Aircraft Ditching Course

Clark1961 said:
I took the training because my employer paid for it and I rode in the back of helicopters flying over swamps and offshore at almost all hours of the day/night. It's good training on overcoming disorientation to escape.

As a former city pool lifeguard I'm comfortable in the water and know what I can do. I learned a lot in the training and got to share a few things with fellow students. We had a non-swimmer in the course and the instructors tried the old school "ya just have to do it" with them. While I understood the reasoning there's nothing wrong with showing them a dog paddle...and the old training kicks in pretty hard when it comes to seeing someone in trouble in the water.
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Do you see any benefit to taking this course for people who are not helicopter pilots or pilots flying regularly over water?
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I read an article in the NY Times (CLICK HERE) about a survival training center in Groton, CT that offers 1-2 day courses on crash/water ditching survival. They have a couple devices that they strap you into, simulate a crash into a pool of water and then you have to get yourself out. You don't get any kind of breathing device or nose clip, and when they submerge the "aircraft," it starts flipping and water fills your nose. It sounds... terrifying! o_O

But I'm interested.

They also cover topics like dealing with hypoxia, fire in the cockpit, hypothermia, use of survival equipment, rescue techniques, life raft use/deployment, etc... you also get certified for first aid/AED/CPR. It's relevance goes beyond just that for a pilot, in my opinion.

Needless to say, a hefty price tag comes with this course. The training center offered me and my friend (also a pilot) a really sweet discount - so the price we would get for the two day course would be actually a couple hundred dollars cheaper than what's quoted in that article for a one day course. Still expensive, but much more fair.

I'm curious if anyone on here has done this, or something like this? If so, please offer your thoughts and whether you think it's worth the $$$.
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I've done three water survival courses. The first was with the folks Cajun mentioned. The 2nd was with the FAA and the 3rd was with some folks that are contracted by CAE.

By far Survival Systems was the best of the three. I went through their 2 day course about 14 or 15 years ago when I was doing whale surveys. Fortunately it was paid for by my employer. The first day is all classroom IIRC. During the 2nd day several different scenarios (6??) are presented for you to escape from. They also have you get into a raft, and "rescue" you with a few different methods used by the Coast Guard and other SAR folks.

The FAA was a one day deal that covered more than the underwater stuff. You actually are in a "smoke" filled airliner that is totally dark, and you have to navigate your way out. The underwater portion was actually quite lame.

The CAE deal was even lamer. It was a couple hours of classroom followed by a hour or so at a local high school pool. They showed you how to inflate your life vest and get in a raft. Oh, and how to stay together as a group. That's about it for the practical.

Cajun_Flyer said:
Do you see any benefit to taking this course for people who are not helicopter pilots or pilots flying regularly over water?
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I sure as hell do see a benefit. The training, especially Survival Systems program, doesn't just apply to aircraft, but also a sinking/capsized boat will put you in the same situation, as well as a car that has run off a bridge. The basics for escape and survival is all the same.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Do you see any benefit to taking this course for people who are not helicopter pilots or pilots flying regularly over water?
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There is benefit but it's difficult to put a value on it. It is incredibly disorienting to be turned upside down while blindfolded which is what you may have in a night landing off airport. I can tell you the steps required to get out but I can't give you the experience of overcoming the disorientation.

The water part of it was almost nothing for me after the first ride in the dunker. If you have a fear to overcome then take the middle seat in the dunker with a fat person/slow mover in the outboard seat. You'll get yer mind right and maybe motivate the slow mover...I took extra rides just to help fill the seats and had fun with slow moving people. I was the skinny guy in a world of 4 squares a day people.
 
yes, sounds horrible.
and ironically you have to pay for it lol.
but agreed, any survival training is GOOD training.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Do you see any benefit to taking this course for people who are not helicopter pilots or pilots flying regularly over water?
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I wouldn't think of it as some kind of new skill you are going to acquire. But, it is usually helpful to expose yourself to these types of emergencies in a controlled atmosphere. The Navy made their water survival training very realistic, I thought. But there's always a comfort in knowing you're only in a swimming pool and there is a diver nearby. Most people are more worried about failing than drowning.

