AOPA Renewal??

Really?

Nothing about how the organization is faring under his leadership?

How do you measure this alleged drifting? What is OAPA if not a special interest group? What difference in accountability has accompanied Fuller's tenure?

How many who post on this board are declining the salary and benefits afforded them by their employment? Are you turning some back?

I use limos and sedans for travel too. The difference in cost is nominal and I can actually wear the same clothes to the meeting as I was wearing when I got in the cab.

What business purpose would be appropriate for an executive jet other than transporting executives?

Should all advocacy groups stop selling T-shirts and caps? If offering aircraft insurance is so bad, why do so many owners think it's such a good product? and continue to buy it?

Who sets executive and employee comp at AOPA? Do you think Fuller does it?

Who are your top three choices to take his job? What are their chops?





Fearless Tower said:
To begin with, he is the head of the organization and since taking over, I have seen AOPA drift further from a mission of representing GA as a whole to catering to special interest groups. AOPA was by no means perfect before Craig, but it has most definitely not gotten better. Call me old fashioned, but I believe an executive needs to have some degree of accountability to the members. If the executive fails to represent the interests of the shareholders, that exec needs to be shown the door. For the record, this problem is not limited to AOPA. Lack of accountability of corporate leadership is becoming more and more common, unfortunately.

It goes back to my comment on the other thread - If you are going to insist that you need a high salary to stay around, you best produce or go home. So far Craig does not have much to show for his performance.

Other things I don't like:
-The abuse of position - his limosines wherever he goes (Boyer specifically felt that sort of treatment not proper for the position). The personal use of the private jet. I don't mind AOPA having a jet, but it should be for business only, not personal trips for Craig and staff.

-Production of products that specifically compete with other existing manufacturers in the industry that it supposedly supports. Why is an aviation advocacy group even trying to do this???

-Spending money on new studies to determine why aspiring pilots don't complete their training when the answer is right under our noses - most folks can't afford this thing called aviation.

-Paying execs huge salaries while the bulk of the staff are paid peanuts. It isn't just the members that have been leaving AOPA. Alot of great employees have gotten fed up and pulled chocks to go elsewhere.

-The fact that Craig scratches his head and says he is puzzled by the number of pilots leaving AOPA. That right there should tell you how out of touch with the membership he is.

Craig Fuller is NOT an effective leader.
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Join AOPA, behind the smoke, mirrors, sweet compensation and bizjets lies pro GA action. Action so awesome we cant tell you about it. Rumor has it Fuller was the one who flew seal team 6 into abotodad. <screech> what about the children err user fees.
 
AOPA gives a TON of free stuff & teaching aides to CFIs.

Who gives out Flight Training magazine essentially for free for life to anyone that wants it? Can think of some pilots that should read a few articles in it now and again.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
AOPA gives a TON of free stuff & teaching aides to CFIs.

Who gives out Flight Training magazine essentially for free for life to anyone that wants it? Can think of some pilots that should read a few articles in it now and again.
Click to expand...

Flight training mag is pathetic, same 3 articles over andover dig to the bottom of the pile at the fbo for one a decade old samearticles.
 
wabower said:
How many who post on this board are declining the salary and benefits afforded them by their employment? Are you turning some back?
Click to expand...

Oh good lord yes I have declined salary and benefits. Shucks, I even deliberately quit a high paying job in favor of a lower paying one because it fit the style of life I desired. Now that I think of, I chose that crazy downgrade several times in my life.

It isn't a bad way to argue your case, just not terribly universal.

Who sets executive and employee comp at AOPA? Do you think Fuller does it?
Click to expand...

AOPA doesn't represent that great an outlay to me to rate a great deal of my time, but I always enjoy learning new things, so I have rather quickly reviewed the bios of the board of trustees and Fuller, as well as some of AOPAs financial statements.

