Are buyers always like this?

[wabower]

I'm often contacted by potential buyers who have been referred by clients or other centers of influence. In some cases they have conducted their own search and have been unsuccessful. When I ask about their strategy to date, I'm no longer surprised when they say "well, I just contacted all the sellers and threw out low-ball offers to see if there were any takers."

Knowing that such strategy has a ~99% failure rate, my follow-up question is "so how do you propose to move forward since that strategy didn't get the desired results?" More often than not, their answer is some version of "beats hell out of me, if I knew what to do now I wouldn't be calling you."

Are you going to give me your "bottom price"?



I'm being polite to folks, and then coming here to rant. Isn't that what we do here?

 

[Ted]

A seller wouldn't be a seller unless he was willing to sell. He has to accept what the buyer/market is willing to pay or retain ownership. Yes its that simple.

There are also a lot of sellers who really don't want to sell their airplanes, they just like to say they're selling it.

Then you've got the people who are asking more for the airplane because it really is a better product. Go take a look at Jerry Temple's ads for Twin Cessnas and then compare them to the rest of Controller. Yes, Jerry's list prices are higher (although not as much as you'd imagine). A plane he represents is also top notch, and worth the extra cash.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I'll speak up for the "low ballers" out there.....


Some people may have a budget (loan approval or cash on hand) that limits them to $XXXX dollars.

So, in that case, there is nothing wrong with asking the seller if he will consider $XXXX for the plane. He isn't insulting, he is just trying to get the maximum amount of plane for the $$$ he has. That seems like reasonable behaviour on the buyer's part.

And, as a seller, a "low ball" offer may be better than no offer.

Also, now the way we communicate, via email, or text, it is pretty cheap and easy to do the price negotiating before we see the plane. I will often, if buying something on Craigslist send an email or a text saying "Will you consider $XXXX for the item?" Sometimes you get a "no, but, I will take $XXXX+500" or a "NO".

They don't take much time, don't take much investment, and we can all move on to the next item.

As for airplanes, I am kind of not surprised that there are some "low ball" offers being made. My local airport has a "For sale" bulletin board, and there are planes that look like they have been for sale for 4 years. If the seller doesn't care enough to update the fly, or re-price the airplane, then they shouldn't be offended.

Also, as I look thru Trade-a-Plane, Controller.com, ASO.com, and a few other sites, it looks like there are large ranges in pricing on similar craft. If it is a Buyer's market, and one seller is offering a C-182 with a mid-time engine for $50k, then I would not be shy about offering other sellers, with a similar aircraft the same $50k, even if they have an advertisement for $75k. And, hopefully the seller of the $75k is not offended, but, I am not trying to make a friend, just buy a plane.

 

[Geico266]

Never negotiate price until the buyer has seen the plane. Period.

 

[wabower]

That makes no sense. It's unusual for me to see any plane before making an offer. In a high percentage of cases we have a signed contract with money in escrow before we see it.

Never negotiate price until the buyer has seen the plane. Period.

 

[BillyBH]

Seems to me some sellers are real prima donnas. They act as if any offer under their asking price is a sign they are dealing with a tire kicker. Just because your technique is to ask for logbooks early on doesn't make that the only way to do business.

I'm not a mechanic. There is a time and place to review logbooks when the expert can look at them. IF the airplane meets my requirements otherwise, logbooks will be reviewed during the annual or prebuy. Just because I show no interest in them at first doesn't mean I'm not really interested in your airplane.

Don't judge a book by its cover. Don't assume that guy asking about the condition of the seats and headliner isn't a real buyer because he hasn't grilled you about the logbooks. Your priorities aren't necessarily the same as mine.

I'm out there. I'm really looking. I have money. But just because you paid dearly in a Seller's market doesn't mean I'm going to "make you whole" In a Buyers market.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Never negotiate price until the buyer has seen the plane. Period.

If I am looking at 4 planes in 4 different parts of the country, I want to negotiate and know what price is agreed upon BEFORE I travel half-way across the country to see the plane. Period.


Do you expect a buyer to travel to see the plane without negotiating?

