A Few Class D Tower Com Questions

Timbeck2 said:
My guess is that initially what she wanted you to do, was enter the left traffic pattern for 21; the published pattern and report base. Then she realized that she had no other traffic, it was easier for you to make a right base especially if you were a full stop, and a right base didn't violate any noise abatement procedure. In other words, I don't think the controller made a mistake, I think that she allowed you to fly a non-standard pattern in order to make things easier for the both of you.
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There is no "published pattern" applicable to a towered airport, except when the tower is closed. Instructing a left base entry when arriving from a direction that places one in good position for a right base is, even if not common for controllers, a basic left/right/directional error I've heard, and made, and corrected more than once or twice.
 
Jns_V said:
Sorry for the slight thread hijack, but I have a question that probably fits here. I'm from Europe and there has mainly been flying out of an uncontrolled field with AFIS, so tower communications are not yet that natural for me.

So, I was approaching Santa Monica KSMO from Van Nuys KVNY and was handed over by Van Nuys Tower to Santa Monica Tower just over the mountains. It means that I was approaching KSMO rwy 21 (with a left-hand pattern) from roughly the right base direction. KSMO tower told me to make left base, rwy 21, which would have been a possible, but bit awkward manouver to me. I therefore asked the tower to confirm that she wanted me left base rwy 21, to which question she answered with right base, rwy 21 and shortly after issued a landing clearance. I landed accordingly, without any issues. There was no traffic established in the pattern. What do you thing, would the controller initially really liked me to fly to the other side of the aiport and join base from there? Were my actions correct? Had she confirmed the left base, where would it have been the best to cross the runway (extended centerline)?
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Your response to the Tower was perfect. That's because Tower controllers and not perfect. Assuming you were coming from a right base direction, left base makes no sense. Straight in makes more sense than left base.

If the Tower really wanted you to cross over the airport, the instructions would have told you what to do. If Tower confirmed left base without giving other instructions, I would ask what they wanted me to do. Actually I wouldn't "ask." My readback of the confirmed left base instruction would include what I thought was reasonable so Tower could tell me to do something else.
 
Okay fellas, I'm only going on what the man said which was:
So, I was approaching Santa Monica KSMO from Van Nuys KVNY and was handed over by Van Nuys Tower to Santa Monica Tower just over the mountains. It means that I was approaching KSMO rwy 21 (with a left-hand pattern) from roughly the right base direction. KSMO tower told me to make left base, rwy 21, which would have been a possible, but bit awkward manouver to me.

Published? I didn't look it up, just going by what the man said.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Your response to the Tower was perfect. That's because Tower controllers and not perfect. Assuming you were coming from a right base direction, left base makes no sense. Straight in makes more sense than left base.
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Yes. At my home field we would either do a base entry if coming from the direction of the pattern and a straight in with a longer final if coming from the direction of the other base. Thanks for confirming that I did the correct thing.

Timbeck2 said:
Published? I didn't look it up, just going by what the man said.
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Yes, it is.
 
"All towered airports have standard left patterns and published right patterns that apply when the Tower is closed. They are irrelevant when the Tower is open."

What? Let's talk about SMO. The AF/D for SMO states that runway 3 is right traffic and runway 21 is not stated so its automatically left traffic. So you're telling me that when the tower is open we and the controllers there can ignore the published right traffic notation to runway 3? Looks to me like there's noise abatement issues (as stated numerous times in the AF/D) that indicates all traffic should stay north of the runway. So you're telling me that when the tower is open they can disregard procedures?


What about towers with more than one runway? Know, what? It doesn't matter we are again focusing on semantics. Look Mark, the guy asked the forum's opinion on what may have happened on his flight into an airport. You gave your opinion and I gave mine. Since neither of us work at that tower or were on the guy's flight, can we agree that any opinion on the question would just be an assumption? If I let you be right and say the controller made a mistake would you stop humping my leg?
 
Don't towers issue left and right patterns all the time, regardless of the published pattern?

I've had cases where one pattern entry makes more sense that the one tower gave me. Sometimes it's a simple left/right mistake, and sometimes there is a good reason. A quick question to verify clears it up.
 
So you're telling me that when the tower is open we and the controllers there can ignore the published right traffic notation to runway 3?
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The controllers probably operate under their own local rules as to what approach paths they can route you on, but as far as the PILOT is concerned. He can do whatever ATC authorizes and if ATC doesn't tell me otherwise what pattern to make, I'm heading to the the piano keys by the most convenient direct path.
 
