A new customer

[Tom-D]

with a tale of woe, seems the owner of the 172XP was having his annuals and all other maintenance done by 1 A&P-IA he allowed the A&P to keep his logs and depended upon them to make the proper entries. This has been this way since the early 90s.
He comes to me today, and says he is very disappointed after he had to get a court order to stop work on his aircraft when he found the A&P-IA wanted to change all hoses in the 172 at a price of 9 grand and refused to sign off the annual until this was completed.
This aircraft has no ADs for this to be done, the engine fuel hoses were changed by this guy 4 years ago to teflon and
s/steel life time hose. He was going to change them again saying this was to be completed each 5 years.
Knowing this was BS, the owner says stop all maintenance and give me my log books. I'm outta here. The A&P-IA then says not until after you pay me. ( that's when the lawyers got involved) after the Sheriff came with a court order to return the owners log books the A&P_IA took about 30 minutes of slamming draws and cussing they came up with the log books.
That is when the 172 owner saw that there had not been and entry made since 2003.
Now I'm asked to mediate the mess, get the signoffs.
MY new customer feels he was flying an unairworty aircraft for 10 years, both his PPL and the A&P-IA's certificate was open to the FAA if any thing had happen. and he is POed about that.
Now the Logs for this aircraft will show 10 years of annuals & maintenance in one big entry.
So, monday I believe I will approach the A&P with this Idea, you make the proper entries with the proper times and dates on separate entries, as required by FAR 43 or we get the FAA involved, (as a last resort(. And I'll get you paid.

any suggestions ?

 

[frfly172]

Does the owner have the work orders and receipts of the work done previously? If the mechanic refuses to sign off ,it looks like the aircraft was not in annual all those years. What is his signature worth after the fact? The owner may have to cut his loss and start new.

 

[N801BH]

Personally... The A&P / IA needs a good lesson in humble pie.... I would get the FSDO involved and let the chips fall where they will.....

The owner /pilot acted in good faith and assumed the A&P/IA was doing the proper things and since it took a court order for the owner/pilot to get the log books back to actually confirm the mechanic had not filled in the log books for 10 years I think the FAA would give some slack to the owner /pilot and FRY the A&P/IA........

Altho I have been down this road before and Tom seems to think the "unspoken" rule of not getting another A&P/IA in trouble will prevent him from disclosing this serious violation to the feds.......

Your turn, Tom ol buddy...

 

[us AAirways]

Meet him in the parking lot after he finishes work. Oh and bring your friend Smith and Wesson too.

 

[Tom-D]

The owner has the W/Os and the canceled checks to prove he paid for all the years prior.

who is responsible to insure the mechanics make the proper entries?

I did inform the owner of that today.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Ask nicely for the signoffs if he doesn't deliver asap toss him to the fsdo.

 

[N801BH]

The owner has the W/Os and the canceled checks to prove he paid for all the years prior.

who is responsible to insure the mechanics make the proper entries?

I did inform the owner of that today.

Now you are starting the "cover for another fellow mechanic" thing....

Don't lay the guilt trip on the owner /pilot.. We all know he is responsible for confirming the plane is legal and airworthy,,, But if it took a court order and 1/2 hour of the mechanic "cussing and slamming drawers" before he give the log books to the owner then he has a great case to show the mechanic needs to look for another line of work... IMHO...

 

[Tom-D]

Ask nicely for the signoffs if he doesn't deliver asap toss him to the fsdo.

That's pretty much where I am.

I have the package setting here going Sh--…………

We will see if clearer heads prevail monday.

 

[Tom-D]

Now you are starting the "cover for another fellow mechanic" thing....

Don't lay the guilt trip on the owner /pilot.. We all know he is responsible for confirming the plane is legal and airworthy,,, But if it took a court order and 1/2 hour of the mechanic "cussing and slamming drawers" before he give the log books to the owner then he has a great case to show the mechanic needs to look for another line of work... IMHO...

Not really Ben, there is enough blame here to go around. but read 91.401 (b)

I have no pity for any A&P who will treat customers like this.

 

[N801BH]

Not really Ben, there is enough blame here to go around. but read 91.401 (b)

I have no pity for any A&P who will treat customers like this.

There you go again....

First you say the "New Customer" has invoices and cancelled checks for all the work done by this sleezbag A&P/IA and then you throw in the " there is enough blame here to go around"..

Just another guilt trip layed on the owner/pilot... Geez...

 

[Greg Bockelman]

There you go again....

First you say the "New Customer" has invoices and cancelled checks for all the work done by this sleezbag A&P/IA and then you throw in the " there is enough blame here to go around"..

Just another guilt trip layed on the owner/pilot... Geez...