 

[poadeleted21]

That makes no sense. It's unusual for me to see any plane before making an offer. In a high percentage of cases we have a signed contract with money in escrow before we see it.

He only knows experimentals, in which case, I agree with him... Who the heck knows what you could be gettin' yourself into with those things.

I have always talked money first with any seller. No sense in employing an A&P for a day with no agreement when I can't buy it.

 

[N2124v]

It's like buying a house. The sales price is negotiated, inspections are done, adjustments to the sales price, close the deal.

People make selling airplanes difficult because they let emotions get into the process. As a buyer of airplanes, houses, cars, etc. I don't care how much you have spent on maintenance, upgrades, etc. if they add no value to the transaction. As a seller, I realize that there are something's that have to be done that won't do squat to increase the sales price ( like a new a/c unit for a house).

 

[JoseCuervo]

Here are two planes for sale:

1974c-182 with zero time engine for $69,900

1974 Cessna 182P Skylane
Reg # N7571N Serial # 182-63260
Price: $ 69,000
TTAF: 2,540 Hrs.Location: SC, US
Fresh engine overhaul by America’s Aircraft Engines with full transferable warranty. Nice low time, well equipped, hangared airplane.

And the second plane.....
Same Year 1974 C-182 with 1100 hours on engine for $88,900

1974 Cessna 182P Skylane
Reg # N24VE Serial # 18262869
Price: $ 88,900USD
TTAF: 4,871 Hrs.Location: AL, US

20 year old paint job holding up except on leading edges. There are eraser size dents on tail. I bought this plane last November and have decided to sell. I bought it thinking it would be a good short-field plane. Earlier, I had built a rather short grass strip--1300 feet long. The 182 will work but it is just a little 'tighter' than I really want--especially on hot days.

I did have an incident back the end of April--with a slight nose landing--but this has been professionally repaired by RainAir (btw, they did an excellent job; the plane flys beautifully--just flew to Texas; I cannot detect any issue after their very professional work; there was no firewall damage). The plane is in excellent condition.

Is it out of line to offer the second guy the $69,900 that I know I can get the first plane for?

Is it out of line to offer the second guy $59,900 given the engine has 1100 hours, and the plane had an "incident" that was repaired?

Or, is the second guy not a "serious seller" at that price?

 

[docmirror]

Obviously we all do things different. If I low ball someone, it's gonna be on a tired product, that the seller hasn't touched in a few years. I bought a rough Porsche a few months back that was asking $2800 and I paid $1500 which is low ball. I was there, I had the money, but I didn't offer $1500 on the phone. If I'm a buyer, I go where the product is. If I'm just a BS artist, I make an offer and expect it to be rejected.

I'd like to hear from ONE person here who's accepted a low-ball offer in their life. Not me, I'd rather let it sit and rot to dust.

 

[poadeleted21]

Here are two planes for sale:

1974c-182 with zero time engine for $69,900




And the second plane.....
Same Year 1974 C-182 with 1100 hours on engine for $88,900




Is it out of line to offer the second guy the $69,900 that I know I can get the first plane for?

Is it out of line to offer the second guy $59,900 given the engine has 1100 hours, and the plane had an "incident" that was repaired?

Or, is the second guy not a "serious seller" at that price?

The 2nd one has more in the panel than the first one has in the engine. Given the scarcity of a 182s with a decent panel, I'd take the 2nd. Given the engine on the first is 0 time and it's for sale... there's more to the story. I just bought a plane with a fresh overhaul... there was more to the story. Online ads are a starting point with maybe 1% of the information you need and half of that is probably misleading. If I were in the market for a 182P with a decent panel, I'd call both sellers, knowing I was going to have to shell out 30K or more to get a decent panel in the first one.

 

[onwards]

Seriously.

Seriously?

