After the Grand Illusion ends...

You just gave a great reason to finance a plane at 3% right now, instead of waiting and playing the "no debt"-game. Finance at 3%, it's free money.

Let me know who is offering 3% financing for an airplane loan right now...

Meh, the recession flushes the financed millionaires, and I get their toys in cash.

Usually folks do that with home equity loans. I'm not a fan of putting the house up as collateral for a toy, but it's an option.

3.24% at the moment from Lightstream if you're qualified and don't need a lot of financing. It's actually really easy to beat that rate in the stock market, so it really is a good time to finance a plane!

That's a pretty amazing rate considering they're making only .24% above inflation. Maybe they think they'll make it up in volume? LOL.

Most "toy" loans are running between 5%-8% without collateral protection even for people with excellent credit scores. (Don't get me started on the credit score racket...)

Lenders can't get money from the Fed with loan guarantees for toys. They can for houses.

Doing numbers looking at airplanes as a business expense, borrowing at an effective rate of 3% or so is a great deal. Especially if the business isn't flight instruction. The insurance bump of almost 5x over private insurance, is what kills the business model for flight instruction.

If I had a business need to travel by air, an aircraft loan would be done tomorrow on something capable of the standard mission. The cash flow and depreciation benefits are worth it right now.

Laps in the pattern with students? The numbers switch to at best, break even, unless you have a way to lower insurance or fixed maintenance costs by at least 15% over the typical. In other words, for most of us, that means doing a lot of your own maintenance with a competent and willing A&P and IA.

Or BEING the A&P or IA. (And the break even numbers on THAT are about ten years out.)

Or not taking a salary. Which isn't an option for most. :)

And then the aircraft goes down for maintenance for two months for a part, and the entire year's profit is wiped out.
 
Unless you're getting into it as a career (commercial ops) it's always been an expensive avocation for most middle class folks. I think less people are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to get into GA.
Couldn't agree more. These days, fewer people are interested in GA flying. I'm thinking this is the heart of the matter. Whenever the golden age of aviation was and whenever the public's interest in aviation peaked, it's past. There is no reason I can think of for it ever to be back.

But with that said, it's a wonderful time with fantastic aircraft, leading edge technologies and the freedom to go exercise it to the heart's content whether blowing holes in the sky or traveling across this great continent.

It remains an expensive and often aspirational avocation for most of the middle class but I would submit it no more so than in the past. Probably unreachable for most before the war, increasingly affordable in the post war boom years with many aspects of the pursuit becoming more expensive while other niches becoming more accessible.
The reality is that you have to be middle class, at least, to get into GA.
The bad news is that being middle class in the 21st Century takes a lot more income than it used to. You have to be at least upper middle class today in income to afford what used to be a lower middle class living standard.
"Why is that?" you might ask. (gee, I'm glad you asked that) ...:
One is that the dollar when I was a teenager (1950's) was more muscular back then - a $10 bill in 1950 bought what $102.30 buys today. Think about that for a moment.
I had been flying model airplanes since age 7 or 8 and the bug bit hard. The 2 mentors in my life were avid RC modelers and they led my brother and i as children into what was generally an adult pursuit. I aspired to fly the real thing.

In the mid-60s I can recall leafing through Flying trying to figure out how much money would be required to fly when I was adult. The answer I can up with was a minimum of $12,000/year. Inflation and the gas crisis of the 70s caused panic in my flying dreams but accurate or not, the obsession enabled me to get licensed a year out of college. In the early 80s, a $36,000 salary enabled me to borrow enough to own a glider. I'm thinking here the early 21st century that say $120,000/year would enable some flavor of the dream.

I think that very roughly parallels the 10-fold change between 1950 and now. Is it more or less affordable? I'd say there's been little change, "it's always been an expensive avocation for most middle class folks."

This is as much about the ECONOMY, as anything else, age, distractions, etc. The destruction of the American Middle Class has been, IMO, the largest factor driving the decline. The decline of GA mirrors the middle class decline, to a huge extent.

It is not just aviation, either. You see it across the board, from boating, to Ham Radio, skiing, etc.

The growth of GA In the 60's/70's was driven by Business Aviation. Being able to fly yourself to and from expanded your potential business opportunities. That, and the disposable income of the Middle class, drove aircraft sales, boat sales, RV sales, etc. When the factories started closing down in the mid-70's, in large part due to government regulation, that disposable income started going away. The business people are still flying today, but they are doing it in fractional or on-demand Citations, rather than learning to fly themselves.

What is missing today is that middle class.
The middle class is not missing or has it been destroyed (though certainly disrupted) but the raw allure of aviation has diminished. Business aviation may have been a driver, but the heroics of WWII aviators and their ultimate piston aircraft inspired many GA enthusiasts. Kerosene smoking F4s were exciting but in the 60s, my interest in aviation and electronics was primarily nourished by the bleeding edge expedition into space, starting with Mercury and culminating with Apollo landing on the Moon. I listened to the Moon landing being broadcast on speakers at Willow Grove Naval Air Station during the Model Airplane National Meet (the Nats). Yeah, I was hooked but the top line of aviation had morphed into something called aerospace and the public's interest in mere airplanes would never be the same. How could it?

