After the Grand Illusion ends...

We have a youth build program in the EAA Chapter. Young folks are coming out and building airplanes with us, Ultra-Lite Pietenpol, full sized Pietenpol and a BD-6 currently. We give them credit for hours worked that they can use against the rental of a 150. CFI is donating time to instruct. Since April 1st we've had three of our group solo, one this morning. I have a young lady, HS senior, getting close. I know one the young men will go into the Naval with his aspiration to be a Naval aviator. I have no doubt he will achieve that. He is highlighted in my Meet Steven thread. Not sure where the others will end up, but I'd hazard a guess in a professional flying career. The young man that soloed this morning had five hours in his logbook. BTW, I had 14 young folks at our build this morning.
 
It should be noted in response to the above, that Public Debt to GDP ratio is also a significant indicator and that trajectory isn't great.

We're at roughly 75%. This puts us middle of the pack, but a China is at 22%. China also owns roughly 1/3 of our public debt.

In other words, they're not willing to buy their citizens a particular lifestyle via debt. We are.

That won't be sustainable in the long term. But we're lower than many "western" countries. The U.K. sits around 98% for example.

This also doesn't touch on private debt.
 
How many of those hangar doors are ever open?

Our hangars are 98% full. I have never seen 90% of them open, and I am at the airport 5 random days per week.

At our airport, this is due to all the 70+ year old guys who simply cannot bring themselves to sell their planes, even though they haven't flown in years.

No doubt. I don't think it's 90% unused, but it's a bit. Hard to justify a $300 to $1000 monthly expense for an unused hangar over here, but it obviously happens.

I wish there were more strictly enforced rules when it comes to idle subsidized hangars. Maybe hangar rates should double every 6 months unless you can show a takeoff and landing in that period from whatever airplane is registered to the hangar. Or something like that.
 
Did they ever get a restaurant at Sporty's?

That trip still lives in memory as one of my most disappointing flights. After all the years of getting Sporty's catalogs, I had a vision of some sort of grandiose pilot's paradise in my head. So, I loaded the kids in the plane and flew from Southeast WI to Sporty's. (This in the 1990s.) We were stunned to find a tiny showroom (in front of a big warehouse) and craptastic vending machine food for lunch.

I don't think I've ever lived that one down with Mary... lol
It is funny you mention that trip. I had the same reaction on my first trip to Sporty's. When I was training, I used to look through the Sporty's catalogs cover to cover. It was before the plethora of on-line stores today. My first trip after my PPL was to Sporty's. It was less than a 2 hour trip but it was the first one I took and I felt like I was flying across the country. Me and another guy that just got his PPL flew down there. I was expecting to see the Walmart of aviation. It was such a let down to walk in and see that small pilot shop. I was expecting to spend hours browsing in the store. We were done in about 10 minutes. On the plus side, It was a Saturday and Hal was out cooking hot dogs. We chatted a while and flew home.
 
i was at oshkosh too, lots of people but not sure of totals
as far as airports it depends, at KHQZ home base no activity, flight school closing i believe only traffic some students coming over from KADS but no young people at all, then go to Hicks northwest close to alliance airport so much activity, homebuilts, planes taking off and landing, busy restaurant, lost of traffic. It depends of your location. Expensive hobby no matter how you look at it.
 
The death of GA started when airlines started offering inflight magazines. It is now at a zenith with onboard entertainment choices: passengers at the window seat can't close the shade fast enough so as to aid in electronic viewing. After all, what's to see out the window, what with the Pretty Little Liars I need to catch up on?

Re: Observation #232 (not seeing any airplanes), my eyes are almost as old as yours and Mary's, I get it. Thank God for ADS-B traffic on the GRT, eh? :D
 
A few more thoughts, shaken free by the conversation.

- Homebuilt planes in general, and RVs in particular, have almost single handedly kept GA alive. Even Cirrus, often pointed at as a "success story", sells fewer planes than Lamborghini sells supercars. RVs are everywhere, with 9000+ now flying!

