Airline Disengenuousness

[spiderweb]

The thing that's frustrating is that professional cellists like me (and students, also) have been purchasing seats for and flying with cellos for decades. We know the drill, and we've duly paid for the ticket. Even though there are many flights everyday on airliners with our cellos, we still have to worry about a young FA wanting to feel sense of superiority and suddenly becoming an "expert;" and us possibly missing a concert or rehearsal--which is our livelihood.

This is one of the reasons I became a pilot. And as other musicians on this board will tell you, it can be a whole lot nicer flying yourself and your instrument.

 

[Zeldman]

He tried to be nice for about a minute. Then he switched over to military bark mode voice and laid into the moron. I could hear him from across the counter with the phone press to the agent’s ear.

I have had to deal with a few morons like that. Seems a few people just can't figure out that they are no longer in the military and fail to realize that the world does not operate like the military. I will either hang up, or walk away. If I have to speak to them again, I will remind them they are no longer in the military and I will not tolerate that attitude. Usual response is let me speak to your supervisor. At that point I will look them straight in the eye and quietly say I am my supervisor....

 

[kath]

<begin dumb cello questions>

a) Do double-bass players fly the same way? Or is that instrument too big? Tuba?
b) Cellos have that "spike" thingy at the bottom that sits on the floor... is that thing sharp enough that TSA gives you trouble about it? Is it removable?

</end>

 

[Larry in TN]

A cello can fly in its own seat if the passenger buys it a ticket but it must be able to be properly secured. Most seats on a particular airplane are the same size and have the same amount of room but not every single one. There are small differences due to the aircraft design and not every seat will accommodate a particular instrument or car seat (another allowed item that must be properly secured to its seat). Additionally, the cello must be in a hard case and not all cases are exactly the same. A particularly case may not fit in every seat on a particular aircraft even though another similar case does. The agent can't judge that at the podium.

If the case does not fit into the assigned seat, and it isn't discovered until well into boarding, there may not be a suitable seat into which it can be switched and/or other passengers are not willing to switch seats. Bottom line is that if the instrument can not be properly secured then it can not fly on that flight.

That's what I'm saying. Put me in charge and when someone books a seat...they pay for it and it's theirs...no refunds. No overbooking required and no overbooking allowed.

JetBlue doesn't overbook. They never have. Recently they had the highest rate of involuntary denied boardings (IDBs) even though they never overbook.

Selling more seats than are available on the aircraft is only one way that flights become oversold. In JetBlue's case, those oversold flights, and those IDB'd customers, came primarily from A321 flights that were down-gauged to A320s resulting in 50 fewer seats on the airplane. Jetblue had a much smaller A321 fleet, as compared to its A320 fleet, so when maintenance or delays resulted in them being short of A321s they sometimes had to substitute the smaller A320 so that the flight wouldn't be cancelled entirely.

Similarly, having multiple bookings is not the only thing that results in no-shows. Passenger's who are late to the airport, are on an inbound flight that is delayed, those who do a same-day-change/standby (free with status or for a fee without), or those who simply don't show up. There are almost always no-shows on a flight for any number of reasons.

Banning overbooking, though I wouldn't object if they did, won't eliminate oversold flights and the need to bump passengers.

 

[spiderweb]

Apparently this happened, just last year, with the same airline:

https://wjla.com/news/local/musician-forced-off-flight-due-to-risk-from-his-cello

 

[spiderweb]

A cello can fly in its own seat if the passenger buys it a ticket but it must be able to be properly secured. Most seats on a particular airplane are the same size and have the same amount of room but not every single one. There are small differences due to the aircraft design and not every seat will accommodate a particular instrument or car seat (another allowed item that must be properly secured to its seat). Additionally, the cello must be in a hard case and not all cases are exactly the same. A particularly case may not fit in every seat on a particular aircraft even though another similar case does. The agent can't judge that at the podium.

If the case does not fit into the assigned seat, and it isn't discovered until well into boarding, there may not be a suitable seat into which it can be switched and/or other passengers are not willing to switch seats. Bottom line is that if the instrument can not be properly secured then it can not fly on that flight.