The same thing has happened to all leisure time pursuits. Flying GA aircraft has diversified into ultralights, homebuilts, gliders, light sport, ballons, 'copters and even strapping jets on your back or base jumping. Boating has expanded into personal watercraft, wave runners, electric, bass boats, cats, etc. Ham radio is a minor niche but electronics hobbyists now have the whole IT field to play in while classic 2 ski downhill now includes boards, pipes, acrobatics and even kites.

It's less about the economy and more about diversity and opportunities. Why are we surprised fewer people are flying SEL aircraft?
The death of GA started when airlines started offering inflight magazines. It is now at a zenith with onboard entertainment choices: passengers at the window seat can't close the shade fast enough so as to aid in electronic viewing. After all, what's to see out the window, what with the Pretty Little Liars I need to catch up on?
I don't know about 'death' but it certainly is a reflection of aviation's glow dimming among the general public.
I flew 151 miles yesterday on my long solo cross country. It was expensive, hot, bumpy, loud, the radio didn't work for part of the trip, no autopilot, did takeoffs/landings at one of the airports, flew slow due to the bumps (in a 172 so figure that speed) , and sat on the taxiway for 30 minutes trying to troubleshoot the radio problem at a small unattended airport (intermittent bad PTT button I suspect).
So i was in the plane for 2.7 hrs fairly uncomfortable.

Can't wait to go back up.

Only the few who truly love it will 'make' it happen.
We shouldn't have an existential problem with the shrinkage of our sport/hobby/pursuit. It's just the natural order of things.

A few years ago I did my first '500K', that's 270NM. I was in a $50K+ aircraft, it was hot, bumpy, not too loud, I didn't talk to anybody and certainly didn't have an autopilot. I finally got airsick and landed in a farmer's field 'aux vaches'. I didn't go straight so barely made 60mph point to point. It took my wife 4 hours to get to me by which time I had bought everyone at the bar multiple rounds of $.25 Yuenglings. But I had plenty of help removing the wings and getting my glider back into the trailer for the ride home. God, I loved every single second... except for the puke.

You know, it's too bad more people don't 'get it'. It sometimes seems that too many people end up with dreary lives and muddle off into mind numbing mediocrity. But many have vivid dreams and by some combination of raw luck and ambition manage to live them out. Those of us that manage to fly are winning... we probably ought to spend more time enjoying that happenstance and less bemoaning some miscast sense loss.
 
So let me chime in here from another angle. I'm in my mid 30s and I started down the road to becoming a pilot in my early 30s.

I had almost zero exposure to aviation as a kid. My dad had owned an airplane before I was born but I never saw it and he had no pictures around. I'd heard a few stories but that's all. We never really were around airports or small planes- I knew basically nothing about it. My only exposure was when we took a few trips on airlines which I did enjoy as a child in the 90s. It was never a case of not having interest, more of a case of just not being in my field of view.

Fast forward to me as a married working adult living far from family and close long time friends. I was making many 5-8 hour trips by car every year often to places not practical to take an airline. I wasn't even thinking about airplanes really, it wasn't in my field of view. Then one day we ended up going to a destination wedding in Jamaica and, although I hated the entire commercial airport experience, I was reminded I actually enjoyed the flight part. When I got home I started using the only resource I had- the internet- to find answers to questions like "are there airplanes I could afford?". I found there indeed were... maybe not the 200kt aerobatic 6 seat twin super cabin cruisers my clueless dreams were pushing me towards but entirely workable 4 seat singles did exist. I found my way onto this board and at that time this was my only true exposure. I had no connections to aviation.... I kinda knew where the local airport was but that's it. I didn't know anyone who did it or anyone who knew someone. Everything I got from the internet.

Actually getting the lessons was not just expensive but hard just to schedule. I could only do nights or weekends because of work and probably only made half of my appointments because of weather not being VFR. In fact IIRC, I didn't even get to do my discovery flight for over a month after I finally made the call because between my schedule, the instructor, and the weather we just couldn't make it work for that long. Because of this very reason it took me something like 2-3 years and I think nearly 90 hours to actually get my private. Sometimes I'd go over a month between lessons because of weather/scheduling. I think if I hadn't already committed to it and bought an airplane at around 30 hours in I probably would have just given up after nearly a year of being told I was "almost ready" then not flying for another month.

After all the time, work, and money invested I only got to use my plane for the purpose I started all this a handful of times. I'd actually quit the job I'd moved so far from home for before I finished my private and ended up moving back home within a year. After all that work and money invested I was determined to get some enjoyment out of it and we do. We destination fly and do $100 hamburgers runs.

