Aircraft Ditching Course

Cajun_Flyer

Cajun_Flyer

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I read an article in the NY Times (CLICK HERE) about a survival training center in Groton, CT that offers 1-2 day courses on crash/water ditching survival. They have a couple devices that they strap you into, simulate a crash into a pool of water and then you have to get yourself out. You don't get any kind of breathing device or nose clip, and when they submerge the "aircraft," it starts flipping and water fills your nose. It sounds... terrifying! o_O

But I'm interested.

They also cover topics like dealing with hypoxia, fire in the cockpit, hypothermia, use of survival equipment, rescue techniques, life raft use/deployment, etc... you also get certified for first aid/AED/CPR. It's relevance goes beyond just that for a pilot, in my opinion.

Needless to say, a hefty price tag comes with this course. The training center offered me and my friend (also a pilot) a really sweet discount - so the price we would get for the two day course would be actually a couple hundred dollars cheaper than what's quoted in that article for a one day course. Still expensive, but much more fair.

I'm curious if anyone on here has done this, or something like this? If so, please offer your thoughts and whether you think it's worth the $$$.
 
I know a few military pilots who said dunker training was one of the worst experiences they've been through. Got a friend who failed it several times and almost fired from his job. Good training though!:D

I think if you're one who's comfortable in the water you should have no problem.
 
Any training that increases your survival knowledge is worthwhile. This may save your life someday, flying or not, so I definitely see it as beneficial. Maybe you can get a few more to attend and get the price lower.

Personally I think they should make it realistic and dump y'all offshore 5 miles out in mid winter and let you find your way to shore! ;)
 
Velocity173 said:
I think if you're one who's comfortable in the water you should have no problem.
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I'm comfortable in water - swimming is about the only exercise that doesn't bore me, but am definitely afraid of drowning.

mscard88 said:
This may save your life someday, flying or not, so I definitely see it as beneficial.
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Learned last night that our state police helicopter pilots are required to do this training every so many years, so there definitely must be value to it. As for it potentially saving my life, this news clip actually features some pilots who said the course helped save their life shortly after taking it (minute 2:33) ...


"stay calm, don't panic, and have a plan" <- General good life advice, pilot or not.
 
This sounds like something that is worth while to go through, especially for people who wanna be career pilots. It sounds, aweful... but if I had the cash to blow, I would do it.
 
I trained once with the Coast Guard just to swim in the ocean and get into a life raft while wearing a dunk suit and life jacket. Both are essential here due to cold water.

Got my butt handed to me in 6 foot swells. It's a lot harder than it looks. It took everything I had just to plop in that raft. Though the USCG swimmers make it look easy.
 
I would be interested in trying it. Those type of things are indeed things that you need to determine if you can handle (and work on if you can't). There are a whole lot of related things: actual IMC, SCUBA diving, firefighting that are similar. You'd like to work it out at times other than "the real deal".

I remember my early days in fire training. We went down underground in an old Nike silo which had half set up like a residence and the other half just a maze/obstacle course. They place was pitch black and full of smoke and you had to feel your way through. I remember one room you entered on the floor and the exit was on the wall ABOVE where you came in. It gets a little unnerving. Actually, they did away with the smoke in later years. It really didn't do much for the students (they were wearing breathing apparatus) but it irritated the hell out of the instructors. Years later I knew why we'd done things like this. I found a guy who reentered his burning house and got disoriented and ended up wedged between the washing machine and the wall. The door to survival was several feet away but he was overcome before he found it.
 
I suggest you take up scuba and snorkeling first. A scuba PADI class is about $400. Try and find one that does an open water dive, usually they do that at the end. Scuba is a good introduction to functioning underwater. Then just go snorkel and do it without the fins and clothed. Have you ever been in the water in clothing? If not, go to a pond with an uninflated life vest and a friend with a throw rope and try it. You really need an inflatable life vest to have much chance of survival at all. You will last about 10 minutes in clothing even in warm water with no life preserver. Fixed gear aircraft have a tendency to flip when they land on water. You become exhausted. Length of time depends on conditioning though. Don't expect to be able to take anything with you thats not on you. All you will do is want to GET THE **** OUT and GET TO AIR!

I did all that years ago. Never landed a land plane in water, but I have landed a seaplane. Getting a seaplane rating gets some experience under your belt. Cost $1000. Still, you can only do what Sully did with retract and pressurized. Most GA planes flip if fixed gear and sink quick if not pressurized.
 
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We were JUST talking about doing this at our CAP meeting this week. OKC is just a little over 2 hours from us in a CAP spam can.
 
Learn to Return does it in their pilot safety classes in Anchorage.
 
I have been thinking about it more since I got my seaplane rating. I figured that although seaplanes are designed to land on water, there is always a chance that something could go awry and I could find myself submerged and upside down.