I am looking to buy. I have the cash - and I'm not even looking for the $30-40K perfect 172, but rather a $70-80K perfect 6-seater. I have negotiated two deals successfully thus far, but both planes fell apart when things came to light during closing (I find that some sellers lie a lot - I'm not offended, just cautious). Such is life. I am very, very patient. I strongly believe that the market at present plays in my favor, and will continue to do so in the next 2-3 years at least. So I have plenty of time to wait, and in the meantime, my money is making more money. And as much as you won't like to hear it as a seller, I am waiting precisely for someone who REALLY needs to sell their plane, because life has made it so. They will appreciate it when I can close quickly with cash on hand for what is a fairly large purchase.

When I do buy, it will be the right plane at the right price from MY Perspective, and not anyone else's. I couldn't care less what the seller paid for their plane or how much money they put into it, or what they have emotionally invested in it. I care about what I perceive the value of the plane to be when I buy it, because the moment it changes hands, *I* become the next seller.

And right now, in this market, my perception is that planes are worth roughly 30% under what VREF tells me they should be worth. So that is MY bottom line as a cash buyer looking in a segment that's been hit particularly hard. So those are the offers you'll be getting from me. I am certainly dead serious, just disagree with your valuation. Feel free to counter. Insulted? whatever.

 

[SCCutler]

Here are two planes for sale:

1974c-182 with zero time engine for $69,900

And the second plane.....
Same Year 1974 C-182 with 1100 hours on engine for $88,900

Is it out of line to offer the second guy the $69,900 that I know I can get the first plane for?

Is it out of line to offer the second guy $59,900 given the engine has 1100 hours, and the plane had an "incident" that was repaired?

Or, is the second guy not a "serious seller" at that price?

Not saying it's the only difference but compare:

Collins AMR-350 Audio Panel with 3 LMB
Collins VHF-251 720 Channel Digital COM #1
Collins VIR-351 200 Channel Digital NAV #1
Collins IND-351 ILS/VOR/LOC NAV Indicator #1
Garmin GNC-300 XL IFR Certified GPS Moving Map / COM #2
Collins IND-350 VOR/LOC/GPS CDI #2
Narco ADF-140
Narco AT-165 Digital Transponder with Encoder
Cessna NavoMatic Autopilot with Heading Bug and NAV/GPS Coupler

...to...

Garmin GNS530,
Garmin SL-30 NAV/COM,
Garmin 330 Mode S with Traffic,
340P Audio/Intercom)
S-TECH 55X Auto-Pilot Coupled to the 530
Yoke-Mounted Garmin 296
New Sun Screen and Panel Covers with Integral Lighting by Aero Enhancements
Shadin Fuel Analyzer
Good Year WX-8 Storm Scope

You could not come remotely close to duplicating that avionics kit for twenty grand - you'd eat up most of twenty on the S-Tec 55X alone.

The avionics suite in the cheaper one is pretty much fit for boat-anchor duty.

---

Edit: You see what I did there with the text colors? Pretty clever, right?!?

 

[poadeleted21]

Obviously we all do things different. If I low ball someone, it's gonna be on a tired product, that the seller hasn't touched in a few years. I bought a rough Porsche a few months back that was asking $2800 and I paid $1500 which is low ball. I was there, I had the money, but I didn't offer $1500 on the phone. If I'm a buyer, I go where the product is. If I'm just a BS artist, I make an offer and expect it to be rejected.

I'd like to hear from ONE person here who's accepted a low-ball offer in their life. Not me, I'd rather let it sit and rot to dust.

I sold my Cherokee in 2 weeks and ****ed off 3 other people who didn't show up with the money fast enough. Lowball? I don't know, but I needed to move an airplane. Let it sit and rot if you want, go to any airport in America and there will be no shortage of people doing just that, the competition is stiff in that department. If it hasn't sold in 90 days, maybe the problem isn't the buyers. Planes priced right are moving, planes where the seller says "I'll get what I want out of it or it'll rot" are rotting.

 

[wabower]

If you're booking it, bet that the buyers will do much more market research than will sellers.