So why aren't there more people my age in GA? Well believe me I've tried to recruit people so I'd have some flying buddies. First off, from what little I know, only one of them might be able to get a medical without special issuance. Kidney stones, ADHD, traumatic brain injury(old), ADHD again, and the other guy is afraid to fly. Most of them couldn't afford it period, among the two who might be able to the one who is least likely to pass a medical knows what a money pit it is and won't do it, the other guy would have to make some sacrifices which I'm sure he's not going to make. I don't know who the people buying the $75,000 cars are exactly but nobody I know has that kind of disposable income. I assume the people driving those cars are mostly either deeply in debt or unusually successful. One of my friends was actually interested... then I told him what it would cost to get a cheap airplane(like $20-30k 2-seat cessna/piper types). He immediately backed away realizing he couldn't afford anything like that.... ironically he is in the Air Force.

Oh and the exposure thing goes with that. Not counting POA, the CFIs I worked with, and people I've met at the airport while doing stuff with my plane I'm the only pilot I know. Sure would be nice to have someone I knew well enough to partner with to split some of the costs of ownership.

Also once you're interested there's the time! Most people my age work and don't get a lot of vacation time. If I wasn't self employed and able to dictate my own schedule I'd never be able to take the trips I have. When you only get 10 days off/year and you can't be sure you'll leave within 48 hours of when you want to or get back within 48 hours of when you want... well that's a problem. Actually being a pilot- getting the certificate, getting the airplane, etc is a huge chore in and of it's self and then actually using the thing is always a giant inconvenient pile of frustration and cash. You have to really really like doing it or be so deep in that you pretty much have to keep going to put up with all of it.

IDK if that's helpful but it's the truth of the matter as best I see it.
 
I've seen lots of threads like these over the years. Not sure we can add more to the reality here. Personally, I believe the issue is flying is not "in". So "average people" won't spend the extra time/money/effort to partake.

Essentially GA is dived into at least three major parts:
- The hobby fliers looking to pay no more than we can basically throw away. That number varies a lot for each of us.
- Business users. And that number varies even more by the size of the business. And the economic calculus is different.
- The cottage industry of GA supporting the above two groups.

I fly a 1949 A35 because I need something to do on the weekend to keep me from working all the time and I can afford the airplane. Every so often, I get someone else suckered into this crazy flying thing. Hopefully in 5-10 years I can slow down a bit and then possibly get something "newish" with a little more speed to use for business. But that requires a re-thinking of how the business runs and (so far) it has been a pipe dream - especially with the airlines doing such a good job for cut-rate fees. (I'll have to jump to a turbo prop to fulfill business needs - yes the airlines are cheap in comparison!) I know others that have made it happen - so who knows.

GA isn't likely to die - there are just too many of us that are still interested in making it happen. But I don't see GA being like "the good old days" - whenever that was ...


By the way - my wife and I have been talking about going to that island hotel of yours. Hobby flying == mini vacation crowd.
 
I watch a lot of these sky is falling threads. One thing I realize is that perceptions are generational.


a92e756afe47e4d046a8a3ac99eddaf2.jpg


In the end, Jay is part of the golden age of GA. I was born in 1973. One of the smallest generations in recorded history. There's going to be shrinkage (yes, I said it.) before there is growth. The generation before mine is 13% larger and the generation after is 20ish% larger.

The challenge for my generation is to maintain the status quo, proportionally, for a larger population pool before us and after us. Bridging the gap, so to speak.

I haven't taken the time to do the ratios in the relevant population pools, but I would guess that my generation isn't doing a good job of maintaining the status quo. What that's attributable to, and why is up for debate.
 
You're going to wait ten years before you buy?

Well, I don't rent enough to justify ownership right now, so it won't make any less sense to wait 10 years for recessions and baby boomer retirements.

Financially, we're solidly middle class, have a boat, jet ski, and 3 late-model (10 yr old or less) vehicles with no debt on any of them. We are able to cover all mortgage, utilities, recurring bills on half of my monthly income. Wife's paycheck only goes toward daycare, so we are able to save a good bit each month. We could go out and finance an aircraft without a ton of heartache, but it's not where I want to spend the money right now. I'm also really short on time between work, home projects, and a 1yr old. 10 years should work out fine for me, and with any luck, a recession and influx of available used aircraft will be used to my advantage.


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3.24% at the moment from Lightstream if you're qualified and don't need a lot of financing. It's actually really easy to beat that rate in the stock market, so it really is a good time to finance a plane!

Actually it's not just a matter of how much financing - it's also the term. So it's 3.24% for 24 months. Which isn't a terribly good deal.
 
Actually it's not just a matter of how much financing - it's also the term. So it's 3.24% for 24 months. Which isn't a terribly good deal.

Still, easy to beat that in the stock market, and not too far off Nate's number of inflation. Free money.
 
I'm a younger guy and I'm all about GA with a plane to prove it ;)

I'd also say GA will only die if we let it, and the one who would kill it is government, and the only way a government (that works for the people) can do that is if we let them.
Unfortunately we have reached a point where government believes and behaves as though they lord over the citizens, and a majority of citizens think that is the normal state of affairs (e.g, our rights are "granted" by the benevolence of the government.)
 
