Airline Disengenuousness

kayoh190 said:
Now that you mention it, they ARE planning to retrofit many of the older NGs into the newer interior style of the MAX - I just didn't think they started actually doing it yet. Let me do a little more digging and see what I find...
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All of them. Except the ones they will retire. The cello probably wouldn't even fit into the law on a Max.
 
wsuffa said:
All of them. Except the ones they will retire. The cello probably wouldn't even fit into the law on a Max.
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Have they started yet? Do you know if they're starting at the old end of the fleet, like they are with the satellite wifi? Doesn't seem like they're retiring airplanes on the schedule they said they would.

Regardless, the bird in question was 3KF, or N920NN. It has not been converted - still shows the 16/144 configuration.
 
spiderweb said:
It simply doesn’t work that way. Musicians have traveled with their instruments in purchased seats for decades. Many string instruments are hundreds of years old, and some are in the millions of dollars. There is NO other way to tour, if the concerts are more than a few hundred miles apart.

Unlike a trout or human remains, cellos don’t decay, rot, and stink. Hell, they don’t even cry like infants or complain about lack of WiFi, like human passengers do.
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May be its because I am not a musician, but I don't get why this exception is being made to musical instruments. If I had something that was a few million dollars worth, I would not be lugging it through airport xray machines and crowded terminals. Shipping it via a secured container makes the most sense to me, and I don't mean UPS or Fedex.
 
sarangan said:
May be its because I am not a musician, but I don't get why this exception is being made to musical instruments. If I had something that was a few million dollars worth, I would not be lugging it through airport xray machines and crowded terminals. Shipping it via a secured container makes the most sense to me, and I don't mean UPS or Fedex.
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The salient point is that it is not an "exception,” it is the rule.

Again, the reason it was news was because of American's treatment of the passenger--not because the passenger was traveling with a cello in a paid-for seat, which is a common occurrence.

As to shipping, No one--and I mean no one--ships a hand-made $30,000 cello (relatively inexpensive for most professionals) by container to a rehearsal or concert.

Imagine, BTW, what the shipping insurance would be on a $4 or $5 million instrument.
 
Fearless Tower said:
But did you pay for a separate seat for your guitar?
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I asked about that (the plane was only about 80% full) but they didn't want it in the seat at all (though I would have it on the floor leaning back on the seat, most likely). It was something I picked up on vacation, so I didn't start my trip with the thing! But it ended up costing me nothing extra, though it was out of my sight.
 
As a former AA employee (ac maint) that still knows numerous people working there, the general feeling among employees is AA sucks.
 
spiderweb said:
The salient point is that it is not an "exception,” it is the rule.

Again, the reason it was news was because of American's treatment of the passenger--not because the passenger was traveling with a cello in a paid-for seat, which is a common occurrence.

As to shipping, No one--and I mean no one--ships a hand-made $30,000 cello (relatively inexpensive for most professionals) by container to a rehearsal or concert.

Imagine, BTW, what the shipping insurance would be on a $4 or $5 million instrument.
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Learned something new. I had no idea DOT had a special rule for musical instruments. Here is the reference.
 
kayoh190 said:
Have they started yet? Do you know if they're starting at the old end of the fleet, like they are with the satellite wifi? Doesn't seem like they're retiring airplanes on the schedule they said they would.

Regardless, the bird in question was 3KF, or N920NN. It has not been converted - still shows the 16/144 configuration.
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And even if it wasn’t, it is up to the company to fix their problem and accommodate the customer. Even though they put them up overnight, that delay is on acceptable
kayoh190 said:
Have they started yet? Do you know if they're starting at the old end of the fleet, like they are with the satellite wifi? Doesn't seem like they're retiring airplanes on the schedule they said they would.

Regardless, the bird in question was 3KF, or N920NN. It has not been converted - still shows the 16/144 configuration.
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Yes, and even then, the point is that there needs to be 1) clear communication of the company's policy, for ALL staff, to avoid embarrassing amateur-hour shows like this one, and 2) more of a customer-centered approach. Putting a performer on a flight the next day is not acceptable.
 
Paulie said:
As a former AA employee (ac maint) that still knows numerous people working there, the general feeling among employees is AA sucks.
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I have an ex sister-in-law that worked at Ozark, then TWA, and now American. Those are definitely her sentiments.

but I also know people who work for numerous other Airlines, and those sentiments seem to be the rule and not the exception...across the board.

