Alec Baldwin shoots and kills cinematographer.

Tantalum said:
Based on this accident. That's my point, this is either normal for Hollywood which is crazy, or, this movie was operating far outside any kind of reasonable practice
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Or Baldwin was just ****ing around doing something he shouldn't have been doing or . . . . It isn't normal for Hollywood, and a number of people who've spent time on sets getting paid have already said so in this thread.
 
Before some of y’all start the Baldwin, “lock him up, lock him up “chant at the next rally,
pilots know that accidents are a chain of events. Here’s the chain:

1. Low budget production
2. Novice armorer (also a female, hence less likely to be listened to)
3. F*ckup AD
4. Young cinematographer (also female)
5. Crew just back from lunch (hence rushed)
6. Cinematographer & director wanted to rehearse the shot one more time (rushed)
7. Crew had been using the prop guns for live target practice (bad habits)
8. Guns not re-safed after lunch (bad habits)
9. Cinematographer lined up a shot with a gun without a protective screen (bad habits)
10. Director let shot be lined up without a screen & without safing the gun (bad habits/rush)
11. Director was shooting with natural light (rush)
 
NorthEast Ohio said:
Before some of y’all start the Baldwin, “lock him up, lock him up “chant at the next rally,
pilots know that accidents are a chain of events. Here’s the chain:

1. Low budget production
2. Novice armorer (also a female, hence less likely to be listened to)
3. F*ckup AD
4. Young cinematographer (also female)
5. Crew just back from lunch (hence rushed)
6. Cinematographer & director wanted to rehearse the shot one more time (rushed)
7. Crew had been using the prop guns for live target practice (bad habits)
8. Guns not re-safed after lunch (bad habits)
9. Cinematographer lined up a shot with a gun without a protective screen (bad habits)
10. Director let shot be lined up without a screen & without safing the gun (bad habits/rush)
11. Director was shooting with natural light (rush)
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I had read an article where some crew members had been complaining about the bad conditions on the set just hours before it happened.
 
NorthEast Ohio said:
Before some of y’all start the Baldwin, “lock him up, lock him up “chant at the next rally,
pilots know that accidents are a chain of events. Here’s the chain:

1. Low budget production
2. Novice armorer (also a female, hence less likely to be listened to)
3. F*ckup AD
4. Young cinematographer (also female)
5. Crew just back from lunch (hence rushed)
6. Cinematographer & director wanted to rehearse the shot one more time (rushed)
7. Crew had been using the prop guns for live target practice (bad habits)
8. Guns not re-safed after lunch (bad habits)
9. Cinematographer lined up a shot with a gun without a protective screen (bad habits)
10. Director let shot be lined up without a screen & without safing the gun (bad habits/rush)
11. Director was shooting with natural light (rush)
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Reportedly Baldwin was also the Producer of this movie, so more than one of those items above he may have contributed to.
 
PPC1052 said:
I see. You weren't following me. My appologies. Let me be a little clearer. I wasn't saying what I thought was true. I was asking a hypothetical to explore the application of the statute to various states of mind. Sort of the same Socratic method from law school.
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You are correct. I did misunderstand your post.
 
GaryM said:
12. Baldwin, without checking the condition of the firearm, cocked it, aimed it at the cinematographer, and pulled the trigger.

There was absolutely a chain of events leading up to the accident, but the last step in the chain can't be glossed over.
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Is that actually how it happened? He wasn’t practicing a quick draw from a sitting position in a church pew, and shot her in mid-draw? There are reports of that, too. I haven’t read any reports of him pointing the gun directly at a particular person and pulling the trigger intentionally. Maybe he did. I wasn’t there.
 
