Airline hiring

[kaiser]

That's what I think is happening.

From my non-aviation experience, the way around AI is 1) Network - Get to know someone in HR/recruiting to give your resume to; 2) find a recent hire, use their resume as a template (formatting, key words, etc).

 

[RyanShort1]

I'm not worried about it long-term. I'm currently employed and have nothing really to complain about, but I think that the alleged hiring desperation is more than a bit oversold at the moment.

 

[TCABM]

Sometimes it's not HR. Sometimes it's the AI that filters candidates prior to getting to the door.

That is craptastic ATS implementation.

 

[dmspilot]

I'm not worried about it long-term. I'm currently employed and have nothing really to complain about, but I think that the alleged hiring desperation is more than a bit oversold at the moment.

Regionals don't need FOs at all. There is no desperation.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

This article from today seemed relevant: "Spirit Airlines uncertainty has some pilots dusting off their resumes" (Reuters)
Though spirit is probably more of a unique situation.

Some content:


EDITED: due to brain-fart

 

[Tarheelpilot]

6500TT
Over 3000 complex
1100 Tailwheel
2400 Dual given
1 checkride fail - was CFI initial.
28 multi
10 years managing my aerial photography crew - 8 of which here in DFW, with crew operations and lots of ATC experience.

I'm hearing that it may be that I need to get to 50 multi to even be looked at. I'm working on that.

Have you considered night freight?

You’re obviously highly experienced and capable but your experience is not all that relevant to the airlines.

The life experience of being an adult and working carries a lot of weight but at the end of the day it doesn’t make up for relevant experience. With the type of time you have you are only slightly more competitive than a CFI with R-ATP mins.

I also agree that you are, most likely, not getting by the electronic gateway for a recruiter to even see your application.

As an example I have been back at the airlines for six years and just now have reached parity on my airline v.s. other more fun flying. When I came back in 2018 I had 1800 hours of 121 SIC. My interview was basically “which class date do you want.” They gave zero ****s about the 4000 hours of other experience in my log book. I even brought it up and was shut down with a direct “we don’t need any information about that” with an immediate segue to “will you be willing to upgrade at first opportunity.”

As far as any airline is concerned you’re just another guy that needs 1000 hours to upgrade. It will take effort to get hired.

From reading your posts it sounds like all you have done is apply. If that’s the case I would recommend working on getting more relevant experience and goto every recruiting event you can find. Wait in the lines and get some face time with the recruiters.

Also you were not explicit in where you have applied so I’ll add, just for clarity, it is highly unlikely you will get a job at mainline. If you want 121 it will be LCC or regional.

Welcome to the pile of **** that is HR hiring pilots.

 

[Oldmanb777]

Once upon a time it was about "Could you fly". Preemployment check rides and such with a strong recommendation from inside the pilot ranks. I was asked, after a recommendation. "how much have you flown with that person and can they work in a crew concept environment. " That was important. Then it went to an astronaut physical, but no mention of flying skills. Then it became, you have to get through the employment office. Past the people who can't spell airplane, let alone what one does. I remember my brother complaining that he has plenty of pilots who have flown B-727 night freight in 3rd world, but employment office won't look at them. They don't fit some employment office profile. These pilots know how not to bend metal when the chips are down after a long night. Now I hear horror stories from the people I know who are check airman and training the new hire pilots. So who makes it into the cockpit? It's a lot of luck as well as filling all the squares the way HR see's it.

 

[dmspilot]

2nd hand quote:
"I interviewed at Atlas in 2013. During the interview I was asked how am I any better than the others. While being humble I explained that I graduated a military pilot training program and that I had really good hands. The Human Resources guy told me that didn’t matter, they would teach me how to turn the autopilot on."

 

[Tarheelpilot]

2nd hand quote:
"I interviewed at Atlas in 2013. During the interview I was asked how am I any better than the others. While being humble I explained that I graduated a military pilot training program and that I had really good hands. The Human Resources guy told me that didn’t matter, they would teach me how to turn the autopilot on."

I would not have been successful at that interview.

 

[Doc Holliday]

While I was at an airline interview, the nice HR lady said "I have a few questions to ask you".

"OK" I said, and she proceeded.

"So, what do you consider your worst trait?"

I thought for a moment, then said "I'm honest".

She looked a bit stunned, then said "I don't think being honest can be considered a bad trait".

I replied " I don't give a crap what you think".

I wasn't hired.

 

[Jeff767]

6500TT
Over 3000 complex
1100 Tailwheel
2400 Dual given
1 checkride fail - was CFI initial.
28 multi
10 years managing my aerial photography crew - 8 of which here in DFW, with crew operations and lots of ATC experience.

I'm hearing that it may be that I need to get to 50 multi to even be looked at. I'm working on that.

You are competitive for a regional job. A major airline is going to want to see 500 to 1000 hours of turbine time preferably as PIC.