All of this may be true, but so is this: For the past 40 years I have flown with my cello in its own, duly paid-for seat, on everything from a Beech 1900 up to the C747. My cello is based on Montagnas and require a slightly wider hard case, and I've never had a problem fitting it into its window seat--even when not behind a bulkhead.

The only good thing that's happened is that I've been "bumped" to first class a few times.

 

[spiderweb]

<begin dumb cello questions>

a) Do double-bass players fly the same way? Or is that instrument too big? Tuba?
b) Cellos have that "spike" thingy at the bottom that sits on the floor... is that thing sharp enough that TSA gives you trouble about it? Is it removable?

</end>

Double bass players have to check their instruments.

The cello endpin (called a spike, in the UK) is usually removable, and when requested, I remove it and check it. It is quite sharp and would make an excellent weapon.

 

[denverpilot]

I have had to deal with a few morons like that. Seems a few people just can't figure out that they are no longer in the military and fail to realize that the world does not operate like the military. I will either hang up, or walk away. If I have to speak to them again, I will remind them they are no longer in the military and I will not tolerate that attitude. Usual response is let me speak to your supervisor. At that point I will look them straight in the eye and quietly say I am my supervisor....

I think you’re missing that he was my boss and was chewing the rental car place for me. Ha.

They magically found a way to comply and provide a vehicle once their supervisor looked up how much rental car business we did with them. (And found the self-insurance documentation that said they could rent me a car below age 25...)

 

[wsuffa]

Let's just say that this incident comes right on the heels of a yet another miserable AA experience that I had this weekend. Some affected me personally and some were observations of certain cabin crew members treating passengers poorly. And it's culture. You can tell when some people are just unhappy in their jobs and pass on their bitterness to the people they interact with. It can be fixed. I just don't see anyone there trying to fix it.

After years of doing merger integrations and looking at corporate issues, it can't ALWAYS be fixed. With most folks, you can reach a point where they just don't care any more and anything that's done to try and improve things is met with ridicule and disbelief. At that point, you have to excise the cancer - whether the cancer be the management folks that implement the ****-poor policies, or the cancer be the malcontent employees. (We saw a case of that in sports last week when the Washington Nationals cut pitcher Shawn Kelly after he threw a tantrum on the mount. And a couple of years ago when they rid themselves of closing pitcher Jonathan Papelbon.).

With one company, we had a manager's meeting and the CEO announced that we were going to undergo "backbreaking change" and the we knew that some managers wouldn't make it because they couldn't change.

In the AA case, the new scheduling system is, apparently, a problem, the FA union has put out a letter to members about it, and some folks (management) are pointing out that the older, less-computer-agile employees are not taking the time to learn it. So there are crew shortages, reserve issues, and a general problem for the airline. That's part 1.

The second is that there are FAR more flight cancellations than before, many for maintenance (in addition to the aforementioned crew issues). Because cash-flow is down and the CEO stated that the "airline will never lose money again", it would be reasonable to ask whether the maintenance has been cutback. I don't know. But there is speculation.

The third is that the crews have gotten messages that management doesn't care about the concerns. From the FA standpoint, that started when the new FA uniforms caused issues & management did nothing. And it didn't help when the FAs complained about the new cabins on the 73Max and the CEO admitted that he'd never flown on one. But proceeded to defend it.

And then there's this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedree...-three-airline-a-top-analyst-says-it-has/amp/

Bottom line: this isn't your father's AA.

 

[denverpilot]

The bigger problem in aviation is lack of job portability. In any other business when you see the place is sinking and even the rats have gotten off, you start looking for a well run company to apply to.

Seniority based systems just mean you sink with the Titanic.

Incremental changes to respond to competition happen much faster in businesses that start losing employees to competitors.

 

[LoLPilot]

 

[wsuffa]

The bigger problem in aviation is lack of job portability. In any other business when you see the place is sinking and even the rats have gotten off, you start looking for a well run company to apply to.

Seniority based systems just mean you sink with the Titanic.

Incremental changes to respond to competition happen much faster in businesses that start losing employees to competitors.

Unions have advantages. And disadvantages.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Unions make it harder to fix

Depends on the issue. Do you really think the unions want their rank and file ****ing off the customers? We on the pilot side get training on how to avoid that.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

The bigger problem in aviation is lack of job portability. In any other business when you see the place is sinking and even the rats have gotten off, you start looking for a well run company to apply to.