I'm just very happy I'm no longer a road warrior flying commercially every other week at minimum.
 
sarangan said:
Learned something new. I had no idea DOT had a special rule for musical instruments. Here is the reference.
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And from that, this part says it all: "The stakeholders recognized that, while most airlines’ current policies regarding musical instruments are consistent with
the statute, frontline customer service agents and flight crew may not always be well-versed in those policies. . . ." [emphasis mine]

That right there's the problem.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Of course leave it to the high-strung arm chair pilots on here to think they know everything about airline operations.

.
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Oh that's just the 'Dog blowing it outa his arse again. 121 mechanic, so there's that. ;):)
 
spiderweb said:
And even if it wasn’t, it is up to the company to fix their problem and accommodate the customer. Even though they put them up overnight, that delay is on acceptable

Yes, and even then, the point is that there needs to be 1) clear communication of the company's policy, for ALL staff, to avoid embarrassing amateur-hour shows like this one, and 2) more of a customer-centered approach. Putting a performer on a flight the next day is not acceptable.
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I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I'm just trying to figure out the full story and get better educated myself - already @Sluggo63 pointed out a part of the policy that I didn't know. Contrary to the AA bashing (or UA bashing when it's their turn, or SWA, or Delta, etc), the majority of employees want to see things done right and see the passengers have a good experience. You guys are how I pay my rent. I fly musical instruments all the time, and I'll be better prepared if an issue arises.
 
timwinters said:
but I also know people who work for numerous other Airlines, and those sentiments seem to be the rule and not the exception...across the board.
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We love to *****. It's in our DNA. My most militant friend is at Delta - we both got hired at our respective airlines at the same time, and he's ready to burn the place to the ground. To Delta's credit it's part of his personality - he'd be like that anywhere. But it's fun to set him off.

Some of the issue is change - we're terrible at it, and think anything new is instantly worse than what we had before. So any merger will cause stress because of all the change. One of my unhappy SWA buddies was former AirTran, and he's miserable. I keep pointing out all the ways his life is a million times better than it was before (like the pay!) but he refuses to hear it - it's different and therefore terrible.
 
kayoh190 said:
I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I'm just trying to figure out the full story and get better educated myself - already @Sluggo63 pointed out a part of the policy that I didn't know. Contrary to the AA bashing (or UA bashing when it's their turn, or SWA, or Delta, etc), the majority of employees want to see things done right and see the passengers have a good experience. You guys are how I pay my rent. I fly musical instruments all the time, and I'll be better prepared if an issue arises.
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The main problem is that the general public--even otherwise well-educated persons--know very little about instruments, especially classical instruments. I even know a cellist who puts his $700,000 cello in an overhead compartment (incredibly stupid), and gets away with it because he calls it a balalaika, which is not specifically listed in most companies' policies.

We have to start from square one, for almost every single flight, and it is just frustrating, and anxiety-inducing.

You know how frustrating it is to us pilots when news reporters think they are being helpful when they point out that "no flight plan was filed" as part of a flight which had an accident or incident? Imagine if that type of ignorance meant you could lose your job forever, AND that you had to deal with that very type of ignorance as a major part of your job. It turns the already anxiety-inducing air travel experience "up to 11."
 
spiderweb said:
We have to start from square one, for almost every single flight, and it is just frustrating, and anxiety-inducing.

You know how frustrating it is to us pilots when news reporters think they are being helpful when they point out that "no flight plan was filed" as part of a flight which had an accident or incident? Imagine if that type of ignorance meant you could lose your job forever, AND that you had to deal with that very type of ignorance as a major part of your job. It turns the already anxiety-inducing air travel experience "up to 11."
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I hear ya'. That'd be incredibly frustrating.
 
wsuffa said:
And then there's this. Airlines have become the Trailways bus of the sky.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/08/0...american-airlines-plane-in-new-york-city.html
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So you’re saying now is not a good time to post this old joke? :)

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Back to the cello story...

Rumor elsewhere is the cello case hit the Captain (I guess in the leg?) on the way out and he claimed an “injury” and was “bleeding” from it and muttered something about that being why they needed to get the musician off the plane.

Nobody saw said injury.

This would be just prior to his “Victory” or “Peace” sign flash where he’s smiling. I guess he pushed through the pain. Hahaha.