I sold my Cherokee in 2 weeks and ****ed off 3 other people who didn't show up with the money fast enough. Lowball? I don't know, but I needed to move an airplane. Let it sit and rot if you want, go to any airport in America and there will be no shortage of people doing just that, the competition is stiff in that department. If it hasn't sold in 90 days, maybe the problem isn't the buyers. Planes priced right are moving, planes where the seller says "I'll get what I want out of it or it'll rot" are rotting.

 

[onwards]

I'd like to hear from ONE person here who's accepted a low-ball offer in their life. Not me, I'd rather let it sit and rot to dust.

Me. I've accepted what some people would call low balls before - more than once. When I have something that has all the prospects of rapidly diminishing value, of which I have no more need, and which actually costs money to keep - I sell very, very quickly.

I just did it last year with my car when I decided I wanted a new one. My car was "worth" $14K according to KBB. I found the deal I wanted for the new lease, and had two options: take the time and effort to try (no guarantees, after all) and sell my car at the "correct" price, or get rid of it and move on. I chose the latter, and sold it for $10K to a colleague. He got a great deal, I got out from under the old car painlessly, without spending a penny nor minute more in upkeep than I needed to get me to the dealership to drive away the new one.

And guess what - we were both happy. Him, for he got a great deal. Me, because I ALSO got a great deal by not tying up the cash needlessly in something I no longer needed.

Rather simple in the end.

 

[poadeleted21]

Seriously.

Seriously?

I am looking to buy. I have the cash - and I'm not even looking for the $30-40K perfect 172, but rather a $70-80K perfect 6-seater. I have negotiated two deals successfully thus far, but both planes fell apart when things came to light during closing (I find that some sellers lie a lot - I'm not offended, just cautious). Such is life. I am very, very patient. I strongly believe that the market at present plays in my favor, and will continue to do so in the next 2-3 years at least. So I have plenty of time to wait, and in the meantime, my money is making more money. And as much as you won't like to hear it as a seller, I am waiting precisely for someone who REALLY needs to sell their plane, because life has made it so. They will appreciate it when I can close quickly with cash on hand for what is a fairly large purchase.

When I do buy, it will be the right plane at the right price from MY Perspective, and not anyone else's. I couldn't care less what the seller paid for their plane or how much money they put into it, or what they have emotionally invested in it. I care about what I perceive the value of the plane to be when I buy it, because the moment it changes hands, *I* become the next seller.

And right now, in this market, my perception is that planes are worth roughly 30% under what VREF tells me they should be worth. So that is MY bottom line as a cash buyer looking in a segment that's been hit particularly hard. So those are the offers you'll be getting from me. I am certainly dead serious, just disagree with your valuation. Feel free to counter. Insulted? whatever.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Not saying it's the only difference but compare:

Collins AMR-350 Audio Panel with 3 LMB
Collins VHF-251 720 Channel Digital COM #1
Collins VIR-351 200 Channel Digital NAV #1
Collins IND-351 ILS/VOR/LOC NAV Indicator #1
Garmin GNC-300 XL IFR Certified GPS Moving Map / COM #2
Collins IND-350 VOR/LOC/GPS CDI #2
Narco ADF-140
Narco AT-165 Digital Transponder with Encoder
Cessna NavoMatic Autopilot with Heading Bug and NAV/GPS Coupler

...to...

Garmin GNS530,
Garmin SL-30 NAV/COM,
Garmin 330 Mode S with Traffic,
340P Audio/Intercom)
S-TECH 55X Auto-Pilot Coupled to the 530
Yoke-Mounted Garmin 296
New Sun Screen and Panel Covers with Integral Lighting by Aero Enhancements
Shadin Fuel Analyzer
Good Year WX-8 Storm Scope

You could not come remotely close to duplicating that avionics kit for twenty grand - you'd eat up most of twenty on the S-Tec 55X alone.

The avionics suite in the cheaper one is pretty much fit for boat-anchor duty.

---

Edit: You see what I did there with the text colors? Pretty clever, right?!?

good job with the colors......


Let's say I live in somewhere like, uhhhhh...... Idaho, and, I want the 182 for flying day time VFR into a bunch of grass strips in the mountains. All I really need in life is a $500 iPad with Foreflight and a Forest Service map.

