interest in the logs, they are just going to advertise it for sale at your price and flip it. It's a waste of time. I get them regularly, and it's annoying.

 

[N2124v]

Low ball offers are all part of business. If you get offended by low ball offers in a business transaction, then maybe you should consider removing yourself from the equation and use a broker.

 

[Anthony]

Low ball offers are all part of business. If you get offended by low ball offers in a business transaction, then maybe you should consider removing yourself from the equation and use a broker.

Well that's what I was trying to say in a bit softer manner.

Its a busines transaction, take the emotion out of it. Have a strike price which you will accept and stick to it. If you find the market won't bear your strike price, adjust as necessary, or take the plane off the market.

 

[wabower]

How does taking it off the market help the seller? If he didn't want to sell it, why did he list it to start with?

Well that's what I was trying to say in a bit softer manner.

Its a busines transaction, take the emotion out of it. Have a strike price which you will accept and stick to it. If you find the market won't bear your strike price, adjust as necessary, or take the plane off the market.

 

[Ted]

You'll go through 10 bad buyers (at best) before you find a good one.

 

[comanchepilot]

I can't believe when I get inquiries like this: "I'm going to be buying an airplane soon. What is your bottom price?"

When you are going to buy an airplane call me back

Or, they'll simply throw out a low-ball offer without even asking to look at the logbooks.

Thank you for your call but I only deal with serious buyers.

Or they'll say something like "Well, this plane is going to need $X in upgrades within the next 10 years, so you should discount it by $X so I'll buy it."

Ok, thanks for the call. I think it is priced properly for its current condition and equipment.

I've never told people any of that - if I'm interested I want to seem like a reasonable person - not a jerk you don't want to do business with since if we go through with this deal my inspection is an annual to make sure the AD's are done and pencil whipped properly and there are no real surprises. The only time the airplane I bought got a 'pre-purchase' inspection I had a $5000 annual on a $42k airplane. The other 4 times [and I've only owned 2 other airplanes] - the annual solved the 'should I buy this airplane' question.

You are always going to find stuff in any non-new airplane - and you'll need to both be reasonable to make it happen - low ballers don't seem to understand that if they get a low ball airplane then they get a low ball airplane and the risks are now theirs - no one is going to offer to spend a dime to fix anything. Its as-is where-is.

 

[AggieMike88]

I think I missed what was being offered for sale....

 

[wabower]

I think I missed what was being offered for sale....

Rutabagas by the bushel.

 

[Kelvin]

I think I missed what was being offered for sale....

Sweet Mooney Kent's uncle owned...full of rutabagas

 

[Tom-D]

Today I sold a 25 horse Evinrude that I had advertised on Craig's list for $1500, I got the call last night we arranged I would bring the engine by his mechanic's shop so they could do a compression test and hear it run, so far I'm OK with that.

After the compression test showed the a very good test and it started on the first pull, I asked the buyer if we had a deal, he says yes if you'll take $650. I said no way, and started to put it back in the jeep, he offers $1000. I told him he knew the price on the ad, and had me come and go thru all his required tests, and now want to pay me less.

He then tells me he did not bring all the 1500 with him and wants me to follow him home, and tells me it's about 1000' feet from where we were. So I follow him home he then gets the rest of the 1500 and pays me.

They're are out there you simply price the product right and hold your ground.

 

[Anthony]

How does taking it off the market help the seller? If he didn't want to sell it, why did he list it to start with?

If a seller is not willing to accept offers the market is producing, he can leave it on the market at an asking price that is higher than the current market can bare, and leave it on and let it get stale, or take it off. Not saying he should take it off, but if your not willing to accept market price over a certain time period, then why have it for sale?

 

[zaitcev]

It just seems somewhat counterproductive to buy the lowest-priced airplane, when they'll likely have to put a ton of money into it to get it to be as nice as one that's been taken care of but is selling for a more realistic price. Heck, the low-priced ones may not even be truly airworthy... See the "$14,000 annual" thread.

You're making some unwarranted assumptions here. I was definitely zooming in on lowballing before my wife put a firm kibosh on it. I was looking at $12k C-150s and the like. My favourites were those with no avionics to speak about and 800 hour engines. The problem with the "one that's been taken care of" idea is that the guy with $14,500 annual bought exactly one like that! It was represented to him by local grapewine as a prime example of the kind, a well taken care of airplane. And of course he did not have the experience to take the tight control of his prebuy mechanic. You seem to be taking exactly the wrong lesson from the $14,500 thread, or at least the lesson opposing those of your buyers. Well, some of them anyway. I'm sure that many lowball just because they're *******s.

 

[Kelvin]

Yep...