The dunker training is kind of painful as you get water repeatedly jammed up your nose. And like Nauga said you may have other people kind of panicking and kicking you on the way out. If you can get it for a reasonable price it would probably be helpful just to see how you respond. It teaches you to be calm and to not panic when your lungs start burning a little. If you time your breath wrong on the blindfolded portion, simulating nighttime, it can be a little unnerving.

The Navy added a trainer that is basically a chair on a swivel mounted on top of a cage. It flips you upside down blindfolded into the water and you have to find your way out of the cage. One direction is a dead end and the other direction has an opening to exit. Quite a few people had problems with that one.
 
Cooter said:
I wouldn't think of it as some kind of new skill you are going to acquire. But, it is usually helpful to expose yourself to these types of emergencies in a controlled atmosphere. The Navy made their water survival training very realistic, I thought. But there's always a comfort in knowing you're only in a swimming pool and there is a diver nearby. Most people are more worried about failing than drowning.

The dunker training is kind of painful as you get water repeatedly jammed up your nose. And like Nauga said you may have other people kind of panicking and kicking you on the way out. If you can get it for a reasonable price it would probably be helpful just to see how you respond. It teaches you to be calm and to not panic when your lungs start burning a little. If you time your breath wrong on the blindfolded portion, simulating nighttime, it can be a little unnerving.

The Navy added a trainer that is basically a chair on a swivel mounted on top of a cage. It flips you upside down blindfolded into the water and you have to find your way out of the cage. One direction is a dead end and the other direction has an opening to exit. Quite a few people had problems with that one.
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Just talking to an old friend last night about the chair. That was his problem as well. Took him 3 tries before he passed. He also had problems with the 75 meter swim followed by the treading water before inflating his water wings. He's glad to be leaving the job and not having to do it every 4 years.
 
Update - the place that offers the course just gave me an extremely sweet deal after I told them I just couldn't justify the cost right now. So it looks like I'm going to do it at the end of the month. I'll be sure to report back so anyone interested knows about the experience and what they could expect.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Update - the place that offers the course just gave me an extremely sweet deal after I told them I just couldn't justify the cost right now. So it looks like I'm going to do it at the end of the month. I'll be sure to report back so anyone interested knows about the experience and what they could expect.
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Good luck and have fun!!!
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Update - the place that offers the course just gave me an extremely sweet deal after I told them I just couldn't justify the cost right now. So it looks like I'm going to do it at the end of the month. I'll be sure to report back so anyone interested knows about the experience and what they could expect.
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V-effect right thar!
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Update - the place that offers the course just gave me an extremely sweet deal after I told them I just couldn't justify the cost right now. So it looks like I'm going to do it at the end of the month. I'll be sure to report back so anyone interested knows about the experience and what they could expect.
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A couple days away from this. The full details of the two day course are as follows -

Cabin emergency response training:
  • Fire fighting in a smoke-filled cabin environment
  • Crewmember duties, responsibilities and emergency coordination
  • Hazards to aircraft and crewmembers
  • Survival equipment carried on aircraft
  • Aircraft accident/incident history
  • Crewmember incapacitation
  • General hijacking and other unusual situations
  • Operations above 25,000 feet and rapid decompression
  • Emergency breathing systems and oxygen delivery systems
  • Proper brace positions, emergency exit jettisoning and cabin evacuation
  • Life raft deployment
Emergency water survival skills:
  • Life Preserver Units (LPU)
  • Surface survival formations and hypothermia mitigation positions
  • Boarding and righting a life raft
  • Use of surface rescue devices in use by Search and Rescue responders
  • Underwater escape training using the Modular Egress Training Simulator (METS™) - eek!!!!
  • First aid training:
  • The carrier’s first aid kit contents
  • Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation (CPR)
  • Use of an Automatic External Defibrillator (AED)

I'll definitely update my blog (Inbound with Whiskey) shortly after the experience, but will try to update here as well when able.
 