Matthew said:
Don't towers issue left and right patterns all the time, regardless of the published pattern
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They sure do, sometimes they have airplanes on both left traffic and right traffic for the same runway simultaneously.

Timbeck2 said:
So you're telling me that when the tower is open we and the controllers there can ignore the published right traffic notation to runway 3?
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What the controller is allowed or not allowed to do is not information the pilot is privy to. The pilot only has to follow the controller's instructions. When the instruction's don't make sense, a query is more than warranted.
 
dmspilot said:
They sure do, sometimes they have airplanes on both left traffic and right traffic for the same runway simultaneously.
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Yeah, it's always fun to be on a right base when someone else is on a left base for the same rwy.

(I thought I was missing something in the previous post mentioning tower being restricted to the A/FD published patterns.)
 
dmspilot said:
They sure do, sometimes they have airplanes on both left traffic and right traffic for the same runway simultaneously.



What the controller is allowed or not allowed to do is not information the pilot is privy to. The pilot only has to follow the controller's instructions. When the instruction's don't make sense, a query is more than warranted.
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And if the controller said "for noise abatement, I need you to fly over the runway and enter a left pattern for runway 21" then the query is answered.

None of us were there. None of us work at that tower. We can speculate all week long why the controller said what she said and it will get us nowhere. I'm not going to waste any more time arguing a moot point.
 
Timbeck2 said:
"All towered airports have standard left patterns and published right patterns that apply when the Tower is closed. They are irrelevant when the Tower is open."

What? Let's talk about SMO. The AF/D for SMO states that runway 3 is right traffic and runway 21 is not stated so its automatically left traffic. So you're telling me that when the tower is open we and the controllers there can ignore the published right traffic notation to runway 3? Looks to me like there's noise abatement issues (as stated numerous times in the AF/D) that indicates all traffic should stay north of the runway. So you're telling me that when the tower is open they can disregard procedures?


What about towers with more than one runway? Know, what? It doesn't matter we are again focusing on semantics. Look Mark, the guy asked the forum's opinion on what may have happened on his flight into an airport. You gave your opinion and I gave mine. Since neither of us work at that tower or were on the guy's flight, can we agree that any opinion on the question would just be an assumption? If I let you be right and say the controller made a mistake would you stop humping my leg?
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I'm not humping your leg. I'm not even aware of who wrote the post I responded to, The rule is simple.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I agree with most of what Ghery said.

I do ask for a frequency change when clear of the class D, "Big City Tower, N855WH, request frequency change." This has the benefit of last minute traffic notifications... "N855WH, I show an aircraft at your 2 o'clock, 3 miles, 2,500 indicated, opposite direction. Frequency change approved."

I disagree on the "when to exit the runway". Certainly do NOT exit onto a crossing runway unless told to do so, and DO exit onto a specific taxiway if told to do so and you can safely do so (if not, tell them!), but otherwise the AIM directs you to take the first available taxiway, taxi clear and call ground.
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Frequency Change asks and approvals are generally a thing of the past- almost never hear it anymore as it is just unnecessary radio traffic. However, I don't dispute your reason, except that are not providing separation services and have no obligation to tell you even if there is traffic at 1/4 mile and 12 o'clock.
 
Larry in TN said:
There is no "published pattern" at a tower-controlled airport.

14 CFR 91.129 -- Operations in Class D airspace.
(f) Approaches. Except when conducting a circling approach under Part 97 of this chapter or unless otherwise required by ATC, each pilot must--
(1) Circle the airport to the left, if operating an airplane; or​

Sounds like a miscommunication. Unless the airport has some local restrictions, such as noise abatement, airspace, or terrain, it would be unusual for a tower to have an airplane cross over the field to fly the opposite downwind or base.
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If you approach SBD from the north side, they'll have you cross over midfield to enter left downwind for 24.
 
Jns_V said:
Sorry for the slight thread hijack, but I have a question that probably fits here. I'm from Europe and there has mainly been flying out of an uncontrolled field with AFIS, so tower communications are not yet that natural for me.

