ADSB Out: What Happens If You Don't Comply?

Sinistar

Sinistar

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In reading 14.CR.91.225 I see no penalties or consequences for not complying. We are now equipped so this isn't me trying to get around it. Rather, just curious on what they (FAA) would actually do? How about a scenario.

Joe Pilot decides to not equip his Cherokee. It was manufactured with a electrical system and currently has a mode C transponder but no ADSB out equipment. His departure point is a uncontrolled airport 50 miles away from a busy Bravo so he's starting outside the Mode C veil. He then flies VFR to a uncontrolled airport under the Bravo. He never enters the Bravo during his flight so no deviation there. He does not use Flight Following. He is just talking on the local unicomm (eg 122.9). A few hours later he flies back home again.

Who will "bust" him if he's not talking to ATC? Will he just get a letter or phone call from the FSDO directed to the registered owner? Since he's not going to a towered airport under the Bravo it seems to not fall on them. So then is it App/Dep that would see this. It is my understanding they don't even know about ADSB. And since he's not equipped his info isn't being sent into the ADSB ground based towers either

So which part of 14.CFR gives the FAA the authority to suspend and/or revoke priviledges. I didn't see it under 14.CFR.61 but maybe I just missed it. Is this what they would use to bust the person flying in ADSB out airspace without being properly equipped?

Seems like a person would be able to fly un-equipped under the Bravo's and Charlies and the only time they'll get busted is for doing something else wrong and this shows up too.
 
Maybe when an FAA inspector walks up to the plane for a ramp check at airport under the mode C veil and notices that old KT76A in the panel.

Or when an FAA inspector calls the FBO asking for the tail number of the plane taxiing in.
 
ATC will notice the target on their radar and will know it isn't in compliance. Lots of things they can do to find out. Then again, maybe folks will skate, I dunno. The only thing I do know is the FAA takes a very dim view of intentional rule breaking. I suspect if folks are found to be in noncompliance the consequences will be dire.
 
Clip4 said:
Maybe when an FAA inspector walks up to the plane for a ramp check at airport under the mode C veil and notices that old KT76A in the panel.

Or when an FAA inspector calls the FBO asking for the tail number of the plane taxiing in.
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I could see them figuring out something here. What if they had a ADSB in portable and asked you to turn on the equipment.

I guess I was curious along the lines of will they detect you during flight?
 
steingar said:
ATC will notice the target on their radar and will know it isn't in compliance. Lots of things they can do to find out. Then again, maybe folks will skate, I dunno. The only thing I do know is the FAA takes a very dim view of intentional rule breaking. I suspect if folks are found to be in noncompliance the consequences will be dire.
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There are a few other threads where people have been asking ATC to verify their new ADSB install and we are told that they know nothing about it and its not their responsibility. Not sure if that is right? If so they probably wouldn't be jotting down hex codes and looking up registrations.
 
Sinistar said:
I could see them figuring out something here. What if they had a ADSB in portable and asked you to turn on the equipment.

I guess I was curious along the lines of will they detect you during flight?
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I believe they could detect you without a transponder under the veil.
 
Clip4 said:
I believe they could detect you without a transponder under the veil.
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Only way to get you then is to call or have someone at the destination airport report the tail number but hopefully it isn't mixed up with another plane in the pattern just ahead or behind the miscreant :)
 
Same consequences for any other bust like flying into the bravo without communicating or not having a mode c transponder.

Guy got busted here recently, faa called up the airport manager and asked who was flying two three nights a week in the evenings as they were in the veil with their transponder off. Airport manager gave him the tail number and faa gave him a visit.
 
This is no different than "What happens if I fly into a Mode C veil area without a transponder?" or "What happens if I bust Class B in my NORDO Piper Cub?" If the FAA cares enough, they'll track you until you land and try to get someone over there to get your tail number. But sometimes, nothing will happen.
 
Sinistar said:
There are a few other threads where people have been asking ATC to verify their new ADSB install and we are told that they know nothing about it and its not their responsibility. Not sure if that is right? If so they probably wouldn't be jotting down hex codes and looking up registrations.
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A small tower, sure but center / approach knows if you’re equipped or not. Non ADS-B shows up as a solid circle next to your tag on the scope. That being said, all depends if the controller has time or even cares about reporting it.
 