Wow, that course covers a lot of ground! Looking forward to your impressions of the experience. I'd like to try out one of those flip-and-dunk simulators sometime, as fixed gear planes very often find themselves upside down in water landings. The initial disorientation from the impact/flip has got to scramble your brain for a bit.
 
UPDATE... I'm still alive!

Cliffnotes version - it was incredibly intense, but I completed it in full. I'm extremely glad that I did, recommend it to anyone - pilot or not, and I would do it again.

If you want to read the full write-up, it's here: Surviving a Plane Crash in Water

If you are too lazy to read that, here's a short video from the day:
 
Wow! Intense was a good way to describe it..
Congratulations.. Nice accomplishment..


Cajun_Flyer said:
UPDATE... I'm still alive!

Cliffnotes version - it was incredibly intense, but I completed it in full. I'm extremely glad that I did, recommend it to anyone - pilot or not, and I would do it again.

If you want to read the full write-up, it's here: Surviving a Plane Crash in Water

If you are too lazy to read that, here's a short video from the day:
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Cajun_Flyer said:
UPDATE... I'm still alive!

Cliffnotes version - it was incredibly intense, but I completed it in full. I'm extremely glad that I did, recommend it to anyone - pilot or not, and I would do it again.

If you want to read the full write-up, it's here: Surviving a Plane Crash in Water
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Read the blog. Glad you got through it. I'm sure you'll agree that the same skill sets will work in dunking situations other than an airplane.

I should have given you the dates of my class so you could snap a picture for me!
 
Anymouse said:
Read the blog. Glad you got through it. I'm sure you'll agree that the same skill sets will work in dunking situations other than an airplane.

I should have given you the dates of my class so you could snap a picture for me!
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It was definitely a unique experience! Although I've felt like crud ever since... guess water flooding unrestricted up your sinuses multiple times like that isn't so great for the body.

But still really glad I did it.
 
I'd be dead. Upside down, underwater, in the dark with water flooding my sinuses... yep. Sheer effing panic. Might as well throw a spider in there too since they've designed that thing specifically with my worst fears.
 
ircphoenix said:
I'd be dead. Upside down, underwater, in the dark with water flooding my sinuses... yep. Sheer effing panic. Might as well throw a spider in there too since they've designed that thing specifically with my worst fears.
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Nah, you could do it. I really thought I was going to bail after watching student after student go into the big blue dunker (METS), especially when they started with the lights off thing. But the staff was top notch and made me feel very safe. As for dying? Not possible. They had divers everywhere, including one right in front of me the whole time.
 
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Cajun_Flyer said:
Nah, you could do it. I really thought I was going to bail after watching student after student go into the big blue dunker (METS), especially when they started with the lights off thing. But the staff was top notch and made me feel very safe. As for dying? Not possible. They had divers everywhere, including one right in front of me the whole time.
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Oh I have no doubt that they take every precaution and are meticulous about safety.

But I also have no doubt in my ability to give myself a heart attack whilst inhaling a gallon of water.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
It was definitely a unique experience! Although I've felt like crud ever since... guess water flooding unrestricted up your sinuses multiple times like that isn't so great for the body.

But still really glad I did it.
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Thank you for taking on "aviation waterboarding" for your benefit and the rest of us on POA! I enjoyed your writeup.
 
This I'd like to try. I've been swimming and diving since I was small and am very comfortable in and under the water. But don't throw the spider in there!
 
jsstevens said:
This I'd like to try. I've been swimming and diving since I was small and am very comfortable in and under the water. But don't throw the spider in there!
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Snakes? Sharks? Gators?

I feel like they could have made it more "real" with any of the above ;)
 
This Groton, CT facility is getting a lot of press... they were featured on the Today show this morning. Couldn't link the clip from this morning, but here's an upload from them from a few weeks back. I like it because it shows some of the other things the school instructs on, like life raft use.