Actually it's not just a matter of how much financing - it's also the term. So it's 3.24% for 24 months. Which isn't a terribly good deal.

Still, easy to beat that in the stock market, and not too far off Nate's number of inflation. Free money.

Ahh that explains it. Most folk don't have the cash flow to pay off an aircraft in 24 months. If they do, a free loan for 24 months is probably not "moving the needle" either way for them.

I'd lend money to them for pennies on the dollar return for it, too. ;) They're good for it.
 
I haven't taken the time to do the ratios in the relevant population pools, but I would guess that my generation isn't doing a good job of maintaining the status quo. What that's attributable to, and why is up for debate.

I'm not sure what ratios you would want to look at, but since 1971 the "middle class" has actually grown significantly and widened considerably when looked at on a "percentage of adults in the U.S." basis.

Much of the "horror" of "the shrinking middle class" rhetoric that is pushed requires one be "shocked" at the growth of the very far right of this graph.

But the reality is, the middle class is actually bigger and wider than it's ever been.

https://m.imgur.com/r/gifs/a2BEHjL

If "status quo" is somehow going after the folks on the far right of the graph, I'm not really interested. Mainly because I don't see their prosperity as a threat to anyone in the middle or lower classes.

It's interesting and impressive that the far right has grown that much, but it hasn't truly harmed the vast majority of adults in any generation since I was born around the start of the graph.

I first learned of this when I went searching to see if economies tend to follow bell curves. What I learned is that they don't. Almost never in fact. Doesn't matter much how large or small you make the number of data points, there's always a bulge on the almost far left but not up against the axis, and a peak on the far right that screams upward today but didn't 40 years ago.

But for the vast majority of us in the middle, things are trending better, not worse. The graph has flattened considerably on the left side and slowly squished right. It's kinda like pushing jello uphill but it's not moving the wrong direction for most of us.

So... I'm not sure what you mean by Gen X not "maintaining the status quo". Do you think we'll let all the squish toward the right rebound backward into a huge mountain at the left? Because politically that's insanely unpopular amongst Gen X and Millenials both. Nobody wants more desperately poor people and the numbers of folks in the middle who have a little bit more disposable income who say they can take a pay cut and work more for a "Dream" than a "Job" is fairly high.

There's a number of folks here who work for or have spouses who work for organizations who's sociological and economic goals would be "ridiculously pie in the sky" in 1971.

What I'd really like to see overlaid on this time lapse graph is the personal debt load numbers as the middle class squished rightward. I bet it grew much faster than the squish. Aversion to debt dropped significantly in this timeframe. And it literally eats the disposable income possible in the right half of the graph. It also seems that the folks on the far far right figured that lack of aversion out, which is what grew that far right stack so quickly. A little interest money from everyone to the left piles up VERY quickly on the far right.
 
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Several good points here. Rental's have gotten so expensive because everyone feels they need a 172 or larger to teach in. I hardly ever see a 152, Tomahawk, etc... for rent anymore much less a cheap tail dragger (thanks insurance industry)...

Couple of years ago our local club sold the two fairly new, gee-whiz but "brittle" Diamond DA20-C1s which spent more time in the shop than they did on the line, and replaced them with two good looking, mechanically sound and far more simple & reliable Cessna 152s. So far that has proved a successful trade.
 
...Only way to know for sure is to run your own numbers with your own written budget. Even to join a co-ownership I played with spreadsheets from December to May the year I bought. The spreadsheet always said the same thing. "You can do it but you won't be doing [list of other stuff]."

And then of course that analysis continues after ownership. We want a GPS and are mandated to ADS-B. Both of those items together mean, "You can do it, but you won't be doing other stuff."...

Boy, that sounds familiar!

Another important factor is time. Aviation is much more time consuming than some other pastimes. It's a lot easier and faster to pull the motorcycle out of the garage and go for a burger run, than in the plane.

Life for most of us is more complex, and in many ways less predictable/more uncertain than it was for our parents (maybe every generation says that :D ). That all comes out of the discretionary time available for any hobbies.
 
I'm not sure what ratios you would want to look at, but since 1971 the "middle class" has actually grown significantly and widened considerably when looked at on a "percentage of adults in the U.S." basis.

.

I would probably take a look at several things, but primarily student certificates year by year against population year by year. Starting when each group would have become eligible for a student certificate.

It's not exact, but it might help understand some things better.

Trying to find causal factors for generational preferences/activities is really a challenging thing to do.

Really, just look at the 600-900 reasons why the most recent generation isn't doing X at the rate the previous generation did.



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I'm not sure what ratios you would want to look at, but since 1971 the "middle class" has actually grown significantly and widened considerably when looked at on a "percentage of adults in the U.S." basis.

Much of the "horror" of "the shrinking middle class" rhetoric that is pushed requires one be "shocked" at the growth of the very far right of this graph.

