A new customer

ChitDisturber said:
The advantage is to remove two bad A&P IAs as well as one pilot from the system before they hurt someone.

Persoanlly I prefer to remove corrosion when I find it, letting it fester and grow is normally a poor and expensive choice.
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Would you like to be convected with out any one hearing your side? or do you know some thing that has not been introduced here ?

How do you know the quality of the work preformed other than the logs were not completed?


Or do simply hate A&Ps in principal?
And where did you get two A&Ps ? are you adding me to the mix?
 
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Tom-D said:
Would you like to be convected with out any one hearing your side? or do you know some thing that has not been introduced here ?

Or do simply hate A&Ps in principal?
And where did you get two A&Ps ? are you adding me to the mix?
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We only know what YOU told us......

My bet is you will sweep this under the rug to cover a fellow A&P/IA... I hope you prove me wrong though...:rolleyes:
 
Tom-D said:
Would you like to be convected with out any one hearing your side? or do you know some thing that has not been introduced here ?

Or do simply hate A&Ps in principal?
And where did you get two A&Ps ? are you adding me to the mix?
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Ahh, I thought you said the PPL/owner was a AP too.

I think they should have their case played out, from what you said seems like a open and shut matter, A&P IA did not follow regs, and also tried to hustle the owner for unessacsry work (the hose matter is civil not FAA matter) over the span of a decade.
The pilot didn't follow regs to ensure his A/C was airworthy (which is wasn't) for a decade as well.

Just a matter of it these violations were commuted by commission or omission, still seems like a wham bham no license ma'm matter at the very least.
 
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N801BH said:
We only know what YOU told us...… That's right, and I never mentioned the quality of the work Because I have not inspected the aircraft.

My bet is you will sweep this under the rug to cover a fellow A&P/IA... I hope you prove me wrong though...:rolleyes:
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That is yet to be seen, What I want is to have the logs corrected and insurance this will not happen again.

My duty is to my customer, making the A&P-IA mad and thus will not remedy the logs does not help my customer.

I will take this down by the numbers first things first, get the logs fixed. If I can't accomplish this the lawyers will.

sweeping under the rug? I hope if/when you make a mistake no one treats you like you want to handle this.

I'll get the logs in the morning then I'll go see the A&P to get his side of the argument. and go from there.

Many folks here want blood, rather than getting the problem fixed.
 
Tom-D said:
.......

sweeping under the rug? I hope if/when you make a mistake no one treats you like you want to handle this.


.
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I hope you get this fixed....

Ps.. I DON'T make the same mistake 10 YEARS in row...:no::nonod::mad::mad2:
 
Tom-D said:
I'll get the logs in the morning then I'll go see the A&P to get his side of the argument. and go from there.

Many folks here want blood, rather than getting the problem fixed.
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Welcome to the Internet!!:rofl::rofl:
It's a funny thing, today everyone wants to either put somebody in jail or sue them! :mad2:
I'd like to here the other side of the story! :yes:
 
ChitDisturber said:
Ahh, I thought you said the PPL/owner was a AP too.

Show me where I said that? you should read what it written

I think they should have their case played out, from what you said seems like a open and shut matter, A&P IA did not follow regs, and also tried to hustle the owner for unessacsry work (the hose matter is civil not FAA matter) over the span of a decade.
The pilot didn't follow regs to ensure his A/C was airworthy (which is wasn't) for a decade as well.

Just a matter of it these violations were commuted by commission or omission, still seems like a wham bham no license ma'm matter at the very least.
Click to expand...

I will play this out in a matter best for my customer, and that is get his logs fixed.
 
Tom-D said:
I suggest that if that were to happen, you might be better off thanking God you are still alive and I'd hope you would not want to spend the rest of your life in some dark hole of a prison.
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I'd say that's what the gun-decking mechanic better hope for. I sure wouldn't let this rest. Does anyone really think the mechanic was only sloppy about paperwork?
 
0luke1 said:
I'd say that's what the gun-decking mechanic better hope for. I sure wouldn't let this rest. Does anyone really think the mechanic was only sloppy about paperwork?
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Yeah, you can be a good mechanic and sloppy on the log entries. Some of the surgeons with the best outcomes are the tardiest in completing their operative notes. Complying with some federal goverment rules on charting is just not the first (or third) thing on their mind.
 