So, I was approaching Santa Monica KSMO from Van Nuys KVNY and was handed over by Van Nuys Tower to Santa Monica Tower just over the mountains. It means that I was approaching KSMO rwy 21 (with a left-hand pattern) from roughly the right base direction. KSMO tower told me to make left base, rwy 21, which would have been a possible, but bit awkward manouver to me. I therefore asked the tower to confirm that she wanted me left base rwy 21, to which question she answered with right base, rwy 21 and shortly after issued a landing clearance. I landed accordingly, without any issues. There was no traffic established in the pattern. What do you thing, would the controller initially really liked me to fly to the other side of the aiport and join base from there? Were my actions correct? Had she confirmed the left base, where would it have been the best to cross the runway (extended centerline)?
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I think your query was perfect because, in my limited experience, being told to make a “left base” only happens when I can get there on a long base leg and don’t need to do a downwind leg, much less overfly the airport and do a downwind leg.

I've never flown to SMO from the north, but as you noted, SMO’s runway 21 is normally left traffic. Every time I’ve approached from the south, I’ve gotten the expected “make left traffic runway 21.”

For what it’s worth, though, here’s a video of a pilot who exits the Mini Route over LAX and approaches SMO from the south too, just like I normally do, but he’s told to “overly the field and make RIGHT traffic runway 21” (jump to 2:54):

I’m guessing that tower made the changeup in this video for spacing.

Consistent with what I’m reading here, it seems that tower can and will change things up to make it all work.
 
register@teamandras.com said said:
I'm guessing that tower made the changeup in this video for spacing.

Consistent with what I'm reading here, it seems that tower can and will change things up to make it all work
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That's what they do. The traffic pattern rules are there for non-towered airports for safety reasons - to avoid collisions. At a towered airport, ATC supervises the spacing so that two airplanes don't land on the runway with insufficient spacing between them. So the same issue isn't there and direction of traffic rules don't apply.

What a pilot can usually expect, if traffic, abatement, and terrain (such as in @ircphoenix 's KSBD example) issues are not a factor, is being instructed to approach and enter a pattern by the most direct means available, based on the pilot's position report. Consider as an example a north-south single runway 18/36. 18 is in use. You are flying in and your initial call-in is "8 South." I've heard Towers respond with, "Southeast or Southwest?" That's not questioning the accuracy of the report or asking you do start doing calculations. It's asking you whether a right or left downwind entry would be more appropriate.

Those who rarely fly into towered airports, especially busy ones, might be surprised by the number of variations ATC can come up with to "make things work."
 
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As a former tower controller, one can have an aircraft enter the pattern in the most efficient manner as long as it's not contrary to local procedures. Pilot specific requests can be approved the same way as long as local procedures aren't violated.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Now you're posting videos and attributing comments to me? Really?
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Hi Tim, if directed at me, I certainly wasn't trying to attribute any comments to you. I just posted the video because I remembered watching it once and it relates to Santa Monica (KSMO), the same airport mentioned by "Jns_V" in post #37.
 
Oh, I see, Mark's post #57 has my thoughts from the bottom of my post #56 incorrectly attributed to you rather than me. That's weird. It was probably just "operator error."
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Hi Tim, if directed at me, I certainly wasn't trying to attribute any comments to you. I just posted the video because I remembered watching it once and it relates to Santa Monica (KSMO), the same airport mentioned by "Jns_V" in post #37.
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Wow. I have no idea how... Oh! It's that new "keep the old post you cancelled in the reply box" the new forum software does.

Sorry. I'll fix it.
 
Jns_V said:
Sorry for the slight thread hijack, but I have a question that probably fits here. I'm from Europe and there has mainly been flying out of an uncontrolled field with AFIS, so tower communications are not yet that natural for me.

So, I was approaching Santa Monica KSMO from Van Nuys KVNY and was handed over by Van Nuys Tower to Santa Monica Tower just over the mountains. It means that I was approaching KSMO rwy 21 (with a left-hand pattern) from roughly the right base direction. KSMO tower told me to make left base, rwy 21, which would have been a possible, but bit awkward manouver to me. I therefore asked the tower to confirm that she wanted me left base rwy 21, to which question she answered with right base, rwy 21 and shortly after issued a landing clearance. I landed accordingly, without any issues. There was no traffic established in the pattern. What do you thing, would the controller initially really liked me to fly to the other side of the aiport and join base from there? Were my actions correct? Had she confirmed the left base, where would it have been the best to cross the runway (extended centerline)?
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I say you're action was correct. Things have to pass the "logic check". This scenario didn't. That's not to say you should question every pattern entry instruction you get just because it doesn't seem like the best way to you. Her saying make left traffic RW 21, report downwind is one thing. Make "left base" RW 21 from the direction you were coming from is another. If she had confirmed left base you very definitely should have asked how she wanted it done.