But the reality is, the middle class is actually bigger and wider than it's ever been.

https://m.imgur.com/r/gifs/a2BEHjL

If "status quo" is somehow going after the folks on the far right of the graph, I'm not really interested. Mainly because I don't see their prosperity as a threat to anyone in the middle or lower classes.

It's interesting and impressive that the far right has grown that much, but it hasn't truly harmed the vast majority of adults in any generation since I was born around the start of the graph.

I first learned of this when I went searching to see if economies tend to follow bell curves. What I learned is that they don't. Almost never in fact. Doesn't matter much how large or small you make the number of data points, there's always a bulge on the almost far left but not up against the axis, and a peak on the far right that screams upward today but didn't 40 years ago.

But for the vast majority of us in the middle, things are trending better, not worse. The graph has flattened considerably on the left side and slowly squished right. It's kinda like pushing jello uphill but it's not moving the wrong direction for most of us.

So... I'm not sure what you mean by Gen X not "maintaining the status quo". Do you think we'll let all the squish toward the right rebound backward into a huge mountain at the left? Because politically that's insanely unpopular amongst Gen X and Millenials both. Nobody wants more desperately poor people and the numbers of folks in the middle who have a little bit more disposable income who say they can take a pay cut and work more for a "Dream" than a "Job" is fairly high.

There's a number of folks here who work for or have spouses who work for organizations who's sociological and economic goals would be "ridiculously pie in the sky" in 1971.

What I'd really like to see overlaid on this time lapse graph is the personal debt load numbers as the middle class squished rightward. I bet it grew much faster than the squish. Aversion to debt dropped significantly in this timeframe. And it literally eats the disposable income possible in the right half of the graph. It also seems that the folks on the far far right figured that lack of aversion out, which is what grew that far right stack so quickly. A little interest money from everyone to the left piles up VERY quickly on the far right.
I'd like to see that graph correlated and normalized for population age. Baby boomers are hitting peak earning years as curve is flattening.
 
I'd like to see that graph correlated and normalized for population age. Baby boomers are hitting peak earning years as curve is flattening.

So are you saying the generation behind the Boomers will take pay cuts?
 
We shouldn't have an existential problem with the shrinkage of our sport/hobby/pursuit. It's just the natural order of things.

"Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light..."

I refuse to believe that something as amazing, grand, exciting, and rewarding as General Aviation is dying because of the "natural order of things"...

We know the problems. We need to find solutions.
 
I think @Bill Watson's explanation is most of what you're seeing, there are lots of people who could afford to fly that are just not interested.

I also think much of this depends where you are. Much of what you're seeing in the less populated areas is that the better paying jobs, those that could support a GA lifestyle, are increasingly concentrated in the cities. I'm in the Atlanta metro area, and if you go to PDK or RYY, you find a very active GA presence, and fairly busy flight schools, but if you get a little farther away from the city, it seems like few have rentals or training.
 
I think @Bill Watson's explanation is most of what you're seeing, there are lots of people who could afford to fly that are just not interested.

I also think much of this depends where you are. Much of what you're seeing in the less populated areas is that the better paying jobs, those that could support a GA lifestyle, are increasingly concentrated in the cities. I'm in the Atlanta metro area, and if you go to PDK or RYY, you find a very active GA presence, and fairly busy flight schools, but if you get a little farther away from the city, it seems like few have rentals or training.

The thing about places like Atlanta is that storage costs are a non-starter for many people who otherwise can afford it at more reasonable storage rates. It really isn't an inconsequential shift. We're talking about doubling of-all in yearly costs, just because of parking. I love my hobby as much as the next guy, but even I consider that a reason to exit stage. Furthermore, even though I'm not one to necessarily exit stage due to lack of hangar *availability (*include affordability in that definition as well), most people do consider a hangar a prereq to ownership, which exacerbates the "disinterest" problem.

upload_2017-8-7_12-37-36.png
 
my story is somewhat similar. i'm 43, had my PPL for one year. Rented and hten joined a club. I could have saved a lot of money by buying, but I have other obligations that will put off purchase for 2-3 years.

For now, i'm in a club, but i'd really like to buy...

DW and I both work at full time jobs in "management" type jobs. two kids about to enter kindy this month AND, while we make a good income, daycare, mortgage, etc is just a LOT of money.

we have no debt besides our houses, but between saving for your own retirement (no pension or SS) and doing everything else, even our top 5% income seems pretty thin some months.

I'd buy a plane this month, however, if we weren't about to build a larger house. admittedly, this is a choice i'm making (along with DW) that is putting off ownership a bit, but I plan to keep flying during this time, I just can't tie up the purchase price plus maint/insurance right now when I need all of our savings to build the house.

as soon as the house is done, I do intend to buy though. perhaps they'll be another recession at that time, and prices may be even a bit more favorable?


Well, I don't rent enough to justify ownership right now, so it won't make any less sense to wait 10 years for recessions and baby boomer retirements.