- Marketing is key. My relatively recent entry into the classic car and hot rod world has exposed me to many more young people. The number of guys with $75,000 cars is mind boggling -- and NONE of them believe me when I tell them that they can buy a perfectly wonderful 4-seat airplane for less.

Why is that? Because GA has done a simply terrible job of marketing itself.

- Demographics are hard to beat, and the military is training very few new pilots. We've lost 99% of the WWII guys, the Korean War guys are mostly gone, and most of the early Vietnam guys are now hanging it up. Things get pretty sparse after them.

I love Oshkosh, and the optimism of everyone there will carry me through another year -- but I sure hate to come home. We spent 7 hours at our home drome today and again saw almost no activity on a sunny VFR Saturday.

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Sadly, we could not name a single airport in the area where GA planes are being rented anymore. Our airport's flight school closed a couple of years ago, and we know of no other rental planes in the area. Sure, there are CFIs around, but without rental planes, they aren't much good. It was sad, but we didn't know where to send him.
Well - you know - why don't you just solve that problem then? If you really want to boost GA in your area - buy a rental - find someone to teach in it - and start advertising. You could be "saving GA" by September.

It's an easy business if you are located at an airport that doesn't fight you at every turn. Sadly airport politics is the number one thing that makes our rental business difficult.

Anyhow, take action, works a lot better then just screaming that GA is dead all the time.

$40,000 or so for a rental airplane. Another $4,000 or so for the rental insurance. $500 for other misc mostly paperwork crap. The expenses needed before you can generate revenue is relatively low.

The best action that can be taken is to create new pilots. The best way to create new pilots is to simply make it possible in your area. Then advertise, advertise, advertise.

Will you make a bunch of money? Probably not. Will you lose a bunch of money? Probably not. Will you create pilots out of people that would have not otherwise became a pilot? Definitely.
 
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That is a GREAT point. All of these moribund pilots need to sell or scrap their planes and make room for the new generation.

Of course, if that happens all at once -- as it might -- the airports will suddenly be awash with hangars, and the market will be awash with used, cheap airplanes.

That is both good, and bad, of course.

A mass influx of decent aircraft/hangars driving prices down is what I'm hoping for before I dip my toes in the ownership pool. Not good for aircraft values and those who already own, but if there are 60/70 yr olds hanging it up or dying off, there is a high likelihood that their children don't have any interest in flying and will be willing to offload some decent aircraft for a bargain. I give it a decade before we see tangible results on that front.



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A mass influx of decent aircraft/hangars driving prices down is what I'm hoping for before I dip my toes in the ownership pool. Not good for aircraft values and those who already own, but if there are 60/70 yr olds hanging it up or dying off, there is a high likelihood that their children don't have any interest in flying and will be willing to offload some decent aircraft for a bargain. I give it a decade before we see tangible results on that front.

I'd say if you're counting on aviation to get cheaper in the future, you're bucking our monetary system.

It never has gotten cheaper in my lifetime and likely never will.

Why? Inflation.

The mechanic who made $50,000 a year in 2000, needs $70,884 in 2016 to have the same lifestyle.

By 2026-2027? Probably $80,000.

Honestly with the high elasticity of aircraft prices caused by them being nearly 100% discretionary items, the best way to buy an aircraft on "sale" is to save and actually hope for a recession.

Aircraft have a tendency to lose 20%-40% of their value temporarily during major economic recessions. But it bounces back.

If have savings aside and the recession isn't squeezing you too bad personally for whatever reasons, that's the time to buy. Owners who have to sell because the economy is squeezing them often sell well below the "usual" market value of the aircraft.

Another major event is that BasicMed just propped up aircraft values. The other thing to watch for when purchasing up until BasicMed was any pilot who lost a medical and had to sell their aircraft. Looks like over the long haul there may be less of that effect. But it's going to underpin prices that otherwise would have been steals.

It also just extended how long that Boomer crowd's number of years they will fly before hanging It up, probably. And that's your core demographic to buy their airplane from in your example. It just gave many of them with annoying but earnable SIs, ten more years of flying instead of hanging it up because the medical processes for the SI was expensive and tedious.
 