Yes, lots of great avionics in the expensive plane, but, for my mission, I don't know that I would value those. A good airframe and a good engine are the things that are most "valuable" to me.

The 2nd one has more in the panel than the first one has in the engine. Given the scarcity of a 182s with a decent panel, I'd take the 2nd. Given the engine on the first is 0 time and it's for sale... there's more to the story. I just bought a plane with a fresh overhaul... there was more to the story. Online ads are a starting point with maybe 1% of the information you need and half of that is probably misleading. If I were in the market for a 182P with a decent panel, I'd call both sellers, knowing I was going to have to shell out 30K or more to get a decent panel in the first one.

Yes, there is likely always "more to the story", but, if I thought the $69,900 was "fair", then the "story" may not be important, and I can move to the next step of scheduling a pre-buy and making a trip to inspect it.

The second one seems like there is "more to the story" where the owner only kept if for 18 months and now seems to want out of it.

 

[SCCutler]

good job with the colors......


Let's say I live in somewhere like, uhhhhh...... Idaho, and, I want the 182 for flying day time VFR into a bunch of grass strips in the mountains. All I really need in life is a $500 iPad with Foreflight and a Forest Service map.

Yes, lots of great avionics in the expensive plane, but, for my mission, I don't know that I would value those. A good airframe and a good engine are the things that are most "valuable" to me.

And that, sir, makes perfect sense.

But if I was buying that plane, I might use the geriatric avionics as points of negotiation.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Seems to me some sellers are real prima donnas. They act as if any offer under their asking price is a sign they are dealing with a tire kicker. Just because your technique is to ask for logbooks early on doesn't make that the only way to do business.

I'm not a mechanic. There is a time and place to review logbooks when the expert can look at them. IF the airplane meets my requirements otherwise, logbooks will be reviewed during the annual or prebuy. Just because I show no interest in them at first doesn't mean I'm not really interested in your airplane.

Don't judge a book by its cover. Don't assume that guy asking about the condition of the seats and headliner isn't a real buyer because he hasn't grilled you about the logbooks. Your priorities aren't necessarily the same as mine.

That's OK too, but I'm talking people who aren't asking a single question other than "How low will you go?" or "Will you take $XXX?" They're shopping solely on price, which is pretty foolish IMO.

Of course, maybe the problem is that I think I'm selling the lowest-asking-price Ovation on the market right now, so I'm attracting low-ballers.

 

[poadeleted21]

good job with the colors......


Let's say I live in somewhere like, uhhhhh...... Idaho, and, I want the 182 for flying day time VFR into a bunch of grass strips in the mountains. All I really need in life is a $500 iPad with Foreflight and a Forest Service map.

Yes, lots of great avionics in the expensive plane, but, for my mission, I don't know that I would value those. A good airframe and a good engine are the things that are most "valuable" to me.
.

Rent. With those Avionics, you aren't going anywhere in Idaho 9 months out of the year... Well, you're not in the market for the nice panel plane then. apples, oranges.

I based my plane 30 miles east of Moose Creek, ID for the past 3 years, for every 2 times I made it to the airport, I might have actually flown once, and for every 10 times I made it to the airport, maybe once was the weather good enough to exit the pattern VFR.

 

[docmirror]

Me. I've accepted what some people would call low balls before - more than once.

And guess what - we were both happy. Him, for he got a great deal. Me, because I ALSO got a great deal by not tying up the cash needlessly in something I no longer needed.

Rather simple in the end.

I guess you are the ONE then.

 

[wabower]

You might want to consider that the buying public includes both price buyers and value buyers. That doesn't mean that both won't eventually become interested in the other side of the equation (if you accept the lowball offer they will immediately ask what's wrong with it and why are you selling it so cheap?) but IMO their initial approach doesn't mean as much as you're trying to read into it.

That's OK too, but I'm talking people who aren't asking a single question other than "How low will you go?" or "Will you take $XXX?" They're shopping solely on price, which is pretty foolish IMO.

Of course, maybe the problem is that I think I'm selling the lowest-asking-price Ovation on the market right now, so I'm attracting low-ballers.