Today I sold a 25 horse Evinrude that I had advertised on Craig's list for $1500, I got the call last night we arranged I would bring the engine by his mechanic's shop so they could do a compression test and hear it run, so far I'm OK with that.

After the compression test showed the a very good test and it started on the first pull, I asked the buyer if we had a deal, he says yes if you'll take $650. I said no way, and started to put it back in the jeep, he offers $1000. I told him he knew the price on the ad, and had me come and go thru all his required tests, and now want to pay me less.

He then tells me he did not bring all the 1500 with him and wants me to follow him home, and tells me it's about 1000' feet from where we were. So I follow him home he then gets the rest of the 1500 and pays me.

They're are out there you simply price the product right and hold your ground.

 

[Velocity173]

When it comes down to it there are a lot of dreamers out there that want to own. They're operating on a shoe string budget and really can't afford to own. While they might find a guy desperate to sell they'll get the real awakening when the operating costs come due. There's no talking anyone down when it comes to that stuff.

 

[AggieMike88]

This is teaching me that if I want to make a offer significantly lower than the asking, it's a courtesy to provide some justification. And this, at least, shows the seller I've dome some homework and now "lowballing with a wish/hope/prayer of acceptance".

 

[wabower]

Who determines market price?

If a seller is not willing to accept offers the market is producing, he can leave it on the market at an asking price that is higher than the current market can bare, and leave it on and let it get stale, or take it off. Not saying he should take it off, but if your not willing to accept market price over a certain time period, then why have it for sale?

 

[zaitcev]

If you are not willing to accept market price over a certain time period, then why have it for sale?

The main reason is that the market has a good spread, and because the market price is merely average.

The market works because when person A has X and person B wants X, the value of X to B is greater than value of having M amount of money, while the value of receiving M amount of money is greater than keeping X for A. The M may be quite a bit higher or lower than the Mavg for the market, for any given A and B.

For example, someone (say B1) might want to buy a 225 hr SkyArrow for $75k, because he wants the hand controls, whereas for me (B2), the price is insane, because I put no value on the hand controls -- until my feet get amputated LOL. If A persists advertising the SkyArrow until B1 is identified, is he defying the market? If I call him and say "look, there paraplectics are just not that rich or do not want to fly, you aren't getting your $75k for it EVER, so why don't you sell it to me for MARKET PRICE of $40k", does B2 lowball A? Or offering market price?

 

[comanchepilot]

Don't EVER get insulted . . . its just business.

If you don't like a buyers or sellers number - ask them how they arrived at it.

I've bought and sold alot of stuff outside retail and people are sometimes clueless - as in 'Uncle Ned told me to never spend more than $100 a rutabaga. . . . " crazy stuff

You ask folks to explain their offer to you and when they start sometimes it just sounds so stupid out loud that you both a chuckle and start to negotiate for real . . .

Thats why simply hanging up on people or carrying on about how insulted you are is counter productive - ask WHY. It is a simple question - the true low ballers will walk way 'insulted' and thats good - they walked away and stopped wasting your time . .

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Low ball offers are all part of business. If you get offended by low ball offers in a business transaction, then maybe you should consider removing yourself from the equation and use a broker.

Who says I'm offended?

Well that's what I was trying to say in a bit softer manner.

Its a busines transaction, take the emotion out of it. Have a strike price which you will accept and stick to it. If you find the market won't bear your strike price, adjust as necessary, or take the plane off the market.

No emotion here. More a commentary on society than anything... And I'm kind of wondering how many sellers would bother saying yes to someone who's clearly not going to buy.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

When you are going to buy an airplane call me back

Are you going to give me your "bottom price"?

I've never told people any of that - if I'm interested I want to seem like a reasonable person - not a jerk you don't want to do business with since if we go through with this deal my inspection is an annual to make sure the AD's are done and pencil whipped properly and there are no real surprises.

I'm being polite to folks, and then coming here to rant. Isn't that what we do here?

 

[Anthony]

Who determines market price?

Buyers willingness to pay.

 

[wabower]

Buyers willingness to pay.

Why not seller's willingness to sell?

 

[Anthony]

Why not seller's willingness to sell?

A seller wouldn't be a seller unless he was willing to sell. He has to accept what the buyer/market is willing to pay or retain ownership. Yes its that simple.

 

[poadeleted21]

...
Ok, thanks for the call. I think it is priced properly for its current condition and equipment.

Mmm hmm... I talked to some sellers like that, their plane's are still for sale after 1-2-3 years now.. Currently aware that the first plane I tried to buy about four years back hasn't left the ground or been started since, currently welded to the ramp with flats asking 3K less than I offered him for it.... buyer's still can't see the value in it so they'll just keep it.