Seniority based systems just mean you sink with the Titanic.

Nobody has adequately explained to me just how that works. Care to enlighten me, Nate?

 

[denverpilot]

Nobody has adequately explained to me just how that works. Care to enlighten me, Nate?

If your carrier were going down in quality dramatically, would you stay for the pay, or start over at the bottom of another carrier’s seniority list?

I wouldn’t start at another IT company as a Jr Desktop Support admin, if I left here. I’d be offered a senior paid position for experience.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

If your carrier were going down in quality dramatically, would you stay for the pay, or start over at the bottom of another carrier’s seniority list?

I wouldn’t start at another IT company as a Jr Desktop Support admin, if I left here. I’d be offered a senior paid position for experience.

You are dodging the question Nate. Again, how would your way of doing it work in the airline industry. Be specific.

 

[timwinters]

I remember watching Larry, Curly and Moe ride down a hill on a cello....

And they went on to have successful careers as United baggage handlers.

 

[sarangan]

Hotel room and dinner doesn't put me where I paid to be....home.

I've never understood the whole overbooking problem. An airline shouldn't be allowed to sell a seat to more than one person. And someone who buys a ticket shouldn't be allowed to cancel last-minute and say they'll use it another time.

Most of the time I fly commercially it's taking the family on vacation. Probably 1/3 of the time there's an overbooking problem. And several times we've been forced to later flights because of it. The problem is that the time at our vacation spot is shortened by a day (3 days once). Never mind the fact that we're out the cost of the pre-paid hotel...just losing your vacation for no good reason is frustrating.

If I was king for a day that kind of thing would stop.

A musician and her $30,000 cello were removed from the return leg of a round trip AA flight because her cello was ostensibly too big for the seat she had purchased for it. The cello apparently grew between the outbound and return flights, because no mention was made of the offending instrument on the outbound leg.

AA's explanation is pretty weak:

“A passenger on flight 2457 from Miami to Chicago was traveling with her cello. Unfortunately, there was a miscommunication about whether the cello she was traveling with met the requirements to fit onboard the particular aircraft she was flying, a Boeing 737.

We rebooked our passenger on a flight the next morning on a larger aircraft, a Boeing 767. We provided her a hotel and meal accommodations for the inconvenience. We apologize for the misunderstanding and customer relations has reached out to her.”

I'm not an expert on this, but I'm pretty sure the seat width, seat pitch, and aisle width on AA 737s and 767s are identical. If they differ, it's not by more than an inch or two. American needs a better PR Prevaricator.

A person traveling with the musician that stayed on the full flight noted after she and the cello were removed, the two seats were taken by two apparently overbooked passengers.

http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2018/...ht-after-buying-seat-for-her-30000-cello.html

Though I don't normally side with airlines, I think it is perfectly reasonable for the airline to insist that seats are for live humans only. Everything else need to be checked in as luggage, or shipped through other means. Just because you paid for a seat doesn't mean you can put whatever you want on it. What if a person reserves a seat for the trout they caught during a fishing trip, or human remains?

 

[timwinters]

Oh, and the media will most definitely massage the facts to suit their agenda.

Says everyone who doesn't like the facts being presented in the story.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Says everyone who doesn't like the facts being presented in the story.

Do you trust everything you hear on news reports? Anything?

 

[Shepherd]

You would have...what?...three bucks?

Kidding aside, if I were in charge, that individual would be fired, or punished to the maximum extent allowed by union contract. There is no room for that kind of crap, no matter who you are.

It happens a lot.

 

[timwinters]

Do you trust everything you hear on news reports?

No, but that's not the point here, now is it?

I trust much of what I hear because I don't listen to cable news. "Cable news" has been an oxymoron since day one. Those who believe Fox (or MSNBC at the other extreme) are Neanderthals. And, yeah, I know, this was Fox News article but they would be one of the last ones I'd suspect as falsely sabotaging anything corporate America.

 

[denverpilot]

You are dodging the question Nate. Again, how would your way of doing it work in the airline industry. Be specific.

Not my job, man. It was just an observation that it really kills normal motivations for businesses to do better when the employee base is pretty much stuck with them.