People are consistent. The owner stopped the work because the mechanic wanted to install all new hoses, even though he had previously installed "lifetime" lines.

The mechanic is a liar and a thief - and his behavior is to cut corners.

Were the lines "lifetime"? Were all of them even installed? Maybe there's a reason he wanted to change all the lines again? Counterfeit parts?

It's a gross breach of trust. What about all the other aircraft he worked on?
 
Tom-D said:
Many folks here want blood, rather than getting the problem fixed.
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This.

The primary issue is how to resolve the logs and get the plane airworthy.

The secondary issue is to educate the owner (customer) how to prevent this from happening in the future.

Standing around and trying to run a kangaroo court and determine the appropriate penalty is not productive for anyone.

If the owner wants to seek damages, enforcement, or retribution, the owner should go consult with a competent attorney and determine the best path forward. I am not sure what advice the attorney would offer, and, more importantly, not sure there is any benefit to any actions contemplated, other than to the attorney and his employees pay checks and Christmas bonuses.

The old AP appears to do substandard work, so, as we can always learn from Faux News and the Spin Zone, the "invisible hand of the Market" will eliminate him from having customers and there is no need for government intervention and regulation.
 
JoseCuervo said:
This.

The primary issue is how to resolve the logs and get the plane airworthy.

The secondary issue is to educate the owner (customer) how to prevent this from happening in the future.

Standing around and trying to run a kangaroo court and determine the appropriate penalty is not productive for anyone.

If the owner wants to seek damages, enforcement, or retribution, the owner should go consult with a competent attorney and determine the best path forward. I am not sure what advice the attorney would offer, and, more importantly, not sure there is any benefit to any actions contemplated, other than to the attorney and his employees pay checks and Christmas bonuses.

The old AP appears to do substandard work, so, as we can always learn from Faux News and the Spin Zone, the "invisible hand of the Market" will eliminate him from having customers and there is no need for government intervention and regulation.
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And therein lays the problem.....

1-This mechanic is UN NAMED

2- Some people don't want the feds involved so there will be NO investigation.

3- The "invisible hand of the market" cannot play out because the mechanic will be able to hide from future suckers since he does NOT get exposed..


So JoseCuervo, how do you propose getting this mechanic to make things right and come clean ?:dunno:
 
N801BH said:
And therein lays the problem.....

1-This mechanic is UN NAMED

2- Some people don't want the feds involved so there will be NO investigation.

3- The "invisible hand of the market" cannot play out because the mechanic will be able to hide from future suckers since he does NOT get exposed..


So JoseCuervo, how do you propose getting this mechanic to make things right and come clean ?:dunno:
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He is unnamed, but if he does this kind of work for ALL his customers, then there is either a large group of consumers who are happy having sub-standard work done at some price (and not sure that we have determined it is a discounted price) or the " market" will correct for the substandard work and leave him without customers.

I have a hard time believing there are a large group of owners who don't care about logbooks.

As for how does he get "exposed", how does he get "exposed" for other types of shoddy work? How does your mechanic get "exposed" for good or bad work?

As consumers, we enter into all types of transactions with "professionals" that may do shoddy work or may do crappy work. My attorney is the best attorney around, in my opinion, but, I know plenty of people that don't agree. I see all sorts of tradesman who aren't competent to change a light bulb but have stayed in business for years.

There is a reason people pay for Angie's List and Consumer Reports. There is also a reason people don't.

Here is one for you. I fly frequently in a buddy's c180, lots of time over inhospitable terrain and unimproved locations. I know who his mechanic is and have talked with the mechanic once about some info on a purchase. He will likely be my mechanic. Now I have found a c182 that is hangared 50 yards from the mechanic. The owner thinks the guy is incompetent.



"So JoseCuervo, how do you propose getting this mechanic to make things right and come clean ?:dunno:"

Again, I don't care what the old mechanic does. I usually want to move forward and make things right in the future and learn from my own mistakes.

We all have that friend who can't move on from wanting an ex- to be "punished" for the past transgressions. That is all wasted energy and emotion. Same here with wanting to expose the "mechanic".

Do you believe the mechanic can have a full time portfolio of customers who allow shoddy workmanship?
 
