A new customer

Henning said:
Not really a guilt trip, the FARs are black and white as to whose responsibility it it to assure the logging of maintenance.
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So..... Using that theory.......

The captain of the next Delta flight I am on, has read through ALL the maintenance logs and will stand in a court of law and in front of the FAA and swear the plane is airworthy..


Come on... There is a point where common sense dictates...
 
N801BH said:
So..... Using that theory.......

The captain of the next Delta flight I am on, has read through ALL the maintenance logs and will stand in a court of law and in front of the FAA and swear the plane is airworthy..


Come on... There is a point where common sense dictates...
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121 is different. The pilot gets a release from dispatch. If there is an outstanding no-go item such as an overdue phase X inspection, he won't get that release.

I wouldn't leave logs with the shop year around. They can give me stickers for oil changes and if they need them to check on some ancient AD compliance and for the annual I can bring them in. Keeping logs is a vestige from the days where the on-field shop owned all your maintenance and would start yelling at you if you had your annual done at a. Specialty shop.
 
Tom. Just give him an annual inspection. Life is too short to get involved in this idiot's problem.
 
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kgruber said:
Tom. Just give him an annual inspection. Life is too short to get involved in this idiots problem.
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Just to be clear for me.....

Who is the idiot here...

The pilot/owner or the mechanic:dunno:
 
kgruber said:
Tom. Just give him an annual inspection. Life is too short to get involved in this idiots problem.
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Tom was asked "to mediate in this mess".
By whom were you asked Tom? Are you being paid as an expert or are you doing this as a favor to someone?

I suggest getting a good attorney with experience dealing with the FAA. Even if the owner does get dinged by the FAA, he would probably still have a civil or even criminal case against the A&P and may wind up getting a decent settlement that could involve reimbursement for past work that was paid for but not completed. And a good lawyer may even get him a new plane out of the deal. I am "hope" the A&P has the equivalent of malpractice insurance.

But before I would dwell on any of those suppositions, I would get that attorney on retainer and get his opinion and advice.
 
I thought it was pretty clear that I had only talked to the owner.
 
N801BH said:
So..... Using that theory.......

The captain of the next Delta flight I am on, has read through ALL the maintenance logs and will stand in a court of law and in front of the FAA and swear the plane is airworthy..


Come on... There is a point where common sense dictates...
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Your medical analogy and the airplane situation are the same, in terms of common sense: You can choose to abdicate your responsibility and hope that the person you're paying $$$ to is doing their job.

Or you can take some ownership of the situation and provide some oversight.

In both cases, the risk of betrayal is borne by the guy writing the checks. If the doc or the mechanic screw up, you suffer.

Trust, but verify, is common sense. The more $$$ involved, the more sense it makes. The fact that situations like this occur proves it.
 
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N801BH said:
It all starts with trust......

This guy apparantly trusted this mechanic for years, and the owner might not be mechanically inclined at all so didn't want to read the logs as he assumed the "professional" was doing his job properly...

To me , log books are like medical records.. I pay BIG money to "Professionals" to look out for my best health.

Do I ask to read ALL my medical records :dunno:.... NO....

Do I take those records home with me after each doctor visit :dunno:.... NO......


If I come down with a fatal disease that could have been prevented if I had read my medical records, would I have blame.... HELL NO.. I put trust in PROFFESIONALS....

Without trust , you have nothing...:rolleyes: IMHO..
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I think the difference is that you don't have any required maintenance or ADs that legally need to be done. :D
 
Everskyward said:
I think the difference is that you don't have any required maintenance or ADs that legally need to be done. :D
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ha.... You are correct... I am a guy so it is minimum maintenace.....

Females AD's include breast enhancment, face lifts. Liposuction, facials, a permanent evey two weeks,( which means it is not really permanent):yes::lol:
 
Everskyward said:
I think the difference is that you don't have any required maintenance or ADs that legally need to be done. :D
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That is a very valid point, there were ADs due, hopefully completed but never logged, IFR certs, never logged, Radios were swapped out never logged.

As I read over the W/Os I see well over 50 grand over a 10 year period.

It's no wonder this owner is POed.
 
N801BH said:
So..... Using that theory.......

The captain of the next Delta flight I am on, has read through ALL the maintenance logs and will stand in a court of law and in front of the FAA and swear the plane is airworthy..


Come on... There is a point where common sense dictates...
Click to expand...

I can't tell you about the 121 world but I can tell you that it is the pilot's responsibility to verify airworthiness. The examiner I took my private checkride with relayed a story to me about a guy who rented a plane that was out of 100 hour inspection compliance. The FAA busted the pilot (not the flight school or owner) when they came into the school to look over records and noticed the issue.

kgruber said:
Tom. Just give him an annual inspection. Life is too short to get involved in this idiots problem.
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That's what I would probably do too. Just be extra thorough and make sure everything has been complied with and is correct. Why treat it any differently than an airplane that has sat out of annual for 10 years?

bartmc said:
Both.
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I agree, both the owner and mechanic are at fault here. The owner needs a lesson in what his responsibilities are, and it sounds like he is getting one.
 
mondtster said:
That's what I would probably do too. Just be extra thorough and make sure everything has been complied with and is correct. Why treat it any differently than an airplane that has sat out of annual for 10 years?
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Would you buy any aircraft with a 10 year gap in the maintenance records? and then a multi page catch up entry?