Mostly the Unions would have to figure it out.

If one of them figured out how to have cross company seniority they might actually be worth their dues.

But they don’t have the teeth they once did. Well, if they ever did. So they’d have to fix that first.

Largest pilot shortage in decades and their contact renewal timing for most of them is poor to try to leverage anything anywhere.

We’re back into another round of major worker shortages in IT. Pay rises significantly during these. Especially at the bad places to work for.

It’s completely backward than aviation. If the company is bad they have to pay more to retain people and try to fix their problems. If they don’t it accelerates their death. Very motivational.

If the company is good they can lag behind the bad ones for a while on pay bumps until their good competitors start courting staff away.

 

[denverpilot]

They are counting on some passengers not showing up.


Though I don't normally side with airlines, I think it is perfectly reasonable for the airline to insist that seats are for live humans only. Everything else need to be checked in as luggage, or shipped through other means. Just because you paid for a seat doesn't mean you can put whatever you want on it. What if a person reserves a seat for the trout they caught during a fishing trip, or human remains?

They already have rules about what can ride in a seat and what can’t. Well-published on their websites.

 

[SkyDog58]

Someone on the crew, or someone on the ground staff had the cellist and her instrument tossed because they had a couple of friends\family who wanted the seats.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I've seen it happen.

You are right Shep, it does happen. Gate agents are some of the biggest liars in aviation. They lie about the reasons for delays, cancellations, etc. And yes, they lie and cheat to get friends and family on board. For instance, this is what happened to me many years ago. My wife and I were returning to Indy from Las Vegas on the airline I worked for. We were flying Space A. The flight was pretty full and there were several employees besides the two of us who were trying to get on board including some with less seniority than me. Finally, my name was called and I went up to the counter. The agent said that there was only one seat left in the cabin but since I was maintenance that they could let me ride in the cockpit and my wife could have the final seat. As that supposedly was the only way we could get on board, I said ok. So we boarded, the wife went to her seat and I was standing just inside the open cockpit door talking to the crew. A couple of minutes later, another couple that had also been waiting to get a seat boarded. These were two other employees who I knew were junior to me and who were rather chatty with the gate agent during the whole standby process. They both got seats in the cabin. WTF! Obviously I was lied to and there was not just the seat my wife got when it was our turn. There was obviously two additional seats so I could have rode in the back which by my seniority I was entitled to do. But, my job also entitled me to ride jump seat if I wanted to whereas the other two could not do so. But rather than giving me the option of taking a seat in the cabin that I was entitled to or volunteering to ride in the cockpit so that a fellow employee could fly, I was lied to. I have flown jump seat countless times and it is not that big of a thrill especially after a long weekend in Vegas. I would have preferred to ride in the back though if asked nicely I would probably have given up my cabin seat for a fellow employee. I should have been asked. I should have been given the opportunity but I wasn't. I was lied to. So anyone who thinks that sort of lying and deception by gate agents, flight attendants, etc. does not happen, just doesn't know what they are talking about or is frequently a beneficiary of this crap and doesn't want to admit it. It's a rigged game.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

You are right Shep, it does happen. Gate agents are some of the biggest liars in aviation. They lie about the reasons for delays, cancellations, etc. And yes, they lie and cheat to get friends and family on board. For instance, this is what happened to me many years ago.

That was then, this is now. At least at my place, date of hire is indicated on the SA listing. It is MUCH harder for the agents to bypass seniority like that. Not saying it can’t be done, but the scenario you were involved in is almost nonexistent today.

The issue I have now is that we have “vacation passes” that are a higher priority than regular passes. They sometimes are used to “jump” seniority. But other than that, it is pretty straight forward.

 

[spiderweb]

Though I don't normally side with airlines, I think it is perfectly reasonable for the airline to insist that seats are for live humans only. Everything else need to be checked in as luggage, or shipped through other means. Just because you paid for a seat doesn't mean you can put whatever you want on it. What if a person reserves a seat for the trout they caught during a fishing trip, or human remains?

It simply doesn’t work that way. Musicians have traveled with their instruments in purchased seats for decades. Many string instruments are hundreds of years old, and some are in the millions of dollars. There is NO other way to tour, if the concerts are more than a few hundred miles apart.