Salty said:
And skybeacon.
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Yes. More obvious though. Actually, for the completely far fetched ADSB out compliance via visual inspection Skybeacon should win hands down!
 
Velocity173 said:
A small tower, sure but center / approach knows if you’re equipped or not. Non ADS-B shows up as a solid circle next to your tag on the scope. That being said, all depends if the controller has time or even cares about reporting it.
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So App/Dep/Center can tell if you are ADSB equipped. I didn't think that was the case - thanks for clarifying!
 
Clip4 said:
I believe they could detect you without a transponder under the veil.
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They can - depending on distance, altitude, terrain.

Jim_R said:
This is no different than "What happens if I fly into a Mode C veil area without a transponder?"
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Which, if you are in your no-electric Cub, is nothing. :)
 
Sinistar said:
So which part of 14.CFR gives the FAA the authority to suspend and/or revoke priviledges.
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FAR 13 provides the regulatory authority and Order 2150.3 provides the details. It's a bit more than these references but this is the easy answer.
 
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Practically speaking I imagine if you go to an uncontrolled field you can just turn the transponder off and nobody will notice.

I would personally rather not run the risk. Just stay outside of mode C required areas until you can get it done. I know for some that’s impossible but I could do it rather easily by just avoiding the 1/10 destinations I go to where it would be a factor.

That said people are finding long waits to get the work actually done. I wish they’d at least grant an extension on the deadline for people who are on the waiting list cash in hand but can’t get it installed yet.
 
Sinistar said:
So App/Dep/Center can tell if you are ADSB equipped. I didn't think that was the case - thanks for clarifying!
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Correct, solid circle attached to the tag for non ADS-B. If ADS-B equipped and it fails, they get a hollow circle and “ADB” in the remarks. They’re then required to inform the pilot that it appears their ADS-B is inop.
 
Velocity173 said:
Correct, solid circle attached to the tag for non ADS-B. If ADS-B equipped and it fails, they get a hollow circle and “ADB” in the remarks. They’re then required to inform the pilot that it appears their ADS-B is inop.
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Wow, so anyone with a mode C transponder will be rather easy to spot. Same goes for no transponder if terrain, etc allows to see it.

So for someone doing their initial ADSB install checkout (eg. very first flight) wouldn't it be okay to just ask App/Dep/Center for their ADSB status?
 
WannFly said:
so in other words ... @Sinistar .. i have to spend that money.. thanks for rubbing it in
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Not trying to rub it in, sorry about that. Isn't the TRSA exempt? Ahhh, its your love of flying in Bravo's and Charlies that have you worried :)
 
Sinistar said:
Wow, so anyone with a mode C transponder will be rather easy to spot. Same goes for no transponder if terrain, etc allows to see it.

So for someone doing their initial ADSB install checkout (eg. very first flight) wouldn't it be okay to just ask App/Dep/Center for their ADSB status?
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Sure, not only that if not in anonymous they can get your ID from just a 1200 squawk. If you don’t have a transponder they can see you as a primary target but it all depends on if they believe it’s a valid target. They still get plenty of ghost targets that they don’t track. If they’re bored out of their minds I suppose they’d follow a primary.

Your question really is similar to aircraft operating in airspace that requires a mode C but isn’t equipped. The only ones who can report you is ATC. Right now I’ve heard they’ve got no directive to report violators. Plenty of time to put out a policy letter on the subject before 2020 though. Personally, if they don’t get a policy on it, I don’t think ATC will really care. As of right now, ADS-B hasn’t reduced radar seperation criteria so on their end, it doesn’t matter. So far, it’s really only been useful in the Gulf / oceanic and areas that were previously non radar.
 
Well we in ATC have just gotten word about that and what we need to do. I'm not really supposed to but (looks around and whispers) I'll share it with you.

First offense you get a demerit.
Three of those and you get a citation.
Five citations and you're looking at a violation.
Four of those and you get a written warning.
Two of those will land you in a world of hurt in the form of a disciplinary review
Three of those and you will receive a full dessaggelation.
What's a dessaggelation you ask?


Oh you don't want to know.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Well we in ATC have just gotten word about that and what we need to do. I'm not really supposed to but (looks around and whispers) I'll share it with you.

First offense you get a demerit.
Three of those and you get a citation.
Five citations and you're looking at a violation.
Four of those and you get a written warning.
Two of those will land you in a world of hurt in the form of a disciplinary review
Three of those and you will receive a full dessaggelation.
What's a dessaggelation you ask?