When things don't pass "the logic check" , the next word said from the pilot should be "verify"
 
midlifeflyer said:
Wow. I have no idea how... Oh! It's that new "keep the old post you cancelled in the reply box" the new forum software does.

Sorry. I'll fix it.
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I have found that to completely delete a draft and not have it reappear, you need to delete it and wait about 30 seconds. A brief "draft deleted" message will flash on the screen. It's subtle, just like the "draft saved" message.
 
SMO controller meant "right base" and not "left base." If she wanted you on left traffic she would have had you pass over the field for a left downwind. Just miscommunication. Happens.

As far as "published patterns" I suppose that depends on what you define as published. Every facility I worked at had published pattern procedures. They may or may not be in the usual formats (DOD / JEPP FLIPs, etc) but they are published
 
ircphoenix said:
If you approach SBD from the north side, they'll have you cross over midfield to enter left downwind for 24.
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14 CFR 91.129 -- Operations in Class D airspace.
(f) Approaches. Except when conducting a circling approach under Part 97 of this chapter or unless otherwise required by ATC, each pilot must--​

If a tower is in operation then it is left traffic unless the tower gives different instructions. Anything published about non-standard patterns is for when the tower is not in operation.
 
Absolutely.

I was referring to your statement
"Unless the airport has some local restrictions, such as noise abatement, airspace, or terrain, it would be unusual for a tower to have an airplane cross over the field to fly the opposite downwind or base."

Not that unusual, really.
 
Larry in TN said:
14 CFR 91.129 -- Operations in Class D airspace.
(f) Approaches. Except when conducting a circling approach under Part 97 of this chapter or unless otherwise required by ATC, each pilot must--​

If a tower is in operation then it is left traffic unless the tower gives different instructions. Anything published about non-standard patterns is for when the tower is not in operation.
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Well you could have inserted what the rule ACTUALLY SAYS which is
"Circle the airport to the left, if operating an airplane;"

The only time I can imagine circling an airport is if I busted in NORDO and was waiting for a light gun.

I've operated NORDO at a class D and I got the light gun before I had to "circle. I've also operated NORDO at the class B primary a few times. No circling there either (and tower was very happy that I did not).
 
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I did not think that my question would start such a length discussion, but thanks to all who participated. It is now much more clear to me what to expect from a class D tower.
 
Timbeck2 said:
"All towered airports have standard left patterns and published right patterns that apply when the Tower is closed. They are irrelevant when the Tower is open."

What? Let's talk about SMO. The AF/D for SMO states that runway 3 is right traffic and runway 21 is not stated so its automatically left traffic. So you're telling me that when the tower is open we and the controllers there can ignore the published right traffic notation to runway 3? Looks to me like there's noise abatement issues (as stated numerous times in the AF/D) that indicates all traffic should stay north of the runway. So you're telling me that when the tower is open they can disregard procedures?


What about towers with more than one runway? Know, what? It doesn't matter we are again focusing on semantics. Look Mark, the guy asked the forum's opinion on what may have happened on his flight into an airport. You gave your opinion and I gave mine. Since neither of us work at that tower or were on the guy's flight, can we agree that any opinion on the question would just be an assumption? If I let you be right and say the controller made a mistake would you stop humping my leg?
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Matthew said:
Don't towers issue left and right patterns all the time, regardless of the published pattern?

I've had cases where one pattern entry makes more sense that the one tower gave me. Sometimes it's a simple left/right mistake, and sometimes there is a good reason. A quick question to verify clears it up.
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Matthew said:
Yeah, it's always fun to be on a right base when someone else is on a left base for the same rwy.

(I thought I was missing something in the previous post mentioning tower being restricted to the A/FD published patterns.)
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I fly out of OLM. We have a tower open from 8 am to 8 pm. Having the tower clear someone to fly an opposite pattern than what the A/FD calls out is not uncommon. And I have seen (and been involved with) traffic in left and right patterns simultaneously. That darned 150 was significantly slower than the 182 I was flying and I finally caught up with him and the tower simply had me fly the other way. No problem. And, when there has been the possibility of two aircraft converging if they both turn base at about the time the tower simply has one extend his downwind a bit. Again, not a problem.

The OP questioned the logic of the instruction he was given, asked the tower for a different entry and it was granted. No harm, no foul and welcome to flying in the US. Come on up the the Pacific Northwe(s)t when the weather gets better. We'd love to see you up here.
 