JoseCuervo said:
He is unnamed, but if he does this kind of work for ALL his customers, then there is either a large group of consumers who are happy having sub-standard work done at some price (and not sure that we have determined it is a discounted price) or the " market" will correct for the substandard work and leave him without customers.

I have a hard time believing there are a large group of owners who don't care about logbooks.

As for how does he get "exposed", how does he get "exposed" for other types of shoddy work? How does your mechanic get "exposed" for good or bad work?

As consumers, we enter into all types of transactions with "professionals" that may do shoddy work or may do crappy work. My attorney is the best attorney around, in my opinion, but, I know plenty of people that don't agree. I see all sorts of tradesman who aren't competent to change a light bulb but have stayed in business for years.

There is a reason people pay for Angie's List and Consumer Reports. There is also a reason people don't.

Here is one for you. I fly frequently in a buddy's c180, lots of time over inhospitable terrain and unimproved locations. I know who his mechanic is and have talked with the mechanic once about some info on a purchase. He will likely be my mechanic. Now I have found a c182 that is hangared 50 yards from the mechanic. The owner thinks the guy is incompetent.



"So JoseCuervo, how do you propose getting this mechanic to make things right and come clean ?:dunno:"

Again, I don't care what the old mechanic does. I usually want to move forward and make things right in the future and learn from my own mistakes.

We all have that friend who can't move on from wanting an ex- to be "punished" for the past transgressions. That is all wasted energy and emotion. Same here with wanting to expose the "mechanic".

Do you believe the mechanic can have a full time portfolio of customers who allow shoddy workmanship?
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As a FAA certificated A&P/IA he is bound by regulations to make log book entries of all planes he fixes. The includes annuals and fuel line replacements.... This apparantly was not done for this airframe and I am guessing Tom is NOT making up this entire story..


Once again I will ask....

If a mechanic is not fulfilling his legal FAA requirement of logging work done, how would you deal with this very important deficiency :dunno:
 
N801BH said:
Once again I will ask....

If a mechanic is not fulfilling his legal FAA requirement of logging work done, how would you deal with this very important deficiency :dunno:
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Me? I would kick myself in the butt for being a dumbass for 10 years, find a new mechanic to fix the problems and get me moving forward, and then take a more active interest in my log books in the future.

If somebody asked my opinion/referral, I would be honest and relate my experience.

I got 99 problems, don't need 101.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Me? I would kick myself in the butt for being a dumbass for 10 years, find a new mechanic to fix the problems and get me moving forward, and then take a more active interest in my log books in the future.
Click to expand...
Yup...
 
N801BH said:
As a FAA certificated A&P/IA he is bound by regulations to make log book entries of all planes he fixes.
If a mechanic is not fulfilling his legal FAA requirement of logging work done, how would you deal with this very important deficiency :dunno:
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Where is that regulation?
Who is responsible for insuring this is done?
 
Look at the "Lawsuit Madness OMG" thread.


Dumbass takes off with one tank dry, 20 minutes fuel in one tank, loose gas cap, and flies uncoordinated to the crash site.

My approach would be to kick myself in the butt for being a dumbass, get some more training so. I don't make stupid mistake in the future. And move on.

The dumbass in the other thread doesn't want to do ANY of those things. Just wants to waste life and energy trying to get vengeance on another party.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Perhaps it was indentional?
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Clarification: my comment was NOT directed to ClimbnSink(youse), but to the entire thread which is riddled with spelling errors and wrong words(improper use of its/it's) as examples.

HR
 
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Tom-D said:
Where is that regulation?
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14 CFR 43.9

Who is responsible for insuring this is done?
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each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component

The post you responded to talks about 'planes he fixes', that would suggest maintenance rather than inspections. Unless the IA only performed 'inspections' and never turned a wrench on the plane (you mentioned he replaced hoses 4 years ago), he has to document at a minimum the maintenance performed and the return to service entries.

They are both on the hook, the pilot for taking off without adhering to 91.409 and the IA for not keeping records iaw 43.9. Your intent to resolve this with a settlement between the parties suggests that you already explained that to the customer.
 
weilke said:
14 CFR 43.9



each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component

The post you responded to talks about 'planes he fixes', that would suggest maintenance rather than inspections. Unless the IA only performed 'inspections' and never turned a wrench on the plane (you mentioned he replaced hoses 4 years ago), he has to document at a minimum the maintenance performed and the return to service entries.