 

[onwards]

I guess you are the ONE then.

I disagree. What do you think people are doing when they trade their cars in to the dealer for a new one? dealers are institutionalized low-ballers. It's just wrapped up in a nice package, but in the end, it's a seller (the current owner) accepting what is about the lowest possible offer for their old car.

 

[comanchepilot]

Mmm hmm... I talked to some sellers like that, their plane's are still for sale after 1-2-3 years now.. Currently aware that the first plane I tried to buy about four years back hasn't left the ground or been started since, currently welded to the ramp with flats asking 3K less than I offered him for it.... buyer's still can't see the value in it so they'll just keep it.

Seller sets the initial price. If it does not sell, then it's priced too high for condition and equipment. :wink2:

 

[comanchepilot]

I bought my Cherokee 180 for $42k and sold it 2 years later for $44k and had a line out the door. (2002-2004) Put 300 hours on it in 2 years. Good solid airplane.

 

[JoseCuervo]

If I were in the market for a 182P with a decent panel, I'd call both sellers, knowing I was going to have to shell out 30K or more to get a decent panel in the first one.

Here is an interesting look at the "value" of the avionics in the second plane.

The seller states:

Super Avionics (over $63,000 Invested)

He is selling a plane for $88,900 and telling a "story" that there are $63k in avionics in the plane. bartmc, up above, values an upgraded panel at $30k.

The seller is still "clinging" to a $63k value that somebody may or may not have put in the plane for that cost, some time in the past. Given the seller only had the plane for 18 months, it is not clear who actually "invested" the money. But, it seems like the seller knows they aren't getting all their money out of the avionics upgrade if they are only asking "avionics+$26k" for the plane. We know the seller is "losing" money on the avionics, now, we are just negotiating on how much he is losing.

Other planes in the same year.

1974 Cessna 182P Skylane
Reg#: N9992G S/N: 18263451
$82,000 TTAF: 5370

1974 Cessna 182P Skylane
Reg#: XB-TUE S/N: 18262681
$80,000 TTAF: 2794
Loc: TX

1974 Cessna 182P Skylane
Reg#: N52332 S/N: 18262534
$88,000 TTAF: 4567

1974 Cessna 182P Skylane
Reg#: N52556 S/N: 18262673
$85,000 TTAF: 7480
Loc:
WY

1976 Cessna 182P Skylane
Reg#: N1387M S/N: 18264308
$59,000 TTAF: 2834

1976 Cessna 182P Skylane
Reg#: N1355S S/N: 18264918
$60,000 TTAF: 4849

1976 Cessna 182P Skylane
Reg#: N9899M S/N: 18264796
$78,800 TTAF: 5266

If I have $60k in my pocket, is it "rude" of me to shoot all the guys above an email and ask them if they will take $60k for their plane? We know at least 2 of them would take it, would a third one jump at it?

 

[denverpilot]

I'd like to hear from ONE person here who's accepted a low-ball offer in their life. Not me, I'd rather let it sit and rot to dust.

I've taken low-ball offers on stuff. Not airplanes, but stuff that had truly become a pain in my butt in life that I'd already gotten all the value I wanted out of it. Let someone else have their "dream" [insert toy here] and get it the heck out of my life.

Sometimes you don't care what "market value" is. You just want the thing to go away. In the end, your stuff owns you, not the other way around.

I believe I could've gotten more out of certain cars or trucks, for example... but they'd become a liability bigger than the so-called "loss" on the sale. Same with some Ham Radio gear.

A lot of that is the different mindset of not buying these things on credit. Buy it cash, you use it for a number of years, you're happy with the cost-per-year and anything made at the sale just lowers that number creating a bigger smile. Everybody wins.

Harder to apply to airplanes at today's prices, but save those pennies...

Speaking of cash, that's another thing. There is almost nothing one can buy that one can't negotiate a cash discount on these days. Many sellers will take a lower price on things just to not have to hassle with someone's delays and financing and blah, blah, blah. Cashiers checks, talk. Always have.