Red flags would go up in any buyers mind.
 
Tom-D said:
Would you buy any aircraft with a 10 year gap in the maintenance records? and then a multi page catch up entry?

Red flags would go up in any buyers mind.
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Agreed.......... The value of that airframe went down substantially because the mechanic failed to enter into the log books a yearly write up and sign off.....
 
N801BH said:
Females AD's include breast enhancment, face lifts. Liposuction, facials, a permanent evey two weeks,( which means it is not really permanent):yes::lol:
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Those things are voluntary and don't need to be signed off. Never had any of them except some perms back in the 80s. BTW, if you had a perm every two weeks your hair would probably fall out. Those are some pretty strong chemicals.
 
N801BH said:
Agreed.......... The value of that airframe went down substantially because the mechanic failed to enter into the log books a yearly write up and sign off.....
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And that is what I will try to cure.

The A&P-IA has enough W/O records in his file, to create the 10 stickies that will fix this, and the incentive of getting paid to do it.

His PMI and mine are the same guy at FSDO. When this all shakes out we will have a talk with him too. If any A&P-IA needs an audit this guy does, I wonder how many other logs are in his file draw that is in this same condition?
 
N801BH said:
So..... Using that theory.......

The captain of the next Delta flight I am on, has read through ALL the maintenance logs and will stand in a court of law and in front of the FAA and swear the plane is airworthy..


Come on... There is a point where common sense dictates...
Click to expand...

That's not the law, he's not the owner/operator, they are the ones that hold that duty.
 
Tom-D said:
Would you buy any aircraft with a 10 year gap in the maintenance records? and then a multi page catch up entry?

Red flags would go up in any buyers mind.
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How many J3 cubs and various other vintage airplanes have been continuously airworthy since their initial test flight? I'd venture to guess there aren't too many, yet they get bought and sold all the time with sketchy paperwork.

A lapse that long may raise some eyebrows, but is it your responsibility to avert any heat that this owner will face should he decide to sell it? He screwed up, not you. I personally wouldn't put much time into righting someone else's wrong. Besides, he has invoices stating he paid for annuals and maintenance during the period of time not logged in a logbook. It should be plenty obvious that the thing was likely kept in an "airworthy" condition all those years if someone looks at the paperwork at all.
 
N801BH said:
I am guessing ALL of them...:eek:
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I'm hopping you are wrong. It amazes me he didn't loose them.

I normally don't keep logs for any longer than it requires me to do the AD compliance and make my entries.

Once I have completed the AD compliance once and verified them on the aircraft, I normally only track the new ones and AD compliance is very simple and requires little time if any.

With my computer making a sticky for the maintenance completed is very easy, and placing that in the log is quickly done, signed off and the log handed back to the owner.
I do not like to hand the owner a sticky, they have a tendency to loose them and accuse me of not doing one for them. or they will paste it in the wrong book.
And yes, every sticky I have done over the past 4-5 years are saved to an external hard drive as my records.
 
Tom-D said:
Would you buy any aircraft with a 10 year gap in the maintenance records? and then a multi page catch up entry?

Red flags would go up in any buyers mind.
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Not any more than an airplane with 10 years of "lost" logbooks. They sell every day, usually from a situation similar to this.
 
kgruber said:
Not any more than an airplane with 10 years of "lost" logbooks. They sell every day, usually from a situation similar to this.
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And for LESS money then a comparable plane with clean log books..
 
Tom-D said:
It's a matter of trust, not who will loose what.
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If I have to give you my balls for you to take my temperature then I have to find another doctor. Sorry.

This world no longer runs on good old fashion trust.

It is not smart to risk loosing 20% or more of the value of my plane to someone I hire to do a job for me. If that hurts your feelings then you are in the wrong job but no matter as there are others whose feelings will be hurt a bit less.
 
Tom-D said:
flying in a unairworty aircraft for 10 years, both his PPL and the A&P-IA's certificate was open to the FAA if any thing had happen. and he is POed about that.
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Well this seem to be more a tale of dumb and dumber to me.

You have the lazy slease bag AP who did some work but didn't log it, then attempted to do unauthorized work (I unfortunately find quite a few APs who like trying to make money that way)

Then you have the naive and stupid AP / PPL who never verified a log book entry was ever made on his personal plane before he acted as PIC

Both of these two played this idiotic game for a decade.

I'd vote to yank both ther tickets, I wouldn't trust ether one to change oil let alone sign off a annual, or heaven forbid, pilot a aircraft.
 