Financially, we're solidly middle class, have a boat, jet ski, and 3 late-model (10 yr old or less) vehicles with no debt on any of them. We are able to cover all mortgage, utilities, recurring bills on half of my monthly income. Wife's paycheck only goes toward daycare, so we are able to save a good bit each month. We could go out and finance an aircraft without a ton of heartache, but it's not where I want to spend the money right now. I'm also really short on time between work, home projects, and a 1yr old. 10 years should work out fine for me, and with any luck, a recession and influx of available used aircraft will be used to my advantage.


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my s
 
The thing about places like Atlanta is that storage costs are a non-starter for many people who otherwise can afford it at more reasonable storage rates. It really isn't an inconsequential shift. We're talking about doubling of-all in yearly costs, just because of parking. I love my hobby as much as the next guy, but even I consider that a reason to exit stage. Furthermore, even though I'm not one to necessarily exit stage due to lack of hangar *availability (*include affordability in that definition as well), most people do consider a hangar a prereq to ownership, which exacerbates the "disinterest" problem.

View attachment 55434
yes, hangaring would be almost my largest expense to owning, besides fuel, and that's for a TWIN. Here's what my numbers would look like

assumes 100 hrs/flight
MX =5K
Hangar = 450/month * 12 = $5,400
Fuel: 20GPH*100*$5 = $10,000
Insurance: $3,400
Oil changes/subscriptions, registration, etc $1,000

And remember, the only variable of this is the $10,000 in Avgas. It's the fixed costs that make owning really tough, especially in metro areas on the coast. Partnership would solve a lot of this, but I'm not 100% convinced I want partners. (In a club now, and while it works great and the people are great, I kinda want to just get in my plane and go, without arranging it with anyone).
 
So, there's not much most of us here can do about the high costs of airplanes nor the wages average people make. I will point out that, adjust for inflation, a new 172 costs about 4x what they did when they first were available for sale and that's not a small issue. Of course, most of us are buying 20-40 year old planes that cost what a 172 used to new adjusted for inflation.... which blows but hey at least you can get one.

What you can do is talk about it, share photos on your social media accounts, give people rides, and provide guidance to anyone who who is interested in learning. Sure, most people are aware of airplanes but it isn't on most people's radar as a think that they could potentially go do. Make them aware that it is.
 
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The link you posted shows the middle class shrinking, the super wealthy increasing dramatically and the poor increasing.

Sorry, it doesn't.

It shows the majority of the poor decreasing significantly other than the very poorest.

The middle class is roughly the same numbers but roughly half became significantly more wealthy and pushed toward the right.

And the ultra wealthy got more ultrawealthy and there's significantly more of them.

Many of the middle class joined the ultra wealthy, unlike the rhetoric that says an elite few are ultra wealthy, considering the massive gains in the number of ultra wealthy.

Remember the bars are *percentage* of adults. Not fixed numbers.
 
I think it depends on what is important to you. Could most of my colleagues effort a plane? Yes - if you just look at their income. But than the house, car(s), ... and whatever else they want to spend their money on gets into the way of getting the PPL or owning their own plane. Also, most find our hobby interesting but that's it. I can share as many pictures and stories as I want (and you can be sure that I do! :):D), I will not get them interested enough to spend their money on flying...
 
The American dream:
- BIG HOUSE
- 2.5 kids
- 2+ cars less than 5 years old
- Golf clubs and membership to the local course
- Socker for the kids
- Baseball
- Football
- Music lessons
- Family ski vacation in the winter
- Family cruise in the summer
- Dinner every noon and night at a restaurant due to not having time to actually cook!
- (list too long - snip)

How the **** does anyone have any money or time left!!
 
"Do not go gentle into that good night, Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light..."

I refuse to believe that something as amazing, grand, exciting, and rewarding as General Aviation is dying because of the "natural order of things"...

We know the problems. We need to find solutions.

Ha! I like the sentiment but... no one that knows me would suggest I'm going gently into that good night.

It's shrinking but getting better and richer, as so many other extreme and not so extreme pursuits are. Definitely not dying.

You found your vehicle for raging against the dying light in the form of an RV8 as I recall. No certified craft would scratch that itch at that price point or level of whoppee.

I found my vehicle in an OBAM RV10 that serves as our magic carpet to come and go where and when we please. It would have required onboard radar and an inertial guidance system in days past but I've been able to get similar capabilities from a mix of certified and uncertified avionics, governmental meddling in the form of a GPS network supporting all weather ops at innumerable public airports, and that GD ADSB stuff with all that redundant traffic information. It so sucks.

The dream of an airplane in every driveway has always proved to be a mirage, but the dream of reliable all weather personal transportation by car-like SEL aircraft has come true. And that's just one of several GA dreams that have come true despite the fact that it isn't and never has been for 'everyone'.

Sadly, participation in low end GA may never fill a network of airport based hotels or make my grass strip Airpark home carry the premium I think it deserves, but opportunities abound for a bevy of talented engineers to make a few bucks from this ever advancing hobby/sport and even occasionally breakout to make a small fortune competing with the industry's giants.