I'd say if you're counting on aviation to get cheaper in the future, you're bucking our monetary system.

It never has gotten cheaper in my lifetime and likely never will.

Why? Inflation.

The mechanic who made $50,000 a year in 2000, needs $70,884 in 2016 to have the same lifestyle.

By 2026-2027? Probably $80,000.

Honestly with the high elasticity of aircraft prices caused by them being nearly 100% discretionary items, the best way to buy an aircraft on "sale" is to save and actually hope for a recession.

Aircraft have a tendency to lose 20%-40% of their value temporarily during major economic recessions. But it bounces back.

If have savings aside and the recession isn't squeezing you too bad personally for whatever reasons, that's the time to buy. Owners who have to sell because the economy is squeezing them often sell well below the "usual" market value of the aircraft...

Agree that the best bargains are when an overextended seller has to dispose of discretionary toys to keep the principal residence.

After the 2008/09 financial crisis a lot of aircraft prices never came back to pre-recession values. Older V-tails can be had today for prices that were unthinkable a dozen years ago. The price of light twins utterly collapsed and are still bargains today imo. Even "middle aged" (early '90s) Mooneys are priced notably less - if that's your thing you can buy a pretty nice Ovation for quite a bit less than a decade ago.
 
Several good points here. Rental's have gotten so expensive because everyone feels they need a 172 or larger to teach in. I hardly ever see a 152, Tomahawk, etc... for rent anymore much less a cheap tail dragger (thanks insurance industry). Flight instructors want $50.00 an hour to teach where they used to do it practically free to get the hours. The lessons and test are so out of date it isn't funny. Dead reckoning is a valuable lesson but nobody uses it any more except when they loose a GPS. Rules and regs have prevented updating old planes, people are afraid of old airplanes, they expect to fly the latest in gadgetry. I can't tell you how many times a passenger has gotten cold feet when I tell them I will fly them in my 1970 Grumman and that's fairly new by airplane standards.

Airports are a joke now. Even my little privately owned airport has become politically correct to the point where nobody wants to hang out anymore. If you walk into most FBO's and don't scream I'm a pilot, you get awkward looks and the cold shoulder. Signs everywhere that say only pilots allowed on the flight line. Fences with security gates, locked doors that even pilots can't get into. Hangar waiting list that never seem to move because gramps who doesn't fly anymore doesn't want to sell his airplane. I mean who is going to buy a 40K airplane and let it sit on a ramp? And then you have the airplane ownership horror stories that we all tell. Warning people to get a pre-buy and instead of telling all of the pleasures of flying we tell maintenance horror stories and complain about the FAA.

My best suggestion is to not be this type of person. If you see a stranger talk to them, take them around and show them the airport. Take them for a ride in your airplane, invite them into your hangar, let them sit in your airplane. Give them suggestions on how to affordably get into the hobby. Tell them they can get a scanner and listen to airplane traffic at home or tell them about local flyins and airshows. And perhaps most important, don't tell them about POA!!! haha

P.S. Tell them I have a Grumman Yankee for sale that is about the cheapest way to get into aviation and that it's already ugly so they can let it sit on the ramp for cheap!!!
 
Unless you're getting into it as a career (commercial ops) it's always been an expensive avocation for most middle class folks. I think less people are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to get into GA.
 
How are active and inactive defined? I consider myself inactive as it has been a year since I have been on an airport.

A current flight review at minimum would be my metric for others. For myself, 90 day currency.
 
Aviation need not be expensive. Three guys can buy an $18,000 airplane and have less money invested than a used motorcycle.

The trick is finding two other like-minded guys. I was lucky to do so, and flew an Ercoupe for a few years that cost us virtually nothing but gas.

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Aviation need not be expensive. Three guys can buy an $18,000 airplane and have less money invested than a used motorcycle.

The trick is finding two other like-minded guys. I was lucky to do so, and flew an Ercoupe for a few years that cost us virtually nothing but gas.