 
SkyDog58 said:
I have been thinking about it more since I got my seaplane rating. I figured that although seaplanes are designed to land on water, there is always a chance that something could go awry and I could find myself submerged and upside down.
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Funny enough, just a few days after completing the course I recorded this woman talking about her experience in a flipped seaplane -


She was a CFI in the plane with another pilot when this happened.


By the way, just got an email from Plane & Pilot that they want to publish my write-up! Have to round it out a bit more and make it more GA-relevant, but pretty cool. Apparently AOPA Pilot magazine has someone going to do the course later this month, so they weren't interested. Now I just have to make sure my article is better than theirs :)
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
By the way, just got an email from Plane & Pilot that they want to publish my write-up! Have to round it out a bit more and make it more GA-relevant, but pretty cool.
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Congrats! Hope the royalties are enough to buy a few turns of the Hobbs :)
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
Snakes? Sharks? Gators?

I feel like they could have made it more "real" with any of the above ;)
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For crew change we'd depart in the dark from Forchon in a 412. I don't think they flew single pilot or single engine in the dark. Yes I did think about being underwater, in the dark with a gator. The thought of a shrimp boat crewman in lieu of the gator was equally disturbing. YMWV.
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
By the way, just got an email from Plane & Pilot that they want to publish my write-up! Have to round it out a bit more and make it more GA-relevant, but pretty cool. Apparently AOPA Pilot magazine has someone going to do the course later this month, so they weren't interested. Now I just have to make sure my article is better than theirs :)
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Should I give you the proper spelling of my name?? :p
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I was just going to use the collective "PoA know-it-alls" when I mention who gave me advice for/against the course ;)
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Look what arrived in my mailbox yesterday.

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Just slightly disappointed the monkey didn't make it past the editors, though. :)
 
ircphoenix said:
So despite living within 10 minutes of the beach for my entire life, I'm a terrible swimmer and terrified of drowning. There is not a snowball's chance in hell that I would do this. I'd be the one guy that dies and gets the place shut down.
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Yeah, the idea of this was terrifying by itself, then @Cajun_Flyer video showing that final test would definitely have put me over the edge. Kudos to her for doing it though, experiences like that are good to have in your arsenal, but I've often thought of myself as the guy lost in the woods who would probably just say "no thanks, I'm good, I think I'll just live here from now on" if it involved anything requiring that kind of magnitude to escape.

P.S. - I grew up sailing but really don't care for actually being "in" the ocean, people never understood that and my fear of heights despite being obsessed with planes

Ted DuPuis said:
Personally, I think it's pretty unnecessary unless you're flying helicopters off shore. I think you would be better off spending your money on something like upset recovery training, which you are much more likely to need. Or your instrument rating.
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That was kind of my thought as well. Although, I think this type of training ventures into "thrill sport" category for some people who don't really "need" it for their profession. Like I bet helo skiing would be an expensive and mildly terrifying but ultimately fun and worthwhile experience, as would sky diving, etc.

Cajun_Flyer said:
If you are too lazy to read that, here's a short video from the day:
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When I saw the first "SWET" chair I thought "okay, that's not bad... easy peezy" then I saw that bus get dunked and inverted in the pitch blank.. NO THANKS. It did remind me though a tiny bit of submariner training videos I've seen

Really, that's where the BRS seems to really have it's value. Engine failure, at night, over water. Yeah not trying to ditch that, just pull the chute and wait for help
 
asicer said:
Look what arrived in my mailbox yesterday.

cover.jpg


Just slightly disappointed the monkey didn't make it past the editors, though. :)
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OMG! I'll have to hit up Barnes and Noble tomorrow to get a copy! Does it suck? What pictures did they use? Nevermind, I'll see tomorrow.

I mean, not that I'm excited to see something else I wrote published ;)
 
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