But I'm a bit of an optimist.


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The American dream:
- BIG HOUSE
- 2.5 kids
- 2+ cars less than 5 years old
- Golf clubs and membership to the local course
- Socker for the kids
- Baseball
- Football
- Music lessons
- Family ski vacation in the winter
- Family cruise in the summer
- Dinner every noon and night at a restaurant due to not having time to actually cook!
- (list too long - snip)

How the **** does anyone have any money or time left!!

An alternative dream
- smaller high quality home built from a kit rather than a LCD contractor
- 0-1 kids
- 1995 Minivan for hauling peeps and recyclables and a 2004 Miata for the mileage, to be upgraded every 10-15 years
- golf, soccer, baseball, football on cable
- Exotic and unique adult themed holidays (see minimal kiddage)
- small town low cost lifestyle that's attractive because there's an airplane in the backyard to get away from it 'all'

We have the freedom to both dream and to live them, no?


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- Marketing is key. My relatively recent entry into the classic car and hot rod world has exposed me to many more young people. The number of guys with $75,000 cars is mind boggling -- and NONE of them believe me when I tell them that they can buy a perfectly wonderful 4-seat airplane for less.

Why is that? Because GA has done a simply terrible job of marketing itself.

I can see your point about the marketing issue, look at all the gadgetry, bells and whistles that $75k buys in car combined with easy financing. Compare that to a 40 year old steam gauge airplane...not exciting. Another thing to consider is the "Hassle to Fun Ratio".

Consider the barriers to entry into aviation compared to the barriers to entry for hot rod/sports car ownership. Anyone who can plop down $75k for a car/boat, can get a car or boat with very little hassle. Go to the DMV every once in awhile and fog a mirror read some letters with or without glasses and done! Same with a boat unless you get really deep into yachting etc...and you can do more stuff with them.

While $75k would buy a really good aircraft in today's market it is the tip of the iceberg. When someone who is interested in flying with little or no background in aviation investigates flying they get hit with: Initial training costs,flight physicals, continuing education, BFRs, annuals, additional ratings to make travel useful etc, also consider the social aspect of aviation you are generally up there alone... The Hassle to Fun Ratio drops significantly.

When you start looking at it from a hassle to fun ratio aviation isn't that appealing to the masses as hot rods or boats.
 
And the romance is gone for most folks. Pilots were heroes in the 1910's-1960's. From WWI aces to barnstormers to air racers to WWII aces to the speed record setters to the astronauts. Children grew up wanting to be pilots. Then pilots became baby killers, bus drivers and rich old white guys. Kids today grow up wanting to be music stars, reality stars, sports stars (OK, that didn't change) and, maybe, tech pioneers like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos. Pilots? Who are they?

John
 
I can see your point about the marketing issue, look at all the gadgetry, bells and whistles that $75k buys in car combined with easy financing. Compare that to a 40 year old steam gauge airplane...not exciting. Another thing to consider is the "Hassle to Fun Ratio".

Consider the barriers to entry into aviation compared to the barriers to entry for hot rod/sports car ownership. Anyone who can plop down $75k for a car/boat, can get a car or boat with very little hassle. Go to the DMV every once in awhile and fog a mirror read some letters with or without glasses and done! Same with a boat unless you get really deep into yachting etc...and you can do more stuff with them.

While $75k would buy a really good aircraft in today's market it is the tip of the iceberg. When someone who is interested in flying with little or no background in aviation investigates flying they get hit with: Initial training costs,flight physicals, continuing education, BFRs, annuals, additional ratings to make travel useful etc, also consider the social aspect of aviation you are generally up there alone... The Hassle to Fun Ratio drops significantly.

When you start looking at it from a hassle to fun ratio aviation isn't that appealing to the masses as hot rods or boats.

What's scary is that we can now see what an aircraft in every flyway would look like (making the unreal assumption that it could hit the $75k price point.

- It wouldn't have a parachute (just to get your mind right)

- it would be electric

- It would be robotically operated and impossible to stall, hit anything or hurt anyone

- Operation would require skills equivalent to an early 21st century car driver.... who opted to take an Uber instead.

- A wide range of variations would be offered from high speed long distance family transports like the ever popular retro Bonanzi, to the urban cruising low flyers loved by the kids.

- Though illegal, hacker birds abound. Not content with legal accessories, hacked birds can go faster, hover lower, turn sharper, and 'frottage' with compatibly hacked units. They've even been known to tap into the power grid for free! They WILL be driven out of the community.

- Of course there is still an aging group of old school 'stick and rudder' pilots that continue to hand fly their robot-less flivvers out in the desert. They get together once a year in WI along with the rest of the personal aircraft community for a week of peace, love, and commerce. They takeover the old "can't do 90 knots" approach corridor using special regulations to circumvent the robot-only airspace that has become so pervasive. It's widely understood that they have hacked robopilots onboard to make their long trips palatable. A pretty cool bunch of folks nonetheless!