Most small businesses will do it by giving you back the credit card fees they would have paid. Totally against the credit card company rules, if they catch a business favoring cash they'll pull their card eligibility from the business. The savvy business owners write it up as "customer loyalty discount" or similar, and no one at the credit card company is any the wiser. They have bigger fish to fry.

Show me da money... and have a pickup truck to haul that thing away today... Often works very well.

For some, it works with airplanes too.

 

[denverpilot]

That's OK too, but I'm talking people who aren't asking a single question other than "How low will you go?" or "Will you take $XXX?" They're shopping solely on price, which is pretty foolish IMO.

Of course, maybe the problem is that I think I'm selling the lowest-asking-price Ovation on the market right now, so I'm attracting low-ballers.

Sounds more like they're trying to reach up a rung higher than they can afford. They see a low priced Ovation and figure it may be a distressed seller and just ask.

If they get the low price they want, they think they can afford to fly and maintain it. They're probably wrong.

 

[Ted]

Jose, we all have a budget, and we all want to get the most for our money. But there's a point where you're wasting your time as well as someone else's.

With airplaness, dollar signs add up very quickly. If you can't afford a $20k difference between two airplanes (just using $20k as an example, but it's probably not a bad number), it's entirely possible you can't afford the plane. While you getting in over your head isn't my problem as a seller, per se, it's been my experience that buyers who aren't in the best position to afford an item (plane, truck, whatever) are typically the ones who are the most difficult to deal with, and usually just prove to be a waste of time.

 

[wabower]

Not saying it doesn't happen but the only non-cash airplane deals I've ever seen (3 out of several hundred) have been with banks as sellers.

Show me da money... and have a pickup truck to haul that thing away today... Often works very well.

For some, it works with airplanes too.

 

[Ted]

Not saying it doesn't happen but the only non-cash airplane deals I've ever seen (3 out of several hundred) have been with banks as sellers.

Wayne, haven't you learned by now that experience is no match for speculation?

 

[Steve Foley]

Jose, we all have a budget, and we all want to get the most for our money. But there's a point where you're wasting your time as well as someone else's.

This is why I have no problem with the original post, where someone will call and ask if seller will take 60% of the asking price. That way they're not setting up an appointment and spending a few hours looking at the logs only to make a low offer later. Let it be known up from you're making a low offer.

A friend of mine saw a motorcycle parked on a neighbor's lawn with a for sale sign. He stopped by to ask about it. Seller said "I'm looking for $30,000" (It was a custom built chopper). Buyer said, "That's a nice bike, but I've been looking at $13,000 bikes." and they parted.

A week later seller called buyer and said "Will you give me $13,000 for it?".

 

[wabower]

Buyer's market research should include a spreadsheet of apparent value based on year, TTAF, engine SMOH, avionics, instrumentation, paint and interior, mods & STC's, damage, etc.

Understanding the entire market is key to negotiating a deal, and may also highlight the most probable "next to sell" airplane in the group. When talking price with the seller, asking him "are you aware of your competition" can be a good question. When you then thumbnail the other airplanes with better apparent value, his response may quickly tell you whether he's a real prospect for a deal.

Having all of the values pegged can also help determine buyer's strategy regarding pursuit of airplanes in far-away places. If a near-by plane is 2500 more than one that appears to be almost identical that lives 2,500 miles away, which will be the lower cost plane based on total money sepnt to get it in hyour hangar?

The unfortunate story of owners buying planes, dumping a ton into the panel or new engine or whatever and then selling them quickly is quite common. When they buy them they think they will own them forever, then find they have over-spent or their situation changes and makes the plane expendable or a "must sell" item.

Here is an interesting look at the "value" of the avionics in the second plane.

The seller states:


He is selling a plane for $88,900 and telling a "story" that there are $63k in avionics in the plane. bartmc, up above, values an upgraded panel at $30k.