The only ditching though that I want to do is to ditch work on a nice sunny day.
 
coloradobluesky said:
I suggest you take up scuba and snorkeling first. A scuba PADI class is about $400. Try and find one that does an open water dive, usually they do that at the end. Scuba is a good introduction to functioning underwater. Then just go snorkel and do it without the fins and clothed. Have you ever been in the water in clothing? If not, go to a pond with an uninflated life vest and a friend with a throw rope and try it. You really need an inflatable life vest to have much chance of survival at all. You will last about 10 minutes in clothing even in warm water with no life preserver. Fixed gear aircraft have a tendency to flip when they land on water. You become exhausted. Length of time depends on conditioning though. Don't expect to be able to take anything with you thats not on you. All you will do is want to GET THE **** OUT and GET TO AIR!

I did all that years ago. Never landed a land plane in water, but I have landed a seaplane. Getting a seaplane rating gets some experience under your belt. Cost $1000. Still, you can only do what Sully did with retract and pressurized. Most GA planes flip if fixed gear and sink quick if not pressurized.
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In this course, the "plane" flips when it impacts the water, so they keep it real I guess. They also have you in a flight suit, so you aren't just in light swimwear. I'm pretty comfortable in water - was on a swim team and high dive team for years, and pretty much lived in pools and ponds until I moved up north. BUT... I was held underwater once as a kid by my friend's brother, so I definitely have some strong anxieties about being trapped underwater/drowning.

Honestly, I think part of the appeal of this course for me is to find out how I will react to a real panic-inducing situation. I've had small samplings of those kind of situations in my life and I think I react pretty rationally and methodically... but this would certainly test that.

I would love to get a seaplane rating.

eman1200 said:
PoA team building. let's do it!!!!
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Come along, Eman! There's an airport right across the street :)
 
Flight suit or immersion suit? They are quite different.

Immersion suits are very heavy when you remove them from water, which is rather relevant for getting in a life raft. They work quite well against hypothermia, though.
 
MAKG1 said:
Flight suit or immersion suit? They are quite different.
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My understanding is that students just wear their swimswuit with a basic flight suit over it, while staff wear all the water gear. There is supposed to be a staff person ready to extract you at all times.
 
luvflyin said:
How real do they make it? What's the temperature of the water in the training pool?
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Local high school swimming pool. Typical seasonal clothes are required to be worn. They have a slide with a pod that drops you into the water hard and inverts you. You have to try to get out. Yes, they have a safety diver there.
 
;)
MAKG1 said:
Flight suit or immersion suit? They are quite different.

Immersion suits are very heavy when you remove them from water, which is rather relevant for getting in a life raft. They work quite well against hypothermia, though.
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Immersion suit heavy? Not particularly. They don't absorb water and usually don't let much water in unless damaged. There are several styles. I've worn both the thick and thin versions. Only worn the thick version in the water and I had to demonstrate donning it in the water.

When you put the suit on while in the water then it's going to be full and then it will be a little heavier but getting in the raft in calm conditions was just as awkward as climbing in without the suit. It's always easier for the second guy but things get a bit personal. :);)
 
Clark1961 said:
;)
Immersion suit heavy? Not particularly. They don't absorb water and usually don't let much water in unless damaged. There are several styles. I've worn both the thick and thin versions. Only worn the thick version in the water and I had to demonstrate donning it in the water.

When you put the suit on while in the water then it's going to be full and then it will be a little heavier but getting in the raft in calm conditions was just as awkward as climbing in without the suit. It's always easier for the second guy but things get a bit personal. :);)
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There are apparently multiple styles of immersion suits, both "dry" and "wet." Mine weighed at least 30 lb after walking into the surf and then back out. It wicked water right up to the skin and held it there with no circulation, rather effective against the cold. But damn heavy.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I'm comfortable in water - swimming is about the only exercise that doesn't bore me, but am definitely afraid of drowning. .
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How comfortable are you in 45F degree water?

I took the course in Anchorage. The water was probably 55 degrees, not really cold for Alaska. But that is part of surviving, getting out of cold water and dry off.

A good course to get you to thinking what happens after the crash. Not all plane crashes happen right next to a Hilton....
 
ircphoenix said:
I'd be the one guy that dies and gets the place shut down.
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I'm an incredibly unlucky person - like if there is a less than 1% chance of something bad happening in a situation, that something will happen to me. On the one hand, that's why I'm so interested in doing this course - so I'm prepared to deal with the inevitable doom that awaits me (but is incredibly unlikely for everyone else). On the other hand, that is probably why I should NOT do the course...
 
My wife had to do this for being an off-shore helicopter pilot. She did not enjoy it at all, and almost got left underwater once. It was necessary training for what she was doing, though.

Personally, I think it's pretty unnecessary unless you're flying helicopters off shore. I think you would be better off spending your money on something like upset recovery training, which you are much more likely to need. Or your instrument rating.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My wife had to do this for being an off-shore helicopter pilot. She did not enjoy it at all, and almost got left underwater once. It was necessary training for what she was doing, though.