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Or for $16,500 they could have a low time Grumman AA1 :)
 
GA itself for the major percentage of the population is a grand illusion...and for the multitude of reasons listed over and over.
It's just reality.
The hype, marketing and a dash of deceptive advertising all gave rise to the false hope in the 60s/70s rush that small plane travel was the schiznit.

Even me with the student stars in my eyes, knows.

I flew 151 miles yesterday on my long solo cross country. It was expensive, hot, bumpy, loud, the radio didn't work for part of the trip, no autopilot, did takeoffs/landings at one of the airports, flew slow due to the bumps (in a 172 so figure that speed) , and sat on the taxiway for 30 minutes trying to troubleshoot the radio problem at a small unattended airport (intermittent bad PTT button I suspect).
So i was in the plane for 2.7 hrs fairly uncomfortable.

Can't wait to go back up.

Only the few who truly love it will 'make' it happen.
 
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I'd say if you're counting on aviation to get cheaper in the future, you're bucking our monetary system.

It never has gotten cheaper in my lifetime and likely never will . . .

I was only talking about used aircraft prices, not aviation as a whole. The one thing the market hasn't seen too much of, is a large volume of aircraft entering the used market in a short period of time. If all of these baby boomers are dying off/hanging it up and selling their aircraft at roughly the same time, it could press the values down significantly. It's tough to command a premium price when there are 50 other aircraft just like yours asking for less. When there are only 5 decent examples, it's much easier to hold out for better offers.

I'm not talking about 50% reductions in value, but it's not unthinkable that we could see 15-20% on high volume models (182s, pa24/28/32s, possibly Bos).

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How are active and inactive defined? I consider myself inactive as it has been a year since I have been on an airport.
Iffen you have a current medical or not.

Thus, you are (I assume) active, whereas I am not - no matter how much I fly.
 
That is and has been my strategy. Cash king who waits to take used toys from "financed millionaires" during the eventual recession, at bigly discounts. That's the way I got my Arrow in 2013 at 40% discount from it's 2005 highest as-sold price, so the scheme has worked out for me at least.

The "financed millionaire" co-owners of the Arrow one by one started falling off the pot in 2008, and by the time the last guy bought them all out, he too was cash strapped and needed liquid to get a hotel property going. He had the benefit of a CRNA wife who was gonna buy him a FIKI Seneca (according to him, I lost touch and don't know if he got it) because they live in MI and wanted to cross the U.P. in the winter for her traveling CRNA gig (make that $$$ girl). At any rate, he was rather plain and candid about this dynamic (very refreshing to be honest), and the sale was made in cash, which was almost a prereq since he was against the clock on his hotel downpayment. Win win for both parties.

I don't need an upgrade, I just want one. I was gonna slap a 540 on the Arrow and call it a day with the "primary non-commercial" part 23 re-write implementation, then the Judases at the FAA pulled that rug from under me forever. So now I wait in the shadows with cash in hand waiting for the next recession to humanely take a Lance away from someone. Don't hate the scavenging bird of prey, we all have a role in this ecosystem... :D
 
The last time we can remember seeing any hangar renter younger than us (and we are in our late 50s) was when we were based in Iowa City, Iowa, prior to 2008.

I'd love to rent a hangar, but Ts are stupid expensive around here. Renting a hangar would literally double my cost of ownership annually, including variable expenses for 100hr/yr.

So, instead, I park outside.
 
- We landed at Janesville, WI on the way to OSH. The last time we landed there was in the early 2000s, and the place was bustling. This time, the tower controller lamented that "no one flew here anymore, except during Oshkosh". The newly remodeled terminal building sits empty and unstaffed (during OSHKOSH!) and the restaurant is long gone. We couldn't even check weather on their computers in the pilots lounge -- they were stuck at the start-up screen.

We landed there Sunday coming and Saturday leaving and it was fully staffed both times. Neither time were we the only folks on the ramp, either. The lady at the desk was telling me how the COPA group had their entire ramp filled just for several days before. On the way out, we spent some time chatting with an Alaskan bush pilot as a couple more aircraft came in for fuel. The Trojan that stayed parked there during the show left me a little confused, though. Why bring a show warbird that close to OSH and not actually bring it all the way in? As of last year, they still reported >100 operations per day. It's not an incredibly high number, but it's not like they're an op an hour or anything.