My summary of Fuller's compensation: A bunch of financially successful people are on the board of trustees and are used to high compensation. There is scant evidence to indicate any have spent more than a tiny portion of their lives living anywhere at or below middle class income or asset levels. Fuller was trained as a politician, has spent time in and around the halls of power for many decades (.e.g. Reagan and Bush administrations,) and has basically been marketing the influence and insider knowledge thus gained. This includes stints at other places that bought the service of his insider access and knowledge. The AOPA is but one of those places. His other skills do not stand out and while not the proverbial dime a dozen, not worthy of more than a couple hundred k a year compensation. The only thing AOPA should be paying him the big bucks for is that influence and knowledge. If it isn't proving effective he should be dumped as soon as a possible.

Who are your top three choices to take his job? What are their chops?
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Given the way the bylaws are written, the question is entirely theoretical. The group of financially successful people making up the board of trustees isn't seriously going to be taking outside suggestions.
 
flyingmoose said:
So I was sitting here with a letter from AOPA that says its time for me to renew. I really have mixed emotions on if I should send it in. On one hand it really is the only group that well help what is left of the industry, but on the other I don't know how much good they are doing. Maybe its because I can't see it, so..........

If you are a member, are you renewing?

Give me some reasons to renew?

And some reasons not to renew?

Just curious.
Click to expand...

I've never quite understood all the AOPA bashing. I think they're a great value:

- A voice for GA in Washington
- Very good magazine
- Great informational resources on their website
- Promote flight training with some excellent resources
- Great flight planning website

All for $40 a year? It's an excellent value I've happily paid for 35 years.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Oh good lord yes I have declined salary and benefits. Shucks, I even deliberately quit a high paying job in favor of a lower paying one because it fit the style of life I desired. Now that I think of, I chose that crazy downgrade several times in my life.
Click to expand...
Have you ever voluntarily declined salary and benefits to do the same job? I think that's what people are asking Fuller to do.
 
1600vw said:
From a students point of view I learn alot from the AOPA. The amount of info for student pilots that the AOPA offers is just awesome.
Click to expand...

Most of my students would agree with you. Face it, we need MORE students, so anything we can do to encourage flight training is good, and AOPA does a lot.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Oh good lord yes I have declined salary and benefits. Shucks, I even deliberately quit a high paying job in favor of a lower paying one because it fit the style of life I desired. Now that I think of, I chose that crazy downgrade several times in my life.

It isn't a bad way to argue your case, just not terribly universal.
Click to expand...

I think you twisted the question. It wasn't about changing or declining jobs for a different lifestyle, which I have done as well, but about declining to accept the salary and perks of the job currently held. I've only done that once, and it was some warrants and options that I didn't think were appropriate at the time.

AOPA doesn't represent that great an outlay to me to rate a great deal of my time, but I always enjoy learning new things, so I have rather quickly reviewed the bios of the board of trustees and Fuller, as well as some of AOPAs financial statements.

My summary of Fuller's compensation: A bunch of financially successful people are on the board of trustees and are used to high compensation. There is scant evidence to indicate any have spent more than a tiny portion of their lives living anywhere at or below middle class income or asset levels.
Click to expand...

Is this noteworthy? Would you expect such a board to be composed of people who live under a bridge?

Fuller was trained as a politician, has spent time in and around the halls of power for many decades (.e.g. Reagan and Bush administrations,) and has basically been marketing the influence and insider knowledge thus gained. This includes stints at other places that bought the service of his insider access and knowledge. The AOPA is but one of those places.
Click to expand...

So is your conclusion that high-dollar influence peddlers should be good at peddling it? If your research were expanded to include the many special-interest advocate lobby groups, how many would display the same pattern of selecting and compensating their leaders?

His other skills do not stand out and while not the proverbial dime a dozen, not worthy of more than a couple hundred k a year compensation.
Click to expand...

Did you research the influence peddling market in DC to determine this price range for his services or just swag it?

The only thing AOPA should be paying him the big bucks for is that influence and knowledge. If it isn't proving effective he should be dumped as soon as a possible.
Click to expand...

Which finds us back at the top of the page. How does an outsider who will never know what's going on be able to evaluate his effectiveness?

Given the way the bylaws are written, the question is entirely theoretical. The group of financially successful people making up the board of trustees isn't seriously going to be taking outside suggestions.
Click to expand...

On paper, maybe, but given the publicity surrounding the unrest at EAA that caused them to change horses, I'm less confident that the board would circle the wagons for Fuller if he is thought to be stumbling badly.
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I stopped AOPA, then reupped after wanting their premium legal services plan to have some backup working at a non-unionized company.