Personally, I think it's pretty unnecessary unless you're flying helicopters off shore. I think you would be better off spending your money on something like upset recovery training, which you are much more likely to need. Or your instrument rating.
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+1. If you fly over large areas of water for a living or for recreation, I can see the need. All the guys I know in the GoM, really don't look forward to the event. Personally, wouldn't dissuade me from working down there though. I just hate sharks...and seeing water all day...and that schedule...:(
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Needless to say, a hefty price tag comes with this course. The training center offered me and my friend (also a pilot) a really sweet discount - so the price we would get for the two day course would be actually a couple hundred dollars cheaper than what's quoted in that article for a one day course. Still expensive, but much more fair.
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What is the actual price? I didn't find it on their web site.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Personally, I think it's pretty unnecessary unless you're flying helicopters off shore. I think you would be better off spending your money on something like upset recovery training, which you are much more likely to need. Or your instrument rating.
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I'm not 100% on doing this right now and for the reasons you mentioned. But I wasn't joking when I said I'm a really unlucky person... so when people say something is or isn't likely to happen, it really means little to me. In fact, I generally assume the less likely it is to happen, the more likely it is to happen to me :(

BUT, I agree I should probably prioritize spending in regards to flight safety. I've already started studying for the instrument written and plan to start that training soon.

I guess I just see other benefits to a course like this, though.
 
Velocity173 said:
+1. If you fly over large areas of water for a living or for recreation, I can see the need. All the guys I know in the GoM, really don't look forward to the event. Personally, wouldn't dissuade me from working down there though. I just hate sharks...and seeing water all day...and that schedule...:(
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It's a bipolar life and works for some. The nice part about it when my wife and I were dating (and then first married, during which time I was a contract pilot and thus home a lot) was that we got to spend a lot of great quality time together. But that was only half the time. The other half she was gone, and that was difficult. I got a lot of work done on the cars and the house, though. Definitely a lot of positives to that, and I miss those aspects of those days. I don't miss driving my wife to the airport to leave for her 2 weeks on.

Now, I'm happy with my standard 8-5 job and being home for dinner every night and to read my kids bedtime stories.
 
Back when I was young and foolish...

I was a junior in college and was a graduate of a reputable SCUBA course. One of the frostbite sailing boats had capsized, and the winds had driven the hull over the mast thereby driving the mast about 4' into the mud. They didnt want to tie a line to the boat and just pull as that would bend the mast. So they asked me and another mental giant to gear up, jump in, and pull the mast out of the mud with our feet pushing against the bottom.

Problem was that neither of us had a full wet or dry suit. I had a wet suit jacket, nothing like pants for my legs, and fins sized for a size 13 foot and assuming I was wearing the bottom part of the wet suit which includes feet protection built into the legs of the suit. So essentially I had a tank/regulator, a well fitting mask, a wet suit jacket, and some fins.

Ok, the boat is in position and with no one in the water, we were able to lift the hull off the butt of the mast.

Time to get wet! Oh, did I say this was in March, in Long Island Sound? Making this story a little shorter: we got the mast out ok. But my hands and legs were useless. I was in 42 degree water for 17 minutes and without the minimal protection I had, or without the (dry and warm) boat crew, I'd be dead. As it was, my nonfunctional hands could not remove the fins that were at least two sizes too big

Great lesson! I have been very conservative flying over water of any temperature ever since.

-Skip
 
SkyDog58 said:
I have been thinking about it more since I got my seaplane rating. I figured that although seaplanes are designed to land on water, there is always a chance that something could go awry and I could find myself submerged and upside down.

The only ditching though that I want to do is to ditch work on a nice sunny day.
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C'mon, what could go wrong?

upload_2017-1-12_17-2-27.pngupload_2017-1-12_17-3-10.png
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My wife had to do this for being an off-shore helicopter pilot. She did not enjoy it at all, and almost got left underwater once. It was necessary training for what she was doing, though.

Personally, I think it's pretty unnecessary unless you're flying helicopters off shore. I think you would be better off spending your money on something like upset recovery training, which you are much more likely to need. Or your instrument rating.
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I took the training because my employer paid for it and I rode in the back of helicopters flying over swamps and offshore at almost all hours of the day/night. It's good training on overcoming disorientation to escape.

As a former city pool lifeguard I'm comfortable in the water and know what I can do. I learned a lot in the training and got to share a few things with fellow students. We had a non-swimmer in the course and the instructors tried the old school "ya just have to do it" with them. While I understood the reasoning there's nothing wrong with showing them a dog paddle...and the old training kicks in pretty hard when it comes to seeing someone in trouble in the water.
 
The immersion suit is just a body bag with a hole for your face.
 
MAKG1 said:
Flight suit or immersion suit?
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Helo dunker used to be recurrent training for me along with a host of other water torture, er, survival 'devices'. We always did it in a flight suit, steel-toed boots and a helmet. I found that once I resigned myself to filling my sinuses with pool water it was sort of fun. Getting kicked in the teeth by a steel-toed boot while upside-down and wearing blackout goggles, not so much.

Nauga,
who hates treading water in steel-toed boots
 
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