Quite entertaining, if true, but we’ll never hear the whole story for sure. Sounds like multiple adults acting like children, mostly with a touch of Lord of the Flies. :)
 
mscard88 said:
Oh that's just the 'Dog blowing it outa his arse again. 121 mechanic, so there's that. ;):)
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Yeah. Sorry. Just a 121 line mechanic. And hangar mechanic. Flight mechanic. Heavy check supervisor. And mx controller spending a couple of years in the MOC/SOC. Also tossed bags. Did pushbacks. Flew jumpseat numerous times. And of course armchair piloting. The latter is what I’m most proud of and is obviously what really makes me an expert.
 
denverpilot said:
Back to the cello story...

Rumor elsewhere is the cello case hit the Captain (I guess in the leg?) on the way out and he claimed an “injury” and was “bleeding” from it and muttered something about that being why they needed to get the musician off the plane.

Nobody saw said injury.

This would be just prior to his “Victory” or “Peace” sign flash where he’s smiling. I guess he pushed through the pain. Hahaha.

Quite entertaining, if true, but we’ll never hear the whole story for sure. Sounds like multiple adults acting like children, mostly with a touch of Lord of the Flies. :)
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I call BS on this.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Yeah. Sorry. Just a 121 line mechanic. And hangar mechanic. Flight mechanic. Heavy check supervisor. And mx controller spending a couple of years in the MOC/SOC. Also tossed bags. Did pushbacks. Flew jumpseat numerous times. And of course armchair piloting. The latter is what I’m most proud of and is obviously what really makes me an expert.
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Easy 'Dog, ya put yourself out there. ;)
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I call BS on this.
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It’s from someone claiming to be a co-worker. Take it FWIW. Company scuttlebutt. Doesn’t sound like anybody is happy at AA right now with the FA changes going on.

The one person I know at AA is a trainer on the FA scheduling system and she was pulled out of the office and put back into a uniform to go directly to the airport and be the smiling face of “assistance” for all the ticked off FAs right now, in person. Flew her somewhere else other than home to do it too. Full court press on the corporate happiness and helpfulness system over there right now.

Ahhh. The ability of computer design people to completely **** off ten thousand people simultaneously with bad code written “to business rule spec”.

Can ruin multiple lives in a mouse click and a little typing. You gotta love IT sometimes. :)

I always knew a new major software product was crap when the managers started assembling teams of people to go around and talk to everyone about how wonderful it was and started a massive push to get those “ambassadors” ready.

Last time I saw that was the roll out of Siebel in a large multi-national. That thing was a multi-million dollar POS and we had to keep the old ticketing system for five years just to look up customer’s contact info to call them back. LOL.

Pro tip: If you ever deal with a company and they give you a ticket number starting with a single digit like 1- or 2- and then six or seven digits?

That’s default Siebel as deployed by most consultants making well into six figures to do it, and the person on the other end of the phone is working with one of the most God awful user interfaces for a ticketing system ever created by mankind. Feel a little sorry for them. If the ticket number is high, the consultants left years ago and the thing will never get any better without spending another million on it.
 
timwinters said:
I have an ex sister-in-law that worked at Ozark, then TWA, and now American. Those are definitely her sentiments.

but I also know people who work for numerous other Airlines, and those sentiments seem to be the rule and not the exception...across the board.

I'm just very happy I'm no longer a road warrior flying commercially every other week at minimum.
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The airlines ain’t what they used to be. My first job was with Braniff, it was like a big family. AA was like being a cog in a uncaring cold machine run by bean counters that couldn’t care less about aviation, to them it’s just another business.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I just hired on with an airline. I have more experience than a couple of the LCA’s I’ve flown with on IOE. Sure would be nice if I was getting paid a little better than I am considering I have 19 years experience as a professional pilot. But that’s not how it works because union and primarily because each company has its own separate union with no consideration of prior experience for pay.

What’s so hard to understand?
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Most airlines are ALPA. AA has it’s own union. It’s called a seniority list, get used to it. Your prior experience got you hired, you don’t get to jump the line because you think you’re special.
 
Wh
SkyDog58 said:
Yeah. Sorry. Just a 121 line mechanic. And hangar mechanic. Flight mechanic. Heavy check supervisor. And mx controller spending a couple of years in the MOC/SOC. Also tossed bags. Did pushbacks. Flew jumpseat numerous times. And of course armchair piloting. The latter is what I’m most proud of and is obviously what really makes me an expert.
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Where?
 