Unlike a trout or human remains, cellos don’t decay, rot, and stink. Hell, they don’t even cry like infants or complain about lack of WiFi, like human passengers do.

 

[spiderweb]

They already have rules about what can ride in a seat and what can’t. Well-published on their websites.

And, unfortunately, sometimes ignored lol

 

[LoLPilot]

Though I don't normally side with airlines, I think it is perfectly reasonable for the airline to insist that seats are for live humans only. Everything else need to be checked in as luggage, or shipped through other means. Just because you paid for a seat doesn't mean you can put whatever you want on it. What if a person reserves a seat for the trout they caught during a fishing trip, or human remains?

As long as whatever is there is transported in such a way so as not to cause discomfort or danger to other passengers, as long as a passenger is willing to pay for the ticket they should be able to put whatever they want there. If someone bought ever seat on a 747 for their own transatlantic flight, shouldn't they be able to do that? As far as human remains, consider an urn. There is no way I would check that. I had the TSA once empty protein powder out of my checked luggage (they even put the scoop back in the container). There's no way I'd risk that happening to a relative's remains in an urn. Same thing with an instrument. After seeing how checked baggage is often handled, if I had to travel with one of my guitars it is traveling in the cabin.

 

[denverpilot]

There is NO other way to tour, if the concerts are more than a few hundred miles apart.

I can’t think of more than a handful of rock bands that fly everything to their venues. Unless a musician is crossing an ocean, there’s always ground transport for touring.

Not saying they necessarily would LIKE it, but let’s not say “NO” too emphatically here.

MOST paid musicians on tour, travel in a tour bus and tow a trailer with their gear.

And, unfortunately, sometimes ignored lol

In this case the cellist read the rules and abided by them.

The real missing information in the airline websites is a list of aircraft that can NOT handle large passenger seat items.

Doesn’t apply in this case, and our own RJ pilot has seen cellos in his seats before, so I don’t know what the size limit has to physically be, but THAT information is difficult to find.

Even an aircraft equipment change could trigger a text to someone traveling with a large item as a seat rider if the booking computer can have one more binary database field added to a ticket “this is not a human”. The system already knows about the equipment change.

“Your carry on large item booked in seat XX may not fit aboard this aircraft. Please see the gate agent for details.”

Imagine. Add a little code and treat musicians really well like that and they flock to you instead of your competitors.

It’s not like someone has to be brilliant to come up with that idea.

Now if your code shares can’t handle that single additional bit of storage on the database row for the ticket, you do have a problem there. You’d have to tell them to get with the program. Literally.

Adding the sizes of aircraft that can’t handle certain items is super low hanging fruit, though. That could have been started the day after the incident. Put a ticket into the website IT tracker, “Add aircraft equipment limitations details for large seat rider items to main website”.

Might take IT a month to get around to it, but it’d be there in time for the next dumb cello or guitar or whatever event.

“Items larger than X by Y will not be able to ride in a seat on the following aircraft types...”

 

[Lndwarrior]

You seem to be willfully ignoring the obvious point of my claim AA is being disingenuous. I have gathered information which does indeed make me an "expert".

AA Boeing 737-800
Main Cabin: Pitch 31, Width 16.9 - 17.3

AA Boeing 767-300
Main Cabin: Pitch 31-32, Width 17.8

AA's claim they accommodated the unlucky passenger and her cello on a "larger aircraft", which clearly infers larger with regard to space for the instrument, was simply for PR purposes and wasn't factual.

The fact they allowed it to fly outbound on an unspecified but identically sized aircraft and inbound on the 767 which has essentially the same physical space as the 737 exposes the absurdity of their self serving statement.

A 4/4 cello hard case has a dimension 54 x 12.2 x 20.5 inches (source Amazon "Crossrock" case).

"Southwest Airlines announced that its new 737 airplanes will boast seats with a rare commodity: a little extra room for your butt. The bottom seat cushions will be 17.8 inches across, whereas the typical seat width on 737s is 17 to 17.3 inches."

The aisle width from the front of the seat to the back of the facing seat is about 9" to 10" depending on the contents of the seat pocket.