 

[Larry in TN]

.mil and corporate both generate TPIC time. Let’s talk about the majority of the career switchers though. Forties to mid-fifties, 1000-1500 hrs in single engine piston and 50hrs in a piston twin. Maybe a smattering of CFI work or some entry-level commercial work doing aerial survey or similar in a piston single.

The 1000 hours of 121 time is required to be a Captain in 121 operations. Regionals are paying big bonuses for qualified direct entry Captains. They don't have enough F/Os with 1000 121 time to upgrade.

Majors hire pilots without 1000 hours of 121 time, mainly from the military and higher-time corporate, who do have a lot of turbine time, though not necessarily PIC. The TPIC requirements have been dropped. Helps when you have lower overall experience but not as much when you have more experience.

Someone with ATP(r) minimums would need to spend some time at a 121 operation first. At the moment, the regionals need to catch up on Captains before they can hire more F/Os.

From my non-aviation experience, the way around AI is 1) Network - Get to know someone in HR/recruiting to give your resume to; 2) find a recent hire, use their resume as a template (formatting, key words, etc).

When an airline is hiring 60 to 70 pilots per week, the pilot recruiting office doesn't have time for walk in resumes or getting to know a potential applicant. Everyone goes through the same process.

 

[Kritchlow]

In short… yes, hiring *may* be on the downside of the curve.

 

[35 AoA]

6500TT
Over 3000 complex
1100 Tailwheel
2400 Dual given
1 checkride fail - was CFI initial.
28 multi
10 years managing my aerial photography crew - 8 of which here in DFW, with crew operations and lots of ATC experience.

I'm hearing that it may be that I need to get to 50 multi to even be looked at. I'm working on that.

My shop seems to care mostly about TMPIC. It's about the only thing they ask for on the app, other than I *think* TT. Circling back to the B-52 story, those heavy/multi-piloted airframes aren't really good for making TMPIC hours in a career of a junior fella just getting off active duty at his/her first opportunity. Might have spent 70% of his hours in the right seat, even if he spent a couple years as a WIC grad/IP....I don't really know, but it seems possible. Similar situation to you having 28 hrs of multi time. Certainly not show stoppers in the last 5 yrs of hiring, but maybe a tie breaker over and over during times where more historical norms have started to return in some places. Nobody cares about complex. I wouldn't even mention it on a resume. Any professional aviator has mostly that. Like you mentioned, I'd focus on the ME time piece. Personally, I don't see how it matters, but it is apparently a thing

 

[Groundpounder]

6500TT
Over 3000 complex
1100 Tailwheel
2400 Dual given
1 checkride fail - was CFI initial.
28 multi
10 years managing my aerial photography crew - 8 of which here in DFW, with crew operations and lots of ATC experience.

I'm hearing that it may be that I need to get to 50 multi to even be looked at. I'm working on that.

Any turbine time? Do you have your ATP?

 

[Jeff767]

Unless you fit a minority hiring bucket the major airlines are not going to pull your app without 500 hours of PIC turbine.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Have you considered night freight?

You’re obviously highly experienced and capable but your experience is not all that relevant to the airlines.

The life experience of being an adult and working carries a lot of weight but at the end of the day it doesn’t make up for relevant experience. With the type of time you have you are only slightly more competitive than a CFI with R-ATP mins.

I also agree that you are, most likely, not getting by the electronic gateway for a recruiter to even see your application.

As an example I have been back at the airlines for six years and just now have reached parity on my airline v.s. other more fun flying. When I came back in 2018 I had 1800 hours of 121 SIC. My interview was basically “which class date do you want.” They gave zero ****s about the 4000 hours of other experience in my log book. I even brought it up and was shut down with a direct “we don’t need any information about that” with an immediate segue to “will you be willing to upgrade at first opportunity.”

As far as any airline is concerned you’re just another guy that needs 1000 hours to upgrade. It will take effort to get hired.

From reading your posts it sounds like all you have done is apply. If that’s the case I would recommend working on getting more relevant experience and goto every recruiting event you can find. Wait in the lines and get some face time with the recruiters.

Also you were not explicit in where you have applied so I’ll add, just for clarity, it is highly unlikely you will get a job at mainline. If you want 121 it will be LCC or regional.

Welcome to the pile of **** that is HR hiring pilots.

Man, that is one depressing overview of industry hiring.
Every industry has to do that I guess, assess the candidates total skills and offerings by a handful of comparable, most relevant metrics.
But it just seems misinformed for a recruiter to look at a candidate with 6500h and a demonstrated career in aviation across several aircraft types/missions and put them on near-equal footing with someone just crossing the 1500h line from the CFI track. Ditto for your 4000h of extra logbook time that they "don't need any information about".

Then again I ain't a pro pilot or running an airline biz, so perhaps this is just an ignorant opinion

 

[Groundpounder]

Man, that is one depressing overview of industry hiring.
Every industry has to do that I guess, assess the candidates total skills and offerings by a handful of comparable, most relevant metrics.
But it just seems misinformed for a recruiter to look at a candidate with 6500h and a demonstrated career in aviation across several aircraft types/missions and put them on near-equal footing with someone just crossing the 1500h line from the CFI track. Ditto for you r4000h of extra logbook time that they "don't need any information about".