Well, ultimately it is the owner who is responsible for making sure the proper entries were made.

The owner may have the receipts and cancelled checks, but without the logbook entries, that doesn't mean squat, really.

 

[Tom-D]

Well, ultimately it is the owner who is responsible for making sure the proper entries were made.

The owner may have the receipts and cancelled checks, but without the logbook entries, that doesn't mean squat, really.

Exactly ! had either person been doing their job we wouldn't be here

 

[N801BH]

..., but without the logbook entries, that doesn't mean squat, really.

True,, But.. it took a court order and the sheriff to regain custody of those log books from the mechanic... I would bet the FAA will give a bit of slack to the owner in this case.....

Time will tell...

That is assuming Tom will turn him in..

 

[Tom-D]

True,, But.. it took a court order and the sheriff to regain custody of those log books from the mechanic... I would bet the FAA will give a bit of slack to the owner in this case.....

Time will tell...

That is assuming Tom will turn him in..

we will see, I'm not beyond having the FAA kick his ass. but I place my new customer at risk in so doing.

I do believe the FAA will side with the owner.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Who on Earth would leave their logbooks in the possession of the mechanic for ten years? Except this guy, that is? I trust them with the logbooks while they are doing the work (though I know some people won't even do that) but the other 11 1/2 months of the year they stay with me?

 

[N801BH]

....
I do believe the FAA will side with the owner.

And so do I sir....

 

[weilke]

we will see, I'm not beyond having the FAA kick his ass. but I place my new customer at risk in so doing.

I do believe the FAA will side with the owner.

Well, there is the chance that they will interview him, review his logbooks and then ding him with a violation for every single flight he has taken in the plane since 2004 (they only found out about this now, so no 'stale complaint' issue).

As much as it pains me ;-), it may be worthwhile to get an aviation attorney on board with this to see whether the owner could enter into some sort of plea agreement with the feds. The bigger responsibility is clearly with the IA, but the owner is quite exposed in this.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

You have possession of logs, do not let him have them unless you know you can get them back.

Better suggestion might be to have him provide stickers of sign offs of each annual and maintenance and let you put them into the logs for the last 9 years that way you do not have to risk losing your clients logs and the guy going off the deep end and screwing you and your client more.

with a tale of woe, seems the owner of the 172XP was having his annuals and all other maintenance done by 1 A&P-IA he allowed the A&P to keep his logs and depended upon them to make the proper entries. This has been this way since the early 90s.
He comes to me today, and says he is very disappointed after he had to get a court order to stop work on his aircraft when he found the A&P-IA wanted to change all hoses in the 172 at a price of 9 grand and refused to sign off the annual until this was completed.
This aircraft has no ADs for this to be done, the engine fuel hoses were changed by this guy 4 years ago to teflon and
s/steel life time hose. He was going to change them again saying this was to be completed each 5 years.
Knowing this was BS, the owner says stop all maintenance and give me my log books. I'm outta here. The A&P-IA then says not until after you pay me. ( that's when the lawyers got involved) after the Sheriff came with a court order to return the owners log books the A&P_IA took about 30 minutes of slamming draws and cussing they came up with the log books.
That is when the 172 owner saw that there had not been and entry made since 2003.
Now I'm asked to mediate the mess, get the signoffs.
MY new customer feels he was flying an unairworty aircraft for 10 years, both his PPL and the A&P-IA's certificate was open to the FAA if any thing had happen. and he is POed about that.
Now the Logs for this aircraft will show 10 years of annuals & maintenance in one big entry.
So, monday I believe I will approach the A&P with this Idea, you make the proper entries with the proper times and dates on separate entries, as required by FAR 43 or we get the FAA involved, (as a last resort(. And I'll get you paid.

any suggestions ?

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

The owner has the W/Os and the canceled checks to prove he paid for all the years prior.

who is responsible to insure the mechanics make the proper entries?

I did inform the owner of that today.

Every pilot knows - no work is complete until the paper work is done.

I do not even give my books to mechanics I ask for stickers of the sign offs. If anything I give them the log on DVD pdf's.

 

[Tom-D]

Well, there is the chance that they will interview him, review his logbooks and then ding him with a violation for every single flight he has taken in the plane since 2004 (they only found out about this now, so no 'stale complaint' issue).

As much as it pains me ;-), it may be worthwhile to get an aviation attorney on board with this to see whether the owner could enter into some sort of plea agreement with the feds. The bigger responsibility is clearly with the IA, but the owner is quite exposed in this.

That is pretty much how I see it.

Step 1 square 1, A&P-IA let's talk.