They are both on the hook, the pilot for taking off without adhering to 91.409 and the IA for not keeping records iaw 43.9. Your intent to resolve this with a settlement between the parties suggests that you already explained that to the customer.
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This is one of the reasons I would really love to find local CC offering a A&P course.

In this industy we have the old and "experienced" A&Ps like Tom who dont know even the most basic regs, like recording their work... I'm a ATP/CFI, I'm not a A or a P, let alone a IA and I KNOW THOSE REGS.

From my experience, for every A&P craftsman who takes pride in their work and understands business and honor, you have 5 others who are more akin to those shady/incompetent gas station wrench types, who would rip their own mother off if given the opportunity.

The amount of faith and money I waste on some of these idiots, I really need to look into getting my A&P, just a matter of finding the time, when I work 6days a week :rolleyes2:
 
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weilke said:
14 CFR 43.9



each person who maintains, performs preventive maintenance, rebuilds, or alters an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component

The post you responded to talks about 'planes he fixes', that would suggest maintenance rather than inspections. Unless the IA only performed 'inspections' and never turned a wrench on the plane (you mentioned he replaced hoses 4 years ago), he has to document at a minimum the maintenance performed and the return to service entries.

They are both on the hook, the pilot for taking off without adhering to 91.409 and the IA for not keeping records iaw 43.9. Your intent to resolve this with a settlement between the parties suggests that you already explained that to the customer.
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Yep, Good for you, :)

I have had the logs for about an hour this morning, the casual look sees the last entry is 2003, but it is on the next to last page in the book… WTF..

I think there is a log missing.

off to see the mechanic, who by the way has a very good reputation and a well known business. (now that I know who he is)

I smell a rat..

So much for 1 side of the argument.
 
Tom-D said:
Yep, Good for you, :)

I have had the logs for about an hour this morning, the casual look sees the last entry is 2003, but it is on the next to last page in the book… WTF..

I think there is a log missing.

off to see the mechanic, who by the way has a very good reputation and a well known business. (now that I know who he is)

I smell a rat..

So much for 1 side of the argument.
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if the book is full, I'm betting the owner has an envelope of stickies given to him by the mechanic that he never bothered to open, might have even pitched it.
 
Tom-D said:
The ones that don't have an AD issued. :)
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But were part of the 50 THOUSAND dollars over 10 years your "new" client has invoices for...

Personally I am begining to think you as full of Siht as a Christmas Turkey...
 
Here's the other side of the saga:

I called the Mechanic place of business, he was going to be there all day and said he be more than happy to fill me in on what was going on.

When I got there they were very cordial and pleasant, the shop was clean, several high end singles were on the floor, and several people working on them.

The owner (A&P-IA in question ) and I had a discussion on what was going on with the 172 owner.So to para phrase this Pizzing contest has been going on for more than a year.
The 172 owner has been carrying a maintenance tab and paying monthly for the work done. He was told at the last annual that the 172 had low vac pressure. In the process of trouble shooting it was found all the hoses in the instrument vac system were old and cracking.

HE authorized the work by signing a work order that has a statement that the maintenance records will be held until the bill is paid. ( I saw it, he signed it).
When he tried to stop the maintenance the work had already been completed, and was told that he could no longer carry the payment on a monthly billing.
He then got the lawyers involved, that's when the A&P-IA gave him all of the history records, and personal items they held. but not the last log which will now go to litigation over who and when the bill is paid.

Bottom line, the logs are complete, and all entries are made and signed off. The 172 has been legal all along.

So. it's in the hands of the lawyers and I'm outta here.

My advise to the 172 owner was to go pay his bill and pick up his log book.

Why he came on to me like he did is beyond me, but I don't need another dead beat customer.
 
Tom-D said:
....... but not the last log which will now go to litigation over who and when the bill is paid.

Bottom line, the logs are complete, and all entries are made and signed off. The 172 has been legal all along.

.....
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I can't wait to see when the "last logs" were filled out.. Was it 9 years ago or 9 hours ago...:dunno::confused::rolleyes:
 
N801BH said:
I can't wait to see when the "last logs" were filled out.. Was it 9 years ago or 9 hours ago...:dunno::confused::rolleyes:
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The last book covering the period from 2003 to present looked as if the entries had been made at different times and the ACTT & ETT hours were tracking as they should be.