NorthEast Ohio said:
Before some of y’all start the Baldwin, “lock him up, lock him up “chant at the next rally,
pilots know that accidents are a chain of events. Here’s the chain:

1. Low budget production
2. Novice armorer (also a female, hence less likely to be listened to)
3. F*ckup AD
4. Young cinematographer (also female)
5. Crew just back from lunch (hence rushed)
6. Cinematographer & director wanted to rehearse the shot one more time (rushed)
7. Crew had been using the prop guns for live target practice (bad habits)
8. Guns not re-safed after lunch (bad habits)
9. Cinematographer lined up a shot with a gun without a protective screen (bad habits)
10. Director let shot be lined up without a screen & without safing the gun (bad habits/rush)
11. Director was shooting with natural light (rush)
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Based on my limited experience, I would offer the following:
1. Most movie sets are union sites, pay rate for the crew is even across sets.
2. Novice yes, ..female being less likely to be listened to-maybe, just like female crew in airlines.
3. Noted
4. Young cinematographer - how does age factor in?
5. Crew just back from lunch, hence rushed-not in my experience, after lunch is usually everybody just getting back into the swing of things.
6. One more rehearsal causes a rush not normally. You rehearse until the shot is right. Maybe making a small adjustment in the rehearsal changes the dynamic. BTW was this the first time that Baldwin pulled the trigger on that gun that day? If this rehearsal was in a series of rehearsals, does that change things?
7. WTF?
8. I always re-safe a gun 2-3 times, same as I always do a GUMPS check 2-3 times.
9. I haven't seen a protective screen on any set. Including when guns and explosions are involved. Ear protection and safety googles are the norm. As well as distancing the crew from the danger.
10. Noted
11. What time of day was the accident, when was twilight?
 
Lachlan said:
Is that actually how it happened? He wasn’t practicing a quick draw from a sitting position in a church pew, and shot her in mid-draw? There are reports of that, too. I haven’t read any reports of him pointing the gun directly at a particular person and pulling the trigger intentionally. Maybe he did. I wasn’t there.
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Perhaps he did shoot her in mid-draw from a seated position. I wasn't there either. But that still required cocking the gun, pointing it at the cinematographer (intentionally or not) and pulling the trigger. Whatever else might have happened, we know he did those three things. And just a couple of seconds spent checking the condition of the revolver would have prevented the tragedy. I find the excuse that on busy movie sets actors are expected to just trust the armorer and not check the guns themselves to be weak.

I don't think shooting anyone was intentional, and as I've said before, there is plenty of blame to be shared. Baldwin wasn't the only link in the accident chain. But he was the last link.
 
GaryM said:
12. Baldwin, without checking the condition of the firearm, cocked it, aimed it at the cinematographer, and pulled the trigger.

There was absolutely a chain of events leading up to the accident, but the last step in the chain can't be glossed over.
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Was it Baldwin's job to check the gun? Or is he an Actor working with a prop?

Is it your responsibility to check the brake pads when you pick up your car from the mechanic that repaired your brakes? Even when you drive through a school zone after and someone gets hit/hurt. No. We depend on others to do their job professionally.

The answers to this story will come out eventually. This is why we have judges, and juries. They get it right most of the time.
 
eaglepilot said:
Was it Baldwin's job to check the gun? Or is he an Actor working with a prop?

Is it your responsibility to check the brake pads when you pick up your car from the mechanic that repaired your brakes?
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He was an actor working with a functional firearm, so I'd argue it was his job to check and not trust that someone else had done it. And I don't think the 'that's not the way we do things on set' excuse cuts it.

I like the analogy of watching the line guy fuel my aircraft. When he drives away, I don't start up and fly off, because it was his job to make sure I was fueled correctly. No, I stick the tanks and check the sumps before engine start.
 
GaryM said:
He was an actor working with a functional firearm, so I'd argue it was his job to check and not trust that someone else had done it. And I don't think the 'that's not the way we do things on set' excuse cuts it.

I like the analogy of watching the line guy fuel my aircraft. When he drives away, I don't start up and fly off, because it was his job to make sure I was fueled correctly. No, I stick the tanks and check the sumps before engine start.
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I sense that we agree more than we disagree. If it was standard practice to have the actor check the firearm as the last link in the chain, I would agree with your point...but I don't think it is. When you fuel your plane and you check that the line guy has fueled the plane correctly, you are acting as PIC, not as a part of a group. Different level of responsibility.

As someone said, "Safety Rules are written in Blood". Sadly, I think that this a case in point. We'll see.
 
BrianNC said:
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James Arness didn't shoot anyone by accident, but he did end up getting shot himself...by a German machine gun during the battle of Anzio, from what I've read. The limp was apparent in the TV show.