Tom-D said:
Would you buy any aircraft with a 10 year gap in the maintenance records? and then a multi page catch up entry?

Red flags would go up in any buyers mind.
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That's right - the owner should start a civil suit for diminished value of the aircraft. It will be easy to document.
 
0luke1 said:
That's right - the owner should start a civil suit for diminished value of the aircraft. It will be easy to document.
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After he mails his pilots license and A&P ticket back to the FAA
 
If the owner got the sherif involved and the FAA isn't already involved, would a civil lawsuit trigger FAA disclosure? (I'm asking).

I'd agree that both the owner and the ap who didn't log the maintenance both deserve to lose their licenses. Even if they conspired to keep this quiet, it wouldn't stop someone else from starting a FAA investigation, right?

If I were a bystander, I don't think I'd be morally right to keep my mouth shut. Who knows what other work on other aircraft hasn't been done and/or documented. What happens if someone else gets killed?
 
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Some of youse guys are rats in waiting. Sad.
 
ChitDisturber said:
Well this seem to be more a tale of dumb and dumber to me.

You have the lazy slease bag AP who did some work but didn't log it, then attempted to do unauthorized work (I unfortunately find quite a few APs who like trying to make money that way)

Then you have the naive and stupid AP / PPL who never verified a log book entry was ever made on his personal plane before he acted as PIC

Both of these two played this idiotic game for a decade.

I'd vote to yank both ther tickets, I wouldn't trust ether one to change oil let alone sign off a annual, or heaven forbid, pilot a aircraft.
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I see no advantage in your thinking. We will get the log books fixed, the owner will be made whole, as well as the A&P-IA will get paid for the work completed.

My Customer knows now his trust was broken, and will learn from that. He got his a$$ chewed by an old Navy Chief, on how dumb was that.

The FAA ( my PMI ) will take action if he deems necessary.
 
Tom, I think you're on the right track, first address the issue and get the logbooks fixed. Neither the owner nor the mechanic gain anything by making this issue any bigger than it already is. :mad2: Not saying the A&P-IA doesn't need a come to Jesus meeting with the FSDO, but as an owner I'm not sure I'd want too much scrutiny of my flying and logbooks if this guy was my mechanic.:dunno:
The owner got hosed, ain't the first time it's happened, hopefully the guy was doing the work he was charging for. :nono: We've all paid too much or got short changed on a repair, live and learn and change shops.;) Luckily this wasn't discovered during an accident or incident investigation, get it fixed and move on, would be the advice I would give the owner.;)

Tom-D said:
I see no advantage in your thinking. We will get the log books fixed, the owner will be made whole, as well as the A&P-IA will get paid for the work completed.

My Customer knows now his trust was broken, and will learn from that. He got his a$$ chewed by an old Navy Chief, on how dumb was that.

The FAA ( my PMI ) will take action if he deems necessary.
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N747JB said:
Tom, I think you're on the right track, first address the issue and get the logbooks fixed. Neither the owner nor the mechanic gain anything by making this issue any bigger than it already is. :mad2: Not saying the A&P-IA doesn't need a come to Jesus meeting with the FSDO, but as an owner I'm not sure I'd want too much scrutiny of my flying and logbooks if this guy was my mechanic.:dunno:
The owner got hosed, ain't the first time it's happened, hopefully the guy was doing the work he was charging for. :nono: We've all paid too much or got short changed on a repair, live and learn and change shops.;) Luckily this wasn't discovered during an accident or incident investigation, get it fixed and move on, would be the advice I would give the owner.;)
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Hope.

I hope I never have an engine quit at 500 feet agl after takeoff. If I do, and I survive, and I find out someone didn't do what they were paid to do, I'd be sorely tempted to fill them full of lead.
 
0luke1 said:
I hope I never have an engine quit at 500 feet agl after takeoff. If I do, and I survive, and I find out someone didn't do what they were paid to do, I'd be sorely tempted to fill them full of lead.
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I suggest that if that were to happen, you might be better off thanking God you are still alive and I'd hope you would not want to spend the rest of your life in some dark hole of a prison.
 
0luke1 said:
Hope.

I hope I never have an engine quit at 500 feet agl after takeoff. If I do, and I survive, and I find out someone didn't do what they were paid to do, I'd be sorely tempted to fill them full of lead.
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Flying ain't for you dude.
 
Tom-D said:
I see no advantage in your thinking. We will get the log books fixed, the owner will be made whole, as well as the A&P-IA will get paid for the work completed.

My Customer knows now his trust was broken, and will learn from that. He got his a$$ chewed by an old Navy Chief, on how dumb was that.

The FAA ( my PMI ) will take action if he deems necessary.
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The advantage is to remove two bad A&P IAs as well as one pilot from the system before they hurt someone.

Persoanlly I prefer to remove corrosion when I find it, letting it fester and grow is normally a poor and expensive choice.
 
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