Here is why AOPA works for me:

- Legal backup just in case I have a pilot violation, or any other aviation legal matter I need help on.
- Medical help in case I have some issues that might get in the way of renewing my medical.
- Renters insurance because it better covers me flying aerobatic aircraft.

To me, that is all they are worth. I don't think they are a great advocate for GA, they toute big support, and I have no doubt AOPA likes GA, but I dont feel, nor see AOPA going to bat for GA. You hear about alphabet groups really backing the industry they represent like the NRA. The NRA is very active, very vocal and very powerful. In the end, I think AOPA is powerless in doing anything. Their magazine sucks, their forums suck, plain and simple.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Flight training mag is pathetic, same 3 articles over andover dig to the bottom of the pile at the fbo for one a decade old samearticles.
Click to expand...

Have you contributed an article to raise it up towards your level?

Sure there's repitition, flight training's not that big of a subject and not a lot that's new.

Particularly for Neophlytes, it's a great resource, and they can't beat the price. Year after year it's still there, things being said a slightly different way.
 
Oh wow, I walk away for a day and 3 pages. ha

Anyway, great conversation lots of pros and cons. I don't personally think its a rip off by any means at $45, but I just have never seen anything come from them, except a pretty good web sit. Seems to me like they just don't have the ability to get much done for the industry.
 
AOPA publishes the results of much of what is accomplished. For some, whatever they do isn't enough, although when asked for details the most high-pitched bitchers have few specifics other than officers' comp or other vague issues that cause them to wrap around the axle.

An unbiased then-vs-now comparison of the degree of difficulty faced by GA-sponsored organizations would be an interesting study. I can't remember another era in which the President's anti-GA sentiments were so strongly focused on us, but then again class warfare hasn't been a primary strategy in the past.


comp
flyingmoose said:
Oh wow, I walk away for a day and 3 pages. ha

Anyway, great conversation lots of pros and cons. I don't personally think its a rip off by any means at $45, but I just have never seen anything come from them, except a pretty good web sit. Seems to me like they just don't have the ability to get much done for the industry.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
AOPA publishes the results of much of what is accomplished. For some, whatever they do isn't enough, although when asked for details the most high-pitched bitchers have few specifics other than officers' comp or other vague issues that cause them to wrap around the axle.

An unbiased then-vs-now comparison of the degree of difficulty faced by GA-sponsored organizations would be an interesting study. I can't remember another era in which the President's anti-GA sentiments were so strongly focused on us, but then again class warfare hasn't been a primary strategy in the past.


comp
Click to expand...

So is it your stance that there really isn't enough information to say one way or the other how much they as an organization really contribute.

I don't mind being part of an organization that helps promote our cause. Its not really about the money at all, more just a conversation about if its worth everyone being involved in it or not. If not do we need a "New" organization? Just my 2 cents
 
Ask the pilot flying 40 years and you get one answer. Ask the pilot flying 2 years and you get another answer.

There is a man with a bird in my hangar and that bird has not moved in 20 some years. The owner of the airpark told me this man is thinking of working on that bird.
I mentioned that this man received a DUI 20 some years ago and was this the reason it has been setting.

He said that Ralph, the owner of the bird, was never convicted of DUI but he filled the paper work out wrong.

I asked, does Ralph belong to the AOPA? Dave, owner of airpark, gave me this really stupid look, like I fell off a truck. He said, what does that matter.

I said, the AOPA has a legal department setup for just this type of problem. They will help him with all the paperwork to get his certificate back.

Dave just looked at me again like I was from Mars. I told him tell ralph to call the AOPA's legal department and ask for help, I hope he does this. Ralph is an A&P IA and I offered to help in anyway I could to get that bird flying again. It needs a Prop amoung other things...its a Comanche..

So maybe the AOPA and EAA do not do alot, but one thing they do that I have found no one else can do is...Bring People Together...I have been racking my little brain trying to think of a way to...Bring other pilots like me.....Together in my area.....