Then again I ain't a pro pilot or running an airline biz, so perhaps this is just my ignorant opinion

Throw a rock and you can hit 200 applicants that have the experience to be a regional/ULCC/LCC F/O. The problem is those airlines needs captains, and you need 1000 hours of 121 time in order to be a captain. And you need captains to fly airplanes that require F/O's. It is a vicious circle.

 

[RyanShort1]

It is what it is. I’m just trying to find the extra multi that I need. Two of the multi planes I’ve been flying have been down for maintenance and I’ve got a full-time job and kids to work around.

 

[TCABM]

It is what it is. I’m just trying to find the extra multi that I need. Two of the multi planes I’ve been flying have been down for maintenance and I’ve got a full-time job and kids to work around.

There’s a reliable and fairly inexpensive twinkie at Bulverde if you still come down this way. Anderson Aviation; $265/hr.

 

[danhagan]

I feel like 1000 hours of Mooney time is about equivalent of part 121 time but the airlines disagree with me

It's because of that crazy airplane tail on backwards ....

I have over 1000 hours and a ton of Tiger and RV time. I have to avoid the internet as huge corporate jet companies keep wanting to hire me site unseen for $500k a year to fly spoiled celebrities to their concerts


.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Man, that is one depressing overview of industry hiring.
Every industry has to do that I guess, assess the candidates total skills and offerings by a handful of comparable, most relevant metrics.
But it just seems misinformed for a recruiter to look at a candidate with 6500h and a demonstrated career in aviation across several aircraft types/missions and put them on near-equal footing with someone just crossing the 1500h line from the CFI track. Ditto for your 4000h of extra logbook time that they "don't need any information about".

Then again I ain't a pro pilot or running an airline biz, so perhaps this is just an ignorant opinion

We are all just sharing opinions. Most of what I’m talking about is driven by the need for captains at the regionals. They have fo applicants out the ears.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Everyone has a different definition of a good job. Commuting to reserve for years doesn't always lead to fulfillment for some people. It's nice to have choices.

You specifically cited living in base in the post I quoted. Now you change it to commuting. Two very different scenarios.

Can we keep the goal posts stationary please and for the love of god turn on your sarcasm detector.

 

[Groundpounder]

You specifically cited living in base in the post I quoted. Now you change it to commuting. Two very different scenarios.

Can we keep the goal posts stationary please and for the love of god turn on your sarcasm detector.

OK.

 

[TDunnies]

Do you know if the airlines value military time more? I’m kind of in an awkward spot. I received non flying orders for the rest of my time in so I’ll be sitting at 1,000 hrs total time. All in turbine aircraft, approximately 750 were in a huge twin engine turboprop. Just starting the process of getting hired at a regional possibly R-ATP. Any advice??

 

[Jeff767]

They love military training and time. Get on with a regional and knock out another 1000 and you should be in good shape. Be aware however that at the majors they fully understand mil time. They might question 1000 hours without becoming a AC for example.

 

[unsafervguy]

It's because of that crazy airplane tail on backwards ....

I have over 1000 hours and a ton of Tiger and RV time. I have to avoid the internet as huge corporate jet companies keep wanting to hire me site unseen for $500k a year to fly spoiled celebrities to their concerts


.

the problem is your RV has the third wheel on the wrong end

 

[ahmad]

2nd hand quote:
"I interviewed at Atlas in 2013. During the interview I was asked how am I any better than the others. While being humble I explained that I graduated a military pilot training program and that I had really good hands. The Human Resources guy told me that didn’t matter, they would teach me how to turn the autopilot on."

hahahah. Thats hilarious.

Well, I am better than anyone out there because I have been putting tons of IFR and IMC hours in my little C150 without the A/P. I am not just a button pusher. I can fly.

 

[RussR]

Do you know if the airlines value military time more? I’m kind of in an awkward spot. I received non flying orders for the rest of my time in so I’ll be sitting at 1,000 hrs total time. All in turbine aircraft, approximately 750 were in a huge twin engine turboprop. Just starting the process of getting hired at a regional possibly R-ATP. Any advice??

They love military training and time. Get on with a regional and knock out another 1000 and you should be in good shape. Be aware however that at the majors they fully understand mil time. They might question 1000 hours without becoming a AC for example.

@TDunnies didn't say anything about not being an AC, where did you get that from?

 

[Groundpounder]

Do you know if the airlines value military time more? I’m kind of in an awkward spot. I received non flying orders for the rest of my time in so I’ll be sitting at 1,000 hrs total time. All in turbine aircraft, approximately 750 were in a huge twin engine turboprop. Just starting the process of getting hired at a regional possibly R-ATP. Any advice??

Get whatever version of the ATP you can, and apply everywhere, including the fractionals like NetJets.