He was a different caliber of person.
 
Lindberg said:
Or Baldwin was just ****ing around doing something he shouldn't have been doing or . . . . It isn't normal for Hollywood, and a number of people who've spent time on sets getting paid have already said so in this thread.
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Well if that really is the case then they should absolutely throw the book at him
 
NorthEast Ohio said:
7. Crew had been using the prop guns for live target practice (bad habits)
8. Guns not re-safed after lunch (bad habits)
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According to a public statement from the armorer, the handguns were stored in a safe inside a prop-trailer during lunch. It suggests that at least for that part of theday, a chain of custody of the gun was maintained. Assuming that people didn't take guns off the prop table for target practice while the filming was going on, there are a few possibilities:
A. gun was not safety checked in the morning prior to being cleared for use during that day
B. safety check was performed by someone who was unable to tell a dummy round from a live round already in the cylinder.
C. Gun was loaded with dummy rounds that morning and the armorer mistook a live round for a dummy

Either way, it's an issue of 'You had ONE job'.
 
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weilke said:
According to a public statement from the armorer, the handguns were stored in a safe inside a prop-trailer during lunch. It suggests that at least for that part , a custody of the gun was maintained. Assuming that people didn't take guns off the prop table for target practice during the the shoot, there are a few possibilities:
A. gun was not safety checked in the morning prior to being cleared for use during that day
B. safety check was performed by someone who was unable to tell a dummy round from a live round already in the cylinder.
C. Gun was loaded with dummy rounds that morning and the armorer mistook a live round for a dummy

Either way, it's an issue of 'You had ONE job'.
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Actually, according to Fox News, she was also working props. So, she had two jobs, which might have been yet another contributing factor.
 
eaglepilot said:
Was it Baldwin's job to check the gun? Or is he an Actor working with a prop?

Is it your responsibility to check the brake pads when you pick up your car from the mechanic that repaired your brakes? Even when you drive through a school zone after and someone gets hit/hurt. No. We depend on others to do their job professionally.

The answers to this story will come out eventually. This is why we have judges, and juries. They get it right most of the time.
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It’s everyone’s job to always be responsible when handling a firearm. Being on a movie set should not remove that liability.
 
If the headline were reversed, “Cinematographer Shoots and Kills Alec Baldwin,” does anyone doubt the cinematographer would be in jail and charged by now?
 
Half Fast said:
If the headline were reversed, “Cinematographer Shoots and Kills Alec Baldwin,” does anyone doubt the cinematographer would be in jail and charged by now?
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Yes, I doubt it so soon. Some would still be asking "What did Alec do to her...."
 
"Bad habit" is really "criminal negligence."

As seen in another movie:

SGT HARTMAN: What's the idea of looking down in the chamber?
PVT PYLE: Sir, that is the guarantee that the private is not giving the inspecting officer a loaded weapon, sir!
 
Half Fast said:
If the headline were reversed, “Cinematographer Shoots and Kills Alec Baldwin,” does anyone doubt the cinematographer would be in jail and charged by now?
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In fairness, It’s not the job of the cinematographer to pretend to shoot people (with a gun)
 
Salty said:
In fairness, It’s not the job of the cinematographer to pretend to shoot people (with a gun)
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True, but it’s not a cinematographer’s job to have people pretend to shoot him, either.
 
Lachlan said:
So you’re saying it won’t be covered by Workers’ Comp?
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It's also not a roofers 'job' to be crushed by a pallet of shingles yet workman's comp will pay if it happens.
 
Baldwin says it was a 1 in a trillion event. Are we supposed to say it’s OK because it’s rare? Oh, in that case, pilots practically never have heart attacks while flying, let’s not bother with them.

Still he’s exaggerating, it’s happened a half dozen times in the past 30 years.

If you follow gun safety, it’s a 1 in a never event.
 
bflynn said:
Baldwin says it was a 1 in a trillion event. Are we supposed to say it’s OK because it’s rare? Oh, in that case, pilots practically never have heart attacks while flying, let’s not bother with them.

Still he’s exaggerating, it’s happened a half dozen times in the past 30 years.