I get 10 stickies dated correctly, you get a check..

win win.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

about 12 years ago when I got my plane there were still some guys who left their logs in their IA's office. I heard early on of a plane that lost its logs and just determined that my logs need to be with me at all times.

I do not hear of this sort of thing like they once did but I guess it still goes on.

Considering the number of procrastinators out there, one should look at their logs regularly if they do keep them in the possession of their IA.

 

[Shawn]

Well, the owner paid for all of the services and has proof of that...I am SURE there has to be some regulation that says any work must be signed off in in the log book with A&P's signature.

So take all of the invoices for the work performed that has missing log entries, total them up and tell the owner to sue the bastard in small claims court for fraud for not completing the work as required by the FAA. Here in CA you can sue in small claims for up to $7500, you don't need a lawyer and only cost a few bucks to file.

File the claim, serve him papers...then let him know he has an out if he competes the logs (cuz that is ultimately what you want), otherwise "see ya in court".

Worst cast, you loose on some technicality and you are right where you started...best case, you get your logs up to date because he realizes a few log entries isn't worth the court fight. If the original A&P wants to fight and play hardball...then at least the owner could get paid off with a court judgement for the past work done to help fix the mess.

Low cost and no Feds involved. Then you can report the jerk to the FAA. Sounds like with the Sheriff needed to even GET the logs, he is beyond the point of reasoning.

 

[Tom-D]

I do not even give my books to mechanics I ask for stickers of the sign offs.

That alone would be an issue to me. If you don't trust me with your logs, why would you trust me to work on your aircraft?

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

That alone would be an issue to me. If you don't trust me with your logs, why would you trust me to work on your aircraft?

I think it less likely you would lose my airplane and beside if that happened your insurance would pay for that. Lost logs, ive not heard of anyone collecting on that yet.

 

[Tom-D]

I think it less likely you would lose my airplane and beside if that happened your insurance would pay for that. Lost logs, ive not heard of anyone collecting on that yet.

It's a matter of trust, not who will loose what.

 

[Hiperbiper]

Tom,
Be careful that while doing your "win-win" plan that you don't get too involved in what might turn out to be poor maintaince for nine years compounded by post dated BS log entries...

If sometime down the road something bad were to happen to this bird and this story came to light how would it look to the FAA?

I know you know more about this stuff than I do but watch YOUR A$$ in this deal. Remember; No good deed goes unpunished"!


Chris

 

[Tom-D]

I would like to give every one a chance to make it right, if they won't, we will decide what the next step is.

After all, I only know one side of the story. If there is another side?

 

[weirdjim]

Yeah. Honor the profession. Write the bastard that did all this off. Get the person with the airplane into the air as soon as possible with the minimal cost.

You will either make it up in this life or the next, your call.

Jim

 

[RotorAndWing]

we will see, I'm not beyond having the FAA kick his ass. but I place my new customer at risk in so doing.

I do believe the FAA will side with the owner.

And so do I sir....

Well, there is the chance that they will interview him, review his logbooks and then ding him with a violation for every single flight he has taken in the plane since 2004 (they only found out about this now, so no 'stale complaint' issue).

As much as it pains me ;-), it may be worthwhile to get an aviation attorney on board with this to see whether the owner could enter into some sort of plea agreement with the feds. The bigger responsibility is clearly with the IA, but the owner is quite exposed in this.

Going to the FAA will open a Pandora's box. The owner will get dinged as well as the mechanic.

 

[GMascelli]

There's always another side, three actually. owners, A&P and the truth. What was this customer thinking? I think Chris may have nailed it, what if this does "turn out to be poor maintenance for nine years compounded by post dated BS log entries"

I don't write the check until I read everything entered/signed off in the log and then my logs go home with me.

 

[RogerT]

I see going to the FAA as really opening a can of worms. The only way for the owner to determine the aircraft was airworthy was to review the logs, confirm any AD's and make sure all work was performed and inspections completed. He failed to do that before flying the aircraft. Apparently for many years.
I would think the best course is to have you, Tom, inspect the aircraft and get it signed off for annual. I believe that the invoices would serve as "maintenance records" to some degree .. but the lack of annual entries could be an issue. As the owner/operator the ultimate responsibility lies with him. I'd keep it below the radar and consider it educational expense.

RT

 

[Norman]

It's a matter of trust, not who will loose what.

And that trust was broken/violated. As a retired A&P/IA I find this reprehensible. Anyone who would operate like that need his certificate revoked.

I'm thinking the feds may give the owner a break, but one never knows. Therefore it would be wise to get an aviation attorney involved, and have him present the case to the FSDO with paperwork and unsigned logs in hand.

After the feds have had their way with the offender, sue the BAS*ARD!