However, in these tough times, too many citizens are stuck using the ubiquitous, well worn tUbers. With minimal HazMat protection they continue to give the general public access to anywhere/allthetime transportation until they too achieve the American Dream.




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And the romance is gone for most folks. Pilots were heroes in the 1910's-1960's. From WWI aces to barnstormers to air racers to WWII aces to the speed record setters to the astronauts. Children grew up wanting to be pilots. Then pilots became baby killers, bus drivers and rich old white guys. Kids today grow up wanting to be music stars, reality stars, sports stars (OK, that didn't change) and, maybe, tech pioneers like Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos. Pilots? Who are they?

John

The real solution to open up air travel to "everyone" turned out to be the Boeing 737/Airbus A320 and Herb Kelleher, Christopher & Tony Ryan, Michael O'Leary and Stelios Haji-Ioannou, not a Cessna or a Piper. It remains that way today despite the hassles and costs of getting to, and through, the airport.

To truly use aviation as a business tool required capabilities far beyond a 195 "Businessliner" - all-weather capable jets and turboprops, professional trained pilots, corporate aviation departments that have the capability of managing the operational and maintenance demands. Sure there are exceptions, some successful small business owners, but increasingly I note they are using single engine turboprops and small jets such as the Cessna Mustang & Phenom 100 too. The Cirrusjet is going to move that needle another bit up that scale and away from the high performance piston fleet.

At the other end of the scale, recreational aviation seems to be thriving, whether that be the proliferation of LSAs, Van's RVs, experimental electric planes or some of the interesting stuff I saw in the ultra-light area at OSH.

But it can't support the production of near million$ Mooneys, Bonanzas or SR-22s. When the "best selling" new piston aircraft manufacturer sells 300 odd new planes a year, and some here breathlessly declare that a roaring success, you know this is a cottage industry in serious trouble. All of us here flying decades old planes are scavenging parts from wrecks (either directly or through our mechanics) to keep our birds in the air. Almost certain the overwhelming majority of us will never purchase a similarly capable new airplane, ever.

The bi-furcation going on in aviation will continue. What used to be the heart of the industry, 4 to 6 place piston singles and light twins, will continue to whither as fewer expensive new airplanes are sold and attrition reduces the fleet. Remote jurisdictions such as Alaska or the Yukon, where the utility of an airplane is still valuable, will continue to support the single piston on floats or flotations, but they are slowly getting squeezed out and disappearing elsewhere. My "next" airplane could well turn out to be an RV-8.
 
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Rental's have gotten so expensive because everyone feels they need a 172 or larger to teach in. I hardly ever see a 152, Tomahawk, etc... for rent anymore much less a cheap tail dragger (thanks insurance industry).

The operating cost difference between C150M and say a C172M are almost nil. The tires, brakes, oil filters, alternators, magnetos, spark plugs, ELT batteries, light bulbs, almost all the consumables are virtually identical. Hangar expenses, transponder inspections, static system altimeter inspections won't be any different either. The annual inspection costs should be almost identical. The 172M holds another couple quarts of oil, burns on average a couple gallons of gas more. The 172 can comfortably be rented for other things and not just primary training.

Everyone has figured out that the 150/152/Tomahawks aren't as practical as the entry level 4 seat Cessnas and Pipers. I had a C150B for about 5 years and would love to have another, but for the costs it ain't happening (A&P IA here so even with free labor I'm not really interested).
 
Sorry, it doesn't.

It shows the majority of the poor decreasing significantly other than the very poorest.

The middle class is roughly the same numbers but roughly half became significantly more wealthy and pushed toward the right.

Well, one of us is reading that graph wrong then. Here's what that organization says in words.

"Over the same period, however, the nation’s aggregate household income has substantially shifted from middle-income to upper-income households, driven by the growing size of the upper-income tier and more rapid gains in income at the top. Fully 49% of U.S. aggregate income went to upper-income households in 2014, up from 29% in 1970. The share accruing to middle-income households was 43% in 2014, down substantially from 62% in 1970"

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/the-american-middle-class-is-losing-ground/
 
Well, one of us is reading that graph wrong then. Here's what that organization says in words.

"Over the same period, however, the nation’s aggregate household income has substantially shifted from middle-income to upper-income households, driven by the growing size of the upper-income tier and more rapid gains in income at the top. Fully 49% of U.S. aggregate income went to upper-income households in 2014, up from 29% in 1970. The share accruing to middle-income households was 43% in 2014, down substantially from 62% in 1970"

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/the-american-middle-class-is-losing-ground/

Yeah, ok, but that's also happening in part because the upper classes has expanded from 14% of the population to 21% of the population.
upload_2017-8-8_7-12-50.png

So not sure that it's really a valid complaint. I guess it's valid to complain that the lowest class has increased by 4%, but not that 7% of the middle class has absconded to the upper class.

That's like complaining when you're making so much money that you get into the next tax bracket.
 
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