As a new pilot I receive alot from the EAA and AOPA...Other pilots, Info and more info, training... As the man or women flying for years and years with thousands of hours might say....Nothing for me.....Please remember us Newbies look to you... we need you as much if not more then we need another Newbies.

My hat goes off to all PP....

H.A.S.

P.S I hope no one minds me calling student pilots " Newbies"....For I am a...Newbie myself...
Merry Christmas or whatever you call it and I hope everyone can have some happyness this season...My thoughts and Prayers are with those in Newtown Ct. as I am sure yours are too...
 
1600vw said:
From a students point of view I learn alot from the AOPA. The amount of info for student pilots that the AOPA offers is just awesome.
Click to expand...

I'll agree with this, hands down. Being a student, the AOPA is really a great resource in a lot of ways. Their website, the emails, the printed information...it's detailed, explanatory, inexpensive, easy to understand, and always relevant.

My grandfather and uncle were both long time members, and just as here, they both cited the +/-'s, getting into mini debates about it if was worth it or not, which I can certainly see, and I agree with points from both sides.

But as a student earning their ticket, I would absolutely recommend the AOPA for all other students. After the ticket and some experience, it just depends on your views and how you side with some of these topics discussed.
 
1600vw said:
So maybe the AOPA and EAA do not do alot, but one thing they do that I have found no one else can do is...Bring People Together...I have been racking my little brain trying to think of a way to...Bring other pilots like me.....Together in my area.....

As a new pilot I receive alot from the EAA and AOPA...Other pilots, Info and more info, training... As the man or women flying for years and years with thousands of hours might say....Nothing for me.....Please remember us Newbies look to you... we need you as much if not more then we need another Newbies.

My hat goes off to all PP....

H.A.S.

P.S I hope no one minds me calling student pilots " Newbies"....For I am a...Newbie myself...
Merry Christmas or whatever you call it and I hope everyone can have some happyness this season...My thoughts and Prayers are with those in Newtown Ct. as I am sure yours are too...
Click to expand...
Very well put, thank you for that!
 
The information is there, it's just not available to the public. Lobby groups work behind the scenes to shape the output of legislation, rules, regs, interpretations, a big part of which involves intelligence-gathering activities about proposed measures and tactics. Some of the work is with bureaucratic staff, some with legislative staff, some with the elected officials themselves.

In many cases the best lobby work is helping to kill some half-ass deal before it ever sees the light of day in a sub-committee meeting or learning about what's being proposed by a regulator or MOC. That information will never be public, nor should anybody expect such disclosures.

OTOH, much has been made of the pilots bill of rights that was pushed through after a prominent official got his tit in the wringer. A blow-by-blow of AOPA's involvement in that case would be interesting to read, although it won't be written any time soon, if ever.

flyingmoose said:
So is it your stance that there really isn't enough information to say one way or the other how much they as an organization really contribute.

I don't mind being part of an organization that helps promote our cause. Its not really about the money at all, more just a conversation about if its worth everyone being involved in it or not. If not do we need a "New" organization? Just my 2 cents
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
The information is there, it's just not available to the public. Lobby groups work behind the scenes to shape the output of legislation, rules, regs, interpretations, a big part of which involves intelligence-gathering activities about proposed measures and tactics. Some of the work is with bureaucratic staff, some with legislative staff, some with the elected officials themselves.

In many cases the best lobby work is helping to kill some half-ass deal before it ever sees the light of day in a sub-committee meeting or learning about what's being proposed by a regulator or MOC. That information will never be public, nor should anybody expect such disclosures.

OTOH, much has been made of the pilots bill of rights that was pushed through after a prominent official got his tit in the wringer. A blow-by-blow of AOPA's involvement in that case would be interesting to read, although it won't be written any time soon, if ever.
Click to expand...


Hmmmmm...

They defend us from unknown legislation, upcoming laws are not public info :goofy::dunno:. It's all smoke and mirrors to scare us into paying the annual fee because without them we would loose our rights to fly.:no::nonod:

The way you put it the whole thing looks like a mob shake down routine, "you pay us and we will protect you from the boogie man" skit.

This reminds me of the classic line in the Wizard of Oz movie...
"( ignore the man behind the curtain)".. As it turns out the entire Oz was a fantasy to promote the wizards hold on the unknown... IMHO..