According to my math, the case won't fit on the floor due to the 10" aisle width (case is 12") and it wont' fit on the seat (case is 20.5" wide and seat is 17.8" max.).

I'm not convinced the airlines are being disingenuous in this case.

And why I wasted my time on this stupid exercise I have no idea....

 

[denverpilot]

A 4/4 cello hard case has a dimension 54 x 12.2 x 20.5 inches (source Amazon "Crossrock" case).

"Southwest Airlines announced that its new 737 airplanes will boast seats with a rare commodity: a little extra room for your butt. The bottom seat cushions will be 17.8 inches across, whereas the typical seat width on 737s is 17 to 17.3 inches."

The aisle width from the front of the seat to the back of the facing seat is about 9" to 10" depending on the contents of the seat pocket.

According to my math, the case won't fit on the floor due to the 10" aisle width (case is 12") and it wont' fit on the seat (case is 20.5" wide and seat is 17.8" max.).

I'm not convinced the airlines are being disingenuous in this case.

And why I wasted my time on this stupid exercise I have no idea....

Why use the SWA numbers? The actual numbers for AA are published including true seat pitch.

 

[spiderweb]

As long as whatever is there is transported in such a way so as not to cause discomfort or danger to other passengers, as long as a passenger is willing to pay for the ticket they should be able to put whatever they want there. If someone bought ever seat on a 747 for their own transatlantic flight, shouldn't they be able to do that? As far as human remains, consider an urn. There is no way I would check that. I had the TSA once empty protein powder out of my checked luggage (they even put the scoop back in the container). There's no way I'd risk that happening to a relative's remains in an urn. Same thing with an instrument. After seeing how checked baggage is often handled, if I had to travel with one of my guitars it is traveling in the cabin.

That, and the fact that every DAY, cellists and other musicians buy a seat for and travel with their instrument. It has been that way since the beginning of commercial air travel.

It doesn't only suck when someone in the company suddenly doesn't understand their own rules or policies, even when you've done this with the airline for decades, and you're less than 24 hours from a concert--it can mean the end of a career.

And THAT is why there is a list of airlines unfriendly to us, easily accessed on the web; and thank God there is.

 

[spiderweb]

A 4/4 cello hard case has a dimension 54 x 12.2 x 20.5 inches (source Amazon "Crossrock" case).

"Southwest Airlines announced that its new 737 airplanes will boast seats with a rare commodity: a little extra room for your butt. The bottom seat cushions will be 17.8 inches across, whereas the typical seat width on 737s is 17 to 17.3 inches."

The aisle width from the front of the seat to the back of the facing seat is about 9" to 10" depending on the contents of the seat pocket.

According to my math, the case won't fit on the floor due to the 10" aisle width (case is 12") and it wont' fit on the seat (case is 20.5" wide and seat is 17.8" max.).

I'm not convinced the airlines are being disingenuous in this case.

And why I wasted my time on this stupid exercise I have no idea....

Math is not correct because the case does not have an even thickness. At the base of the case, you're looking at about 8 inches.

The case fits. Every day cellists are paying for and flying with their instruments in a window seat. It is not abnormal or a curiosity.

In fact the very reason it made NATIONAL news is not because of the cello riding in the passenger cabin; but because of the unprofessional treatment of the passenger and lame-ass “apology” by the company. “Misunderstanding?” Seriously? How about just read your own policies?

 

[mscard88]

it can be a whole lot nicer flying yourself and your instrument.

I agree. I prefer to fly with my instrument. Always.

 

[kayoh190]

Mostly the Unions would have to figure it out.

If one of them figured out how to have cross company seniority they might actually be worth their dues.

But they don’t have the teeth they once did. Well, if they ever did. So they’d have to fix that first.

Cross company seniority is definitely the panacea that everyone points to, but there's no way it'll ever happen. Too many conflicting interests. Pilots are no different than humans anywhere else - those at the top will never give up their position for the overall good.

 

[Sluggo63]

AA's explanation is pretty weak:

I'm not an expert on this, but I'm pretty sure the seat width, seat pitch, and aisle width on AA 737s and 767s are identical. If they differ, it's not by more than an inch or two. American needs a better PR Prevaricator.