Paulie said:
Most airlines are ALPA. AA has it’s own union. It’s called a seniority list, get used to it. Your prior experience got you hired, you don’t get to jump the line because you think you’re special.
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He never asked to.

His point was in multiple ALPA companies, ALPA could make the line cover all of them, not just one, if they wanted to add real value to being a member.

That’ll never happen though. They do not have the power they think they do. They don’t make much ground in negotiations, they mostly play a defensive ground holding strategy, for better or worse. It is what it is.
 
denverpilot said:
Ahhh. The ability of computer design people to completely **** off ten thousand people simultaneously with bad code written “to business rule spec”.
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@wsuffa seems dialed into the FA side so maybe he knows, but isn't the software being rolled out to the FAs the same as what the pilots have been using? The FAs seem to think so since they always seem to be asking us questions about it, but I don't want to mouth off before I know for sure. :)

The pilot side PBS, at least from a tech and usability standpoint, is actually pretty solid. I personally think the developers did just fine. Now PBS vs. line bidding and everything else is a different discussion, but now that I've got a pretty good grasp of how it all works, I'm pretty happy. And I certainly wouldn't go back to bidding a line.
 
kayoh190 said:
@wsuffa seems dialed into the FA side so maybe he knows, but isn't the software being rolled out to the FAs the same as what the pilots have been using? The FAs seem to think so since they always seem to be asking us questions about it, but I don't want to mouth off before I know for sure. :)

The pilot side PBS, at least from a tech and usability standpoint, is actually pretty solid. I personally think the developers did just fine. Now PBS vs. line bidding and everything else is a different discussion, but now that I've got a pretty good grasp of how it all works, I'm pretty happy. And I certainly wouldn't go back to bidding a line.
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Yeah I dunno, I’d have to ask the FA trainer friend what everyone is so riled up about.

And I don’t think I’m actually up for that phone call.

Ever.

I really don’t think I want to know, if you know what I mean. LOL.

I’m kinda ... not into that sort of drama. :)
 
denverpilot said:
That’ll never happen though. They do not have the power they think they do. They don’t make much ground in negotiations, they mostly play a defensive ground holding strategy, for better or worse. It is what it is.
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I don't think the companies would care - as long as it's cost neutral they couldn't give a crap where the pilots come from. Jets staffed for x cost - that's all they care about. It's getting the pilots to come to some sort of seniority agreement that would be impossible. Virgin American and Alaska is about to get stupid ugly - and that's merely two smaller airlines that both fly domestic narrowbodies. Can you imagine getting everyone across the entire industry to agree to one list? Heh!
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I just hired on with an airline. I have more experience than a couple of the LCA’s I’ve flown with on IOE. Sure would be nice if I was getting paid a little better than I am considering I have 19 years experience as a professional pilot. But that’s not how it works because union and primarily because each company has its own separate union with no consideration of prior experience for pay.

What’s so hard to understand?
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I understand it in theory but I want to know specifically how it would work in practice. Frankly, I don't see how it can work in practice.
 
denverpilot said:
I’m kinda ... not into that sort of drama. :)
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LOL! It's a tough situation - we all HATE change, and switching to PBS was a monumental change to one of the most fundamental parts of our lives at the airline. So you can imagine how it went down. The software is not trivial - it has to be at least somewhat complex to give us the flexibility we'd want in choosing our schedules. Those that were more technologically oriented had a better time with it than those that, ummm, weren't. And we had plenty of those:

star_trek_4_apple_mac_plus1.jpg


I imagine it'll be even worse for the FA's. But again I don't know their specific software. :)
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I understand it in theory but I want to know specifically how it would work in practice. Frankly, I don't see how it can work in practice.
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With training costs and fleet equipment differences, it wouldn’t.

As someone else said, the airlines wouldn’t care if it was cost neutral, but jumping equipment and companies all the time wouldn’t be anywhere near cost neutral.

It’ll never ever happen.

It essentially does happen at every merger though. The shenanigans over who’s getting what seniority numbers in mergers and then the lockouts for certain equipment for a while to not throw training departments completely off the rails, are always entertaining.

And then there’s the fun with mergers with identical equipment but different procedures and orders of operations between PF and PNF and which airline’s procedures survive and which ones die. Haha.

Multi airline seniority would be a disaster. But it would be fun to see ALPA or anybody else actually try it! From far far away.
 
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