Ps.. I bet the wizard didn't make 813,000 a year with all the other perks thrown in too. Of course, they didn't have Citation jets back then either.:rolleyes:
 
N801BH said:
Tony Fletcher's second post since joining POA....Hmmm.

And he is from Alexandria VA... isn't that the home of AOPA ??:dunno::rolleyes:

I have 10 bucks he is a AOPA employee.. or a close friend to someone.:yes:
Click to expand...

Busted! After commuting from Alexandria to Frederick, MD (about sixty-five miles) I come home and defend AOPA online!

Sorry-just a member. I too have my pros/coms with the organization, but taking issue with the fact that they use/own a business jet is absurd. They are an advocate for GA and that includes those who use aircraft for business.
 
Tony_Fletcher said:
Busted! After commuting from Alexandria to Frederick, MD (about sixty-five miles) I come home and defend AOPA online!

Sorry-just a member. I too have my pros/coms with the organization, but taking issue with the fact that they use/own a business jet is absurd. They are an advocate for GA and that includes those who use aircraft for business.
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:(:redface:PM me your address... I will send ya the 10 bucks:sad:....
 
I'd like to see any lobbying groups publish their previous contributions for any given year, any group.:dunno: No lobbbyist tells what they have done or who they talked into or out of any particular legislation or rule. By their very nature lobbyists are behind the scenes people, no congresscritter wants to be associated with ANY lobbyist. It wouldn't look good for any democrat to associate with any organization that promotes rich pilots, but they do, just not in the public. Just because we don't get a report, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. :rolleyes: My experience with the out of touch elite, such as the DC crowd, is they listen to those whom they think know the subject at hand. If we don't have some folks up there, then they will assume the green anti-100 LL crowd has all the answers. :mad2:
And hell, it's only $50.00 :D

N801BH said:
Hmmmmm...

They defend us from unknown legislation, upcoming laws are not public info :goofy::dunno:. It's all smoke and mirrors to scare us into paying the annual fee because without them we would loose our rights to fly.:no::nonod:

The way you put it the whole thing looks like a mob shake down routine, "you pay us and we will protect you from the boogie man" skit.

This reminds me of the classic line in the Wizard of Oz movie...
"( ignore the man behind the curtain)".. As it turns out the entire Oz was a fantasy to promote the wizards hold on the unknown... IMHO..

Ps.. I bet the wizard didn't make 813,000 a year with all the other perks thrown in too. Of course, they didn't have Citation jets back then either.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
The players don't make the rules, they just play the game. The lobby game hasn't changed for 200+ years other than the requirements to register and disclose.

Hubert Humphrey is quoted as saying "Coaching football and being involved in politics have a lot in common. You gotta be smart enough to understand how the game is played and dumb enough to think it's important."

N801BH said:
Hmmmmm...

They defend us from unknown legislation, upcoming laws are not public info :goofy::dunno:. It's all smoke and mirrors to scare us into paying the annual fee because without them we would loose our rights to fly.:no::nonod:

The way you put it the whole thing looks like a mob shake down routine, "you pay us and we will protect you from the boogie man" skit.

This reminds me of the classic line in the Wizard of Oz movie...
"( ignore the man behind the curtain)".. As it turns out the entire Oz was a fantasy to promote the wizards hold on the unknown... IMHO..

Ps.. I bet the wizard didn't make 813,000 a year with all the other perks thrown in too. Of course, they didn't have Citation jets back then either.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
 
ClimbnSink said:
Flight training mag is pathetic, same 3 articles over andover dig to the bottom of the pile at the fbo for one a decade old samearticles.
Click to expand...

Every year a new crop of pilots arrives on the scene, ready to absorb information. If the AOPA prints similar articles (about icing or thunderstorms, for example) over and over, it is because to the newbies it is fresh information.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Every year a new crop of pilots arrives on the scene, ready to absorb information. If the AOPA prints similar articles (about icing or thunderstorms, for example) over and over, it is because to the newbies it is fresh information.

Bob Gardner
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They have a thing for that it is called a book. If new pilots are getting value from retreads in that mag alls good.
 
wabower said:
I do. Perhaps therein lies the difference.
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Isn't that just special.