When AA said they accommodated the passenger by placing her and the cello on a "larger aircraft", they misled the public by intimating there was a difference in size between the seating space of a 737 and 767, which I'm almost certain is not the case.

AA's claim they accommodated the unlucky passenger and her cello on a "larger aircraft", which clearly infers larger with regard to space for the instrument, was simply for PR purposes and wasn't factual.

The fact they allowed it to fly outbound on an unspecified but identically sized aircraft and inbound on the 767 which has essentially the same physical space as the 737 exposes the absurdity of their self serving statement.

Gotta say, on this one we do. The sizes of seats and pitches on AA 73s and 76s are public knowledge.

Standard PR BS to cover for whatever actually went down.

Guess what? I am a professional cellist, and as you say, AA's excuse is quite a weak one. Actually, it is BS.

There aren't many of us, but every day there are probably 50-100 cellists traveling with our instruments. Some of us are professionals, and if we don't arrive on time for a concert, that could be it for our careers.

You guys are missing an important piece of the puzzle. All this talk of seat pitch and width and looking up cello case dimensions on Amazon in order to prove the airline did something wrong is just spinning your wheels. It has nothing to do with that. This cello may have flown the first leg on a 737 just fine and been justifiably kicked off the 737 flight home.

The cello goes in a window seat.

You’re still missing a stipulation in AA’s policy.

The instrument has to be in a hard bulkhead window seat. But @spiderweb probably already knows that since he flies with a cello all the time.

Here’s the SeatGuru seat map for an American Airlines 737-800. Notice the hard bulkhead depicted between First and Economy.


Here’s picture of the same cabin (Note the hard bulkhead):


Here’s the seat map to American’s 737MAX 8. Notice there’s a curtain between First and Economy:


Here’s a picture of the aircraft interior (Note the lack of bulkhead, just a curtain):


I don’t have any inside information, but I’m guessing this is what happened. The plane they got kicked off of was a 737 MAX 8. Granted, somebody probably should have stopped them before they boarded, but with the way equipment changes work, switching from an 800 to a MAX may have been a last minute deal. An observant Flight Attendant, who knew the rules correctly told the passenger that they couldn’t fly on that plane due to the restriction of needing a bulkhead seat. The next plane was probably also a MAX. They needed to be rebooked on something with a bulkhead (or buy a First Class ticket, where there is a hard bulkhead).

Of course leave it to one of our high strung 121 pilots to think everything was probably conducted properly.

Of course leave it to the high-strung arm chair pilots on here to think they know everything about airline operations.

EDIT: A real quick look at Flight Aware shows that what I think is the flight in question was a 737-800, which should have been okay. I don’t know if a last minute equipment swap would have changed the aircraft type in Flight Aware, though.

 

[kayoh190]

^^^ @Sluggo63 - that's a great thought, and one that I had too. But based on the photo (and a little internal digging to be sure), the aircraft in question was an NG.

I was not, however, aware of the bulkhead rule. That could easily explain the problem - lots of employees missing it, and finally caught by an FA once everyone was onboard.

 

[Sluggo63]

^^^ @Sluggo63 - that's a great thought, and one that I had too. But based on the photo (and a little internal digging to be sure), the aircraft in question was an NG.

Funny, I was just typing as you were. After all my internet sleuthing, I realized that I could look and see if the flight was indeed a MAX. It looks like it wasn’t. I don’t know if all the 800s have hard bulkheads, or if some of them have been retrofitted and have had the bulkhead taken out to save weight. That would actually make more sense. In that case, there’s no way the gate agent would even know if they saw 738 if it was a bulkhead plane or curtain plane.

 

[kayoh190]

Funny, I was just typing as you were. After all my internet sleuthing, I realized that I could look and see if the flight was indeed a MAX. It looks like it wasn’t. I don’t know if all the 800s have hard bulkheads, or if some of them have been retrofitted and have had the bulkhead taken out to save weight. That would actually make more sense. In that case, there’s no way the gate agent would even know if they saw 738 if it was a bulkhead plane or curtain plane.

Now that you mention it, they ARE planning to retrofit many of the older NGs into the newer interior style of the MAX - I just didn't think they started actually doing it yet. Let me do a little more digging and see what I find...