Oh you don't want to know.
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If I lookup "dessaggelation" is it NSFW :)

So basically you are saying Joe Pilot can do this 1 x 3 x 5 x 4 x 2 times or 120 times before "dessaggelation"....seems doable.
 
Slight nit pick: You don't need to be ADSB-out equipped to fly under a class charlie shelf, as that is not class charlie airspace. The reason you can't do the same under class bravo shelves, is because those fall inside mode C veils. fwiw, we're talking about measly 5 mile bands, inconsequential pieces of airspace. Remarkably, a lot of my destinations do fall under them, as class E airports to small cities tend to congregate under them.

I was wondering the other day if there would be an allowance for flight under radar contact above 10K with a "negative ADSB" moniker by request, much in the same way we operate "negative RVSM" above 29K. Worst they can say is no I reckon. If I'm still flying rogue in Jan 2020 I'll give it a try and report back y'all. :D
 
Sinistar said:
In reading 14.CR.91.225 I see no penalties or consequences for not complying. We are now equipped so this isn't me trying to get around it. Rather, just curious on what they (FAA) would actually do? How about a scenario.

Joe Pilot decides to not equip his Cherokee. It was manufactured with a electrical system and currently has a mode C transponder but no ADSB out equipment. His departure point is a uncontrolled airport 50 miles away from a busy Bravo so he's starting outside the Mode C veil. He then flies VFR to a uncontrolled airport under the Bravo. He never enters the Bravo during his flight so no deviation there. He does not use Flight Following. He is just talking on the local unicomm (eg 122.9). A few hours later he flies back home again.

Who will "bust" him if he's not talking to ATC? Will he just get a letter or phone call from the FSDO directed to the registered owner? Since he's not going to a towered airport under the Bravo it seems to not fall on them. So then is it App/Dep that would see this. It is my understanding they don't even know about ADSB. And since he's not equipped his info isn't being sent into the ADSB ground based towers either

So which part of 14.CFR gives the FAA the authority to suspend and/or revoke priviledges. I didn't see it under 14.CFR.61 but maybe I just missed it. Is this what they would use to bust the person flying in ADSB out airspace without being properly equipped?

Seems like a person would be able to fly un-equipped under the Bravo's and Charlies and the only time they'll get busted is for doing something else wrong and this shows up too.
Click to expand...
IF his route is not in controlled airspace he doesn't need to be in compliance with ADSB.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I was wondering the other day if there would be an allowance for flight under radar contact above 10K with a "negative ADSB" moniker by request, much in the same way we operate "negative RVSM" above 29K. Worst they can say is no I reckon. If I'm still flying rogue in Jan 2020 I'll give it a try and report back y'all. :D
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I remember something saying there would be an official process for waivers on a per flight basis, but this is all I see in a quick search:

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/programs/adsb/faq/#g5

Basically: Broken, can request with ATC at any time, not equipped must request an hour in advance.
 
Velocity173 said:
A small tower, sure but center / approach knows if you’re equipped or not. Non ADS-B shows up as a solid circle next to your tag on the scope. That being said, all depends if the controller has time or even cares about reporting it.
Click to expand...

Doesn't have to be the operational controller that does the checking. If the FAA decided to make this a focus of their enforcement, they could just look at it in some conference room or management office and start their phonecalls from there. But just like most of their enforcement, I suspect it'll be mostly complaint driven rather than an active effort to hunt down violators.
 
If you fly in the mode C veil and don't have ADSB or transponder (operating), ATC has no way of telling if you're in violation or a no-electric aircraft, which is exempt from the requirement. That's if they even see you as a primary target. The only way you'd have trouble is if you have an accident or incident, or you get ramp checked at an airport inside the veil, or somebody reports you.

If you're flying at Cub speeds ATC will probably just assume you're an exempt aircraft; if you're cruising at 160 knots they may see it differently.
 
Aviation is largely an honor system...until you draw attention for some reason. Like one of my students asked, how would anyone know if you flew without a certificate or a medical? How would anyone know if you flew without a current annual on the airplane? There really isn't a skycop that is going to pull you over for an expired registration. However, just let something happen that draws attention to you, such as a accident, an anonymous phone call, or ramp check, then the FAA will be all over you.
 
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