You must be very very special to (think you) know why I don't rejoin the AOPA.

:rolleyes2:
 
ClimbnSink said:
They have a thing for that it is called a book. If new pilots are getting value from retreads in that mag alls good.
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FWIW: The last new private pilot book I remember was the so-called humerous one, in the mid 90s, by Machado. Same material as always but not "dry" -the most often cited complaint of new readers.

I always thought anything about actual flying and aerodynamics was plenty good, all by itself. They probably don't know dry wine is the best either....
 
Bob Noel said:
Isn't that just special.

You must be very very special to (think you) know why I don't rejoin the AOPA.

:rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

Yup all those old fudd AOPA types know pilots are dropping them because pilots are too cheap. It is OK, they have a plan they will just lure pilots back with a wine club. Maybe a soft cheese club as well, don't want to irritate AOPA members dentures.:lol:
 
I will say I am disappointed in AOPA. I am a student pilot and I needed to get insurance before my wife would let me fly. I thought I would check the rates AOPA offered by filling out their online application. Well after filling out all the details on my life, it says something like "Thank you, we will be in contact with you within the next 60 days". WHAT?? 60 days. I couldn't wait that long to simply find out what my rate would be with them. I wanted to start flying. I got another plan with another company the next day and decided to contact AOPA to cancel the insurance. When I called them, they said they didnt have any record of my application and couldn't do anything about it. That got me concerned, so I asked who is handling my insurance with them and they didnt know. Now I am thinking, great. I just applied for insurance online and have no idea who has all my personal information. I try them a few days later and finally speak to someone whom tells me a phone number to call, so I contact that number and they tell me they can not cancel any applications until they are fully processed. What a joke. Then about 30 days later I get a call from someone from some insurance company asking to setup an appointment to draw blood. I told them I went with another company and to cancel my application. I'm not sure if any of you use their insurance, but that was not a good first experience with the AOPA for me.
 
When I bought my airplane I called AOPA and received a verbal quote over the phone with a written one via e-mail. I did better with a local broker so I went with him.
 
At the end of the day, AOPA does a decent job while trying to keep GA alive. Sure, AOPA has made some bonehead moves that have backfired but I can't fault them for trying something new. There not perfect!

Bottom line, I'll continue to support AOPA until I have had enough and stop flying.
 
flyingmoose said:
So I was sitting here with a letter from AOPA that says its time for me to renew. I really have mixed emotions on if I should send it in. On one hand it really is the only group that well help what is left of the industry, but on the other I don't know how much good they are doing. Maybe its because I can't see it, so..........

If you are a member, are you renewing?

Give me some reasons to renew?

And some reasons not to renew?

Just curious.
Click to expand...

I haven't renewed for over a year now..just got an email to renew for only $25 just might take them up on their offer... So if you can hold out for 6 month or less or longer might be worth it... What's $25 bucks...:yes::goofy:
 
As a group, are pilots better off with or without AOPA/EAA? It's $40 people, not $400.
 
flyingmoose said:
That is the question we are looking to talk about. If you read back a bit, it has been said that its not about the money.
Click to expand...

Ok, went back to the beginning of thread. If someone is looking for an excuse not to write a check to AOPA they can find one. The fact that AOPA gives you a voice in DC for $40 more than makes up for any faults one can find.
 
vintage cessna said:
Ok, went back to the beginning of thread. If someone is looking for an excuse not to write a check to AOPA they can find one. The fact that AOPA gives you a voice in DC for $40 more than makes up for any faults one can find.
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Except no one can prove AOPA has a voice in DC. What we know: AOPA fear mongers for members, and pays execs lavish salaries. All advocacy orgs end up in the bloated uselessness boat, let the shriveled old AOPA hacks die peacefully.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
Have you contributed an article to raise it up towards your level?

Sure there's repitition, flight training's not that big of a subject and not a lot that's new.

Particularly for Neophlytes, it's a great resource, and they can't beat the price. Year after year it's still there, things being said a slightly different way.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind their target audience turns over ever 6-12 months. An article that appeared 18 months ago would be reaching a whole new group of student pilots.
 
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