If you follow gun safety, it’s a 1 in a never event.
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God, you're making me defend Alec Baldwin. Statistically, it is an extremely rare event given the number of trigger pulls in movie sets annually. Does it mean that it doesn't need to be investigated to find root causes and potential best practice adjustments? No. Does it mean drastic changes to movie set rules or use of firearms need to occur? Also, no. It was rare, as are the number of fatal or even non-fatal firearm accidents from movie sets in the history of Hollywood. No one has to say "it's OK", but we do need to acknowledge that the statistical probability that there's a problem is well into the noise-level.

Same goes for knee-jerk reactions to GA aircraft accidents.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Statistically, it is an extremely rare event given the number of trigger pulls in movie sets annually.
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So, there were 6 trillion trigger pulls on movie sets in the past 30 years? That’s how many time it would take to expect 6 events by Baldwin’s number.

with ultra rare events, the events are the noise. There should be zero and zero is entirely achievable using just adherence to safety rules we already know.
 
bflynn said:
So, there were 6 trillion trigger pulls on movie sets in the past 30 years? That’s how many time it would take to expect 6 events by Baldwin’s number.

with ultra rare events, the events are the noise. There should be zero and zero is entirely achievable using just adherence to safety rules we already know.
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It's one thing to strive for zero incidents. It's another to expect them, statistically-speaking. Otherwise workers comp insurance would be a novelty item. Let's look at how many incidents happen in the law enforcement fields or even the military, where EVERYONE holding a firearm has been trained extensively. What? There are still accidents? Why isn't it zero? Humans operating the weapons is why. Complacency is why. Same reason we still have fuel exhaustion accidents.
 
eaglepilot said:
Was it Baldwin's job to check the gun? Or is he an Actor working with a prop?

Is it your responsibility to check the brake pads when you pick up your car from the mechanic that repaired your brakes? Even when you drive through a school zone after and someone gets hit/hurt. No. We depend on others to do their job professionally.

The answers to this story will come out eventually. This is why we have judges, and juries. They get it right most of the time.
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I certainly hope your last sentence is an attempt to beat the rush for April Fool’s Day…
 
With gun safety, the expectation SHOULD BE zero events. Anything else is negligent.

It is the job of everyone who picks up a gun to check the state of it.
 
bflynn said:
With gun safety, the expectation SHOULD BE zero events. Anything else is negligent.

It is the job of everyone who picks up a gun to check the state of it.
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You're going to be sorely disappointed in life if that's the result you expect to see. Reality shows that it will never be the case. Doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue perfection every time we pick up a weapon. If the military can't achieve it, it's silly to expect that a bunch of Hollywood employees are going to be able to do it.
 
eaglepilot said:
...The answers to this story will come out eventually. This is why we have judges, and juries. They get it right most of the time.
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Omalley1537 said:
I certainly hope your last sentence is an attempt to beat the rush for April Fool’s Day…
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Are you saying that judges and juries get it wrong most of the time?
 
SoonerAviator said:
You're going to be sorely disappointed in life if that's the result you expect to see. Reality shows that it will never be the case. Doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue perfection every time we pick up a weapon. If the military can't achieve it, it's silly to expect that a bunch of Hollywood employees are going to be able to do it.
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ah, gee wiz, I am disappointed. The standard is zero. Knowing that someone is going to mess it up is no reason not to pursue that. That’s again like saying we know pilots are going to run out of gas. We don’t shrug our shoulders and sa6 “oh well”.
 
bflynn said:
ah, gee wiz, I am disappointed. The standard is zero. Knowing that someone is going to mess it up is no reason not to pursue that. That’s again like saying we know pilots are going to run out of gas. We don’t shrug our shoulders and sa6 “oh well”.
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We don’t? What exactly are we doing about other pilots running out of gas?
 
Sorry, should have used green text to denote sarcasm.

the point is, we don’t accept things as inevitable. What can be prevented should. This shooting was preventable, basic gun safety rules were not followed and someone died.
 
SGOTI: "Baldwin is just an actor, he didn't know any better than to trust the word of the guy who handed him the gun"

Me: Then he bloody well shouldn't have had a gun in his hand under any circumstances, and the evidence in support of my position is the fact that one person is dead and another wounded.
 
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