I like that airport, though. The folks there have always been great.
 
I'd love to rent a hangar, but Ts are stupid expensive around here. Renting a hangar would literally double my cost of ownership annually, including variable expenses for 100hr/yr.

So, instead, I park outside.

Yup, one of the many reasons I told the wife Houston area was out for our relo out of the border. Lots of jobs sure, but boy that place is out of control for Texas COL standards. San Antonio will probably be a more probable landing spot, though the access to GA is significantly more limited than Houston metro. I blame demographics on that one.
 
Yup, one of the many reasons I told the wife Houston area was out for our relo out of the border. Lots of jobs sure, but boy that place is out of control for Texas COL standards. San Antonio will probably be a more probable landing spot, though the access to GA is significantly more limited than Houston metro. I blame demographics on that one.
If you're on the East side, you can get a T for 250, but its 2-3x (and more) that on the West side. Up north, it may be a little cheaper, too, but I don't want a 1 hour drive (sans traffic) to get to my airplane.
 
I am intrigued and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. Whats a 16k grumman look like?
It's ugly but the air doesn't care. It flies just as well as a pretty one and for the money will go another 45 years without a major expense if taken care of.
 
Look at how "portly" folks are today compared to when 152s and Tomahawks were designed.
That's true but most young professionals looking to get their license are still fairly thin. I can fly my grumman with two 200lb people, just have to leave a lot of gas behind. Lol
 
A mass influx of decent aircraft/hangars driving prices down is what I'm hoping for before I dip my toes in the ownership pool. Not good for aircraft values and those who already own, but if there are 60/70 yr olds hanging it up or dying off, there is a high likelihood that their children don't have any interest in flying and will be willing to offload some decent aircraft for a bargain. I give it a decade before we see tangible results on that front.



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You're going to wait ten years before you buy?
 
I'm not sure why 70 y/o folks are singled out, but I fly a lot and I am in the last half of that. One of my airplanes just went to TAP because my wife feels two is enough, and I haven't been flying that one much. Besides, I think I want a T-6. The closest thing I have to a traveling airplane is a Citabria 7GCBC. One issue that hasn't been touched on above is how many GA pilots fly primarily or only for transportation. The airlines are hard to beat for that purpose, and if the need changes they quit flying. It seems to me that not enough people fly for the sheer joy of it. When I was totaling up my log book for my insurance renewal, I was fascinated with how many short flights I make. But in a half hour, I can t/o, climb to altitude, play to my heart's content, do a couple of landings and call it a day. Not unusual to fly 3 -4 times a week. 1/2 Cuban, loop, steep turn, roll, maybe a spin, smile and land.
Ernie
 
IMO he overshot the prognosis for another economic downturn. I put that sucker within the span of the current Administration's term in office.
That would fit historical timing.
 
Aviation need not be expensive. Three guys can buy an $18,000 airplane and have less money invested than a used motorcycle.

The trick is finding two other like-minded guys. I was lucky to do so, and flew an Ercoupe for a few years that cost us virtually nothing but gas.

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I'd have gotten into a plane years earlier if I'd any idea it was possible for a normal person to own one. All I ever heard about was $200,000 Cessnas, so I just assumed it was out of reach. You don't see much about the $16k Grumman at the air shows......

Within two years of my realizing you could get a 4 seat plane that can fly 700 miles on a tank of gas for less than $30k, I had my license and a plane.
 
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I'm a younger guy and I'm all about GA with a plane to prove it ;)

I'd also say GA will only die if we let it, and the one who would kill it is government, and the only way a government (that works for the people) can do that is if we let them.
 
It should be noted in response to the above, that Public Debt to GDP ratio is also a significant indicator and that trajectory isn't great.

We're at roughly 75%. This puts us middle of the pack, but a China is at 22%. China also owns roughly 1/3 of our public debt.

In other words, they're not willing to buy their citizens a particular lifestyle via debt. We are.