ProspectivePilotPete said:
I'm going up with my CFI for a Class D refresher, but I would like to know the answers to these questions that, to be completely honest, I'd be embarrassed to ask my CFI, as I feel like I should know them. Hence the awesome power of the anonymous internet! Anyway, some questions I was thinking up as I thought back on previous experiences and thought through my process.
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Please allow me to suggest that the only stupid or silly question is the one your don't ask! Aviation isn't an entirely simple and straightforward activity, and there are a lot of moving parts in this activity. I used to feel like you do about asking the questions you think you should know the answer to. I took some time off of flying for a while, and when I came back I was about a decade older and more grounded in my thinking. I fly with instructors more than I need to, and ask them more questions than I probably need to. Being a better pilot involves seeking out these answers, and I don't care if a CFI thinks I'm dumb for asking :)

With that said, I'm sure that Class D stuff will come to you quickly. I was kind of the opposite. I did all of my initial flying out of a Class D, and I'm flying out of a Class D now. For me it seemed like learning the intricacies of non-towered airports was more challenging for me.


Here's how my usual communication goes at our local Class D (and I know we have some controllers from my tower on this site, so hopefully they'll chime in with any information concerning things they don't like about my method). NOTE: I'm just a GA pilot having fun, and I'm not an ATC operator. But, here's how it goes for me (and this will hopefully answer some of your questions about takeoff):

This is from initial call-up on the ground frequency (121.7 at my field, KBJC):

"Metro Ground, Cessna 12345 is at (place on airport) with Foxtrot (or whatever the current ATIS information is), taxiing for a VFR departure to the north"

"Cessna 12345, taxi RWY 30R via Romeo 4 and Alpha"

"30R via R4 and Alpha, Cessna 12345"

After taxiing I do my run-up and pre-takeoff checklists, I then position at the hold-short line for my runway and call the tower (118.6 at my airport)

"Metro Tower, Cessna 12345 is ready for takeoff, holding short of 30R"

The reply varies, but it is usually straightforward and consists of something like:

"Cessna 12345 hold short of 30R for traffic on final"

or

"Cessna 12345, lineup and wait"

or

"Cessna 12345, cleared for takeoff, right turn approved"

or

"Cessna 12345, cleared for takeoff, fly runway heading"
 
Coloradokevin said:
Please allow me to suggest that the only stupid or silly question is the one your don't ask! Aviation isn't an entirely simple and straightforward activity, and there are a lot of moving parts in this activity. I used to feel like you do about asking the questions you think you should know the answer to. I took some time off of flying for a while, and when I came back I was about a decade older and more grounded in my thinking. I fly with instructors more than I need to, and ask them more questions than I probably need to. Being a better pilot involves seeking out these answers, and I don't care if a CFI thinks I'm dumb for asking :)

With that said, I'm sure that Class D stuff will come to you quickly. I was kind of the opposite. I did all of my initial flying out of a Class D, and I'm flying out of a Class D now. For me it seemed like learning the intricacies of non-towered airports was more challenging for me.


Here's how my usual communication goes at our local Class D (and I know we have some controllers from my tower on this site, so hopefully they'll chime in with any information concerning things they don't like about my method). NOTE: I'm just a GA pilot having fun, and I'm not an ATC operator. But, here's how it goes for me (and this will hopefully answer some of your questions about takeoff):

This is from initial call-up on the ground frequency (121.7 at my field, KBJC):

"Metro Ground, Cessna 12345 is at (place on airport) with Foxtrot (or whatever the current ATIS information is), taxiing for a VFR departure to the north"

"Cessna 12345, taxi RWY 30R via Romeo 4 and Alpha"

"30R via R4 and Alpha, Cessna 12345"

After taxiing I do my run-up and pre-takeoff checklists, I then position at the hold-short line for my runway and call the tower (118.6 at my airport)

"Metro Tower, Cessna 12345 is ready for takeoff, holding short of 30R"

The reply varies, but it is usually straightforward and consists of something like:

"Cessna 12345 hold short of 30R for traffic on final"

or

"Cessna 12345, lineup and wait"

or

"Cessna 12345, cleared for takeoff, right turn approved"

or

"Cessna 12345, cleared for takeoff, fly runway heading"
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The only thing I would change here is when you are getting ready for takeoff. The word takeoff should only be used in conjunction with a takeoff clearance. You should say, XXXXX tower, Cessna 12345 holding short runway 30R, ready for departure.
 
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