The seller is still "clinging" to a $63k value that somebody may or may not have put in the plane for that cost, some time in the past. Given the seller only had the plane for 18 months, it is not clear who actually "invested" the money. But, it seems like the seller knows they aren't getting all their money out of the avionics upgrade if they are only asking "avionics+$26k" for the plane. We know the seller is "losing" money on the avionics, now, we are just negotiating on how much he is losing.

Other planes in the same year.















If I have $60k in my pocket, is it "rude" of me to shoot all the guys above an email and ask them if they will take $60k for their plane? We know at least 2 of them would take it, would a third one jump at it?

 

[Ted]

This is why I have no problem with the original post, where someone will call and ask if seller will take 60% of the asking price. That way they're not setting up an appointment and spending a few hours looking at the logs only to make a low offer later. Let it be known up from you're making a low offer.

A friend of mine saw a motorcycle parked on a neighbor's lawn with a for sale sign. He stopped by to ask about it. Seller said "I'm looking for $30,000" (It was a custom built chopper). Buyer said, "That's a nice bike, but I've been looking at $13,000 bikes." and they parted.

A week later seller called buyer and said "Will you give me $13,000 for it?".

Point taken, and it's far more annoying to have people waste your time with a low-ball post inspection.

However, I'm like Jesse. I'll find someone who's selling what I want at a fair price and leave it at that. Never felt like I got ripped off, and given that people have typically wondered how I get such good deals, I guess it's a secret methothat works well.

 

[Steve Foley]

However, I'm like Jesse. I'll find someone who's selling what I want at a fair price and leave it at that.

I feel the same way. I won't go look at something if I'm not willing to pay the asking price. In fact, a long time ago, I had to talk a woman UP in price. She was selling a 1978 Trans Am in 1985. She said "I'd like to get $1000 for it". It was worth much more, so I gave her $1500.

 

[steingar]

Keeping an airplane for the "appropriate" price seems to me like a loosing proposition. You can do that with a car or a bike, they sit in your garage and aren't really harmed by it, you can start them up from time to time. Might even make sense for a house if you're still living in it.

Airplanes live in hangars which cost money. If they live in a hangar they're paying insurance, money. They need an annual inspection, potentially lots of money (thinking about the $14,000 annual here). They're expensive as all get out to operate, and degenerate when they don't.

I don't care what valuation service anyone uses to figure out what their aircraft is worth. Like it or not, the airplane is worth exactly what a customer is willing to pay.

 

[Gerhardt]

Point taken, and it's far more annoying to have people waste your time with a low-ball post inspection.

However, I'm like Jesse. I'll find someone who's selling what I want at a fair price and leave it at that. Never felt like I got ripped off, and given that people have typically wondered how I get such good deals, I guess it's a secret methothat works well.

I agree when it comes to most things. I don't want to better my position by taking advantage of someone else who may be desperate. People say it's business, but unless you're in the business....it's personal. And I'd like the person I'm dealing with to think of me as someone with honesty and integrity.

Now, when it comes to buying a new car, all bets are off, but that's business.

Several years ago I put a 150 on ebay and got calls from all over the country and at all hours of the day and night. Maybe 50-60 calls, and just as many emails, not one of them serious. A lot of people who just like to talk about planes, too. The plane was in very good condition and I was asking an attractive price to try to move it quickly, and I was amazed at how many "I'll give you five grand" calls I got.

Conversely, when I was looking to buy I was surprised at the number of times I'd show up only to find things the sellers had neglected to mention, even after talking with them on the phone AND ASKING if there was anything less than perfect.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Point taken, and it's far more annoying to have people waste your time with a low-ball post inspection.

Kind of depends on what is found in the inspection. If the airplane is exactly as advertised, then I would agree with you, but I have found that is often not the case (I have done quite a few pre-buys in the last couple years). Too often, owners think that because they spent alot of money maintaining an airplane that it must be in excellent shape.

When I bought my 170, the overall airframe was in decent shape and engine was good/low-time. But there were about 5k worth of airworthiness discrepancies that needed to be addressed in order to pass an annual.

They wanted $28k. I told them that there were two options - They could address all of the airworthiness discrepancies, or I would take the plane as-is for $24k. They took my offer and felt that it was fair.