Not legal advise, just my opinion.

 

[Computerjim]

Someone should call the FSDO with a "hypothetical" question without giving up any names, locations, or other identifying data. If they say that the owner would get a by, throw the lazy, crooked, incompetent AI under the bus before he hurts somebody!

 

[N801BH]

If he has not already hurt, or even killed someone by his POOR business and mechanic skills........ Who knows..... this "cover your fellow A&P/IA and don't rat him/her out" might be the way this person has been able to get by this long.

This mechanic has been screwing this airplaine owner for YEARS... You can bet he has screwed dozens of others too..

 

[poadeleted21]

Someone should call the FSDO with a "hypothetical" question without giving up any names, locations, or other identifying data. If they say that the owner would get a by, throw the lazy, crooked, incompetent AI under the bus before he hurts somebody!

They won't speak to you on those terms. At least not in ny experience. I should probably send my resume in to R&W to see if im allowed to post my experience on the internet. But here goes. You will be giving them all your information before the conversation begins. They won't be "on your side". I don't mean that like they're against you, just that because someone is emotional, contacts them and is POed at a mechanic that they're just going to instantly be sympathetic to you and willing to ignore the fact that you flew a plane for a decade without so much as glancing at the log books.

 

[N747JB]

What are the odds that every other set of logbooks that this guy is holding are in the same condition? I doubt he picked this one owner's plane to ignore the sign offs Pretty good chance the guy has a drawer or cabinet full of logbooks that haven't been touched in YEARS!!
My AI keeps my log books and I do see them occasionally, but I trust him and his shop, I don't think I've kept my own logs in over 20 years, not since I started dealing with bigger shops. I've never had an issue, actually I probably have a better chance of losing them than the shop does!

 

[N801BH]

.... they're just going to instantly be sympathetic to you and willing to ignore the fact that you flew a plane for a decade without so much as glancing at the log books.

It all starts with trust......

This guy apparantly trusted this mechanic for years, and the owner might not be mechanically inclined at all so didn't want to read the logs as he assumed the "professional" was doing his job properly...

To me , log books are like medical records.. I pay BIG money to "Professionals" to look out for my best health.

Do I ask to read ALL my medical records .... NO....

Do I take those records home with me after each doctor visit .... NO......


If I come down with a fatal disease that could have been prevented if I had read my medical records, would I have blame.... HELL NO.. I put trust in PROFFESIONALS....

Without trust , you have nothing... IMHO..

 

[poadeleted21]

It all starts with trust......

This guy apparantly trusted this mechanic for years, and the owner might not be mechanically inclined at all so didn't want to read the logs as he assumed the "professional" was doing his job properly...

To me , log books are like medical records.. I pay BIG money to "Professionals" to look out for my best health.

Do I ask to read ALL my medical records .... NO....

Do I take those records home with me after each doctor visit .... NO......


If I come down with a fatal disease that could have been prevented if I had read my medical records, would I have blame.... HELL NO.. I put trust in PROFFESIONALS....

Without trust , you have nothing... IMHO..

Ignorance of the law doesn't absolve you. He owned and flew the plane. He is responsible keeping the plane legal if its to be flown. And is responsible for determining the airworthiness of it if he's going to be the one flying it. Given my limited experience with my FSDO. I wouldn't expect them to turn a blind eye to 10 years worth of the owners negligence and join him with pitch forks to go after the mechanic.

My guy emails me PDF copies of all the stickies he creates. I trust a guy who does stuff like that. Trust is earned. Not seeing my logbooks for 10 years wouldn't earn you a lot of my trust.

 

[N801BH]

Ignorance of the law doesn't absolve you. He owned and flew the plane. He is responsible keeping the plane legal if its to be flown. And is responsible for determining the airworthiness of it if he's going to be the one flying it. Given my limited experience with my FSDO. I wouldn't expect them to turn a blind eye to 10 years worth of the owners negligence and join him with pitch forks to go after the mechanic.

My guy emails me PDF copies of all the stickies he creates. I trust a guy who does stuff like that. Trust is earned. Not seeing my logbooks for 10 years wouldn't earn you a lot of my trust.

I respect your opinion......... Altho I disagree based on my theory previously posted..

 

[Henning]

Now you are starting the "cover for another fellow mechanic" thing....

Don't lay the guilt trip on the owner /pilot.. We all know he is responsible for confirming the plane is legal and airworthy,,, But if it took a court order and 1/2 hour of the mechanic "cussing and slamming drawers" before he give the log books to the owner then he has a great case to show the mechanic needs to look for another line of work... IMHO...

Not really a guilt trip, the FARs are black and white as to whose responsibility it it to assure the logging of maintenance.