I didn't see a single entry that would cause me to believe that the were phony'ed up lately.

He told me that when the sheriff told him to return the 172 owners property he got angry because he had just moved into a new office and could't find anything, I guess his frustration didn't look good to anyone.
 
I hope you don't have any problems with the owner paying you.
 
Amazing that once I hear both sides, I want to side with the shop owner! :D Funny how customers leave out important parts of their sob stories!
"Mommy, mommy, that mean boy pushed me down!" (After I spit in his face and called his mother a slut)
I know there are bad shops, but most are at least trying to do right, it sounds like this shop got tired of not getting paid and the owner of the airplane got mad at the end of his free financing.:no:
I think I'd avoid this customer as well!;)

Tom-D said:
Here's the other side of the saga:

I called the Mechanic place of business, he was going to be there all day and said he be more than happy to fill me in on what was going on.

When I got there they were very cordial and pleasant, the shop was clean, several high end singles were on the floor, and several people working on them.

The owner (A&P-IA in question ) and I had a discussion on what was going on with the 172 owner.So to para phrase this Pizzing contest has been going on for more than a year.
The 172 owner has been carrying a maintenance tab and paying monthly for the work done. He was told at the last annual that the 172 had low vac pressure. In the process of trouble shooting it was found all the hoses in the instrument vac system were old and cracking.

HE authorized the work by signing a work order that has a statement that the maintenance records will be held until the bill is paid. ( I saw it, he signed it).
When he tried to stop the maintenance the work had already been completed, and was told that he could no longer carry the payment on a monthly billing.
He then got the lawyers involved, that's when the A&P-IA gave him all of the history records, and personal items they held. but not the last log which will now go to litigation over who and when the bill is paid.

Bottom line, the logs are complete, and all entries are made and signed off. The 172 has been legal all along.

So. it's in the hands of the lawyers and I'm outta here.

My advise to the 172 owner was to go pay his bill and pick up his log book.

Why he came on to me like he did is beyond me, but I don't need another dead beat customer.
Click to expand...
 
Tom-D said:
The last book covering the period from 2003 to present looked as if the entries had been made at different times and the ACTT & ETT hours were tracking as they should be.

I didn't see a single entry that would cause me to believe that the were phony'ed up lately.

He told me that when the sheriff told him to return the 172 owners property he got angry because he had just moved into a new office and could't find anything, I guess his frustration didn't look good to anyone.
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I'm confused, the court order stared he needed to return the 172s records, Mr. AP then violated that order by illegally keeping over a decade worth of records??

I'd say if he doesn't think the laws of the land apply to him, perhaps you should inform the Sheriff that you witnessed the AP hid and lied about keeping property which the court ordered he surrender to the officer
 
ChitDisturber said:
I'm confused, the court order stared he needed to return the 172s records, Mr. AP then violated that order by illegally keeping over a decade worth of records??

That's what the litigation is all about.


I'd say if he doesn't think the laws of the land apply to him, perhaps you should inform the Sheriff that you witnessed the AP hid and lied about keeping property which the court ordered he surrender to the officer
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That's there problem, why should I get involved? I'me sure that will all come out in court.

Keep in mind I para-phrase.
 
N747JB said:
it sounds like this shop got tired of not getting paid and the owner of the airplane got mad at the end of his free financing
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This A&P-IA has branched out on his own, and taken a few customers with him. He can not carry this debt.

I was told today( I have not verified ) that both the old shop and the new has liens on the 172.
 
What happens with a mechanics lien if the owner has a loan on the car/boat/plane for more that it is worth? Can the shop sell it to collect?
 
Tom-D said:
This A&P-IA has branched out on his own, and taken a few customers with him. He can not carry this debt.

I was told today( I have not verified ) that both the old shop and the new has liens on the 172.
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I doubt the lien will stick, the guy lied to the police, whos to say he didnt lie about everything else, courts have little patience or sympathy for people who try to pull one over on a sheriff.

Might also want to use caution, you know the guy is withholding property he was ordered to return, Im no legal expert but I'd treat this thing like the plague.
 
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