That won't be sustainable in the long term. But we're lower than many "western" countries. The U.K. sits around 98% for example.

This also doesn't touch on private debt.

If you don't think China cooks their books like a deep fired wonton, well you probably also believe every thing you read in your fortunate cookies.
 
I was only talking about used aircraft prices, not aviation as a whole. The one thing the market hasn't seen too much of, is a large volume of aircraft entering the used market in a short period of time. If all of these baby boomers are dying off/hanging it up and selling their aircraft at roughly the same time, it could press the values down significantly. It's tough to command a premium price when there are 50 other aircraft just like yours asking for less. When there are only 5 decent examples, it's much easier to hold out for better offers.

I'm not talking about 50% reductions in value, but it's not unthinkable that we could see 15-20% on high volume models (182s, pa24/28/32s, possibly Bos).

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Look at it this way. You're always racing inflation.

If inflation is 3% a year (just pick a number - nobody believes the government one anyway, so 3% works for big picture planning for this post) in nine years, the aircraft, the maintenance, the fuel, everything in aggregate will cost 9% more. Average.

If you wait for ten years for Boomers (or anyone else) to "die off and flood the market with airplanes" what do you suppose the "discount" will be from the "flooding"? 10%?

You saved 1%. And YOU needed a 9% increase in income to just stay right where you were in purchasing power while you waited.

Realistically if your budget today says you need 15% more income to "afford an airplane" you're more likely to own by forcing yourself to live on 15% less NOW or increasing income via a new job or raise, or a combination of both and buying as soon as you can, than waiting around, even doing real well and making that 9% raise and still needing 15% more in your budget to own at the end of nine years.

Dave Ramsey has a phrase he uses when counseling people out of debt who want to save a percent here or a percent there on their debt by shuffling credit cards to new ones and things like that. He says, "It doesn't matter because it doesn't move the needle enough."

Moving the needle enough to afford a single owner aircraft is a big move for a lot of folks. It usually requires a major lifestyle change.

Only way to know for sure is to run your own numbers with your own written budget. Even to join a co-ownership I played with spreadsheets from December to May the year I bought. The spreadsheet always said the same thing. "You can do it but you won't be doing [list of other stuff]."

And then of course that analysis continues after ownership. We want a GPS and are mandated to ADS-B. Both of those items together mean, "You can do it, but you won't be doing other stuff."

You're going to wait ten years before you buy?

Agreed. Make the numbers work or don't, but planning to wait ten years without making a lifestyle change won't work for most people.

That would fit historical timing.

Yup. 11 years. Typical down turn. Administrations have very little effect on it. They try and usually make it worse via Fed manipulation. They've also set the precedent that bailouts are now the only lever they have against them with no more room to move things via Fed games. Being "too big to fail" is sadly now a real business strategy for some.

Once the rules of the game were broken for multiple huge companies to avoid easily predictable failures and pain (GM, AIG), everyone knows the taxpayer is now on the hook for any large business failure. The politicians can't afford to allow companies that big to fail and then after claiming they're the "job creators" (hint: They're not...) have to answer politically for the job losses.
 
Look at it this way. You're always racing inflation.

If inflation is 3% a year (just pick a number - nobody believes the government one anyway, so 3% works for big picture planning for this post) in nine years, the aircraft, the maintenance, the fuel, everything in aggregate will cost 9% more. Average.

You just gave a great reason to finance a plane at 3% right now, instead of waiting and playing the "no debt"-game. Finance at 3%, it's free money.
 
You just gave a great reason to finance a plane at 3% right now, instead of waiting and playing the "no debt"-game. Finance at 3%, it's free money.
Let me know who is offering 3% financing for an airplane loan right now...

Meh, the recession flushes the financed millionaires, and I get their toys in cash.
 
Let me know who is offering 3% financing for an airplane loan right now...

Meh, the recession flushes the financed millionaires, and I get their toys in cash.

3.24% at the moment from Lightstream if you're qualified and don't need a lot of financing. It's actually really easy to beat that rate in the stock market, so it really is a good time to finance a plane!
 
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