[A] 6PC is not a Grumman owner

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

May the force be with you
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after exchanging MANY MANY emails and phone calls, I buy completely random plane tickets apparently to go see a stunning traveler w/ all the mods that pretty much make it a Cheetah minus the larger stab.

In my emails I would ask fancy questions like:
"Does it have any corrosion"?
"How about Hail Damage"?
"Whats the useful load?"
And the list goes on.

Those questions were all sent to the owner's son who placed the ad and was managing the sell.
Owner (Dad) picks me up in Raleigh. Nicest guy I could ever want to meet.
Drove an hour to pick me hp, Hired an instructor to fly me in the plane, bought my lunch and wouldn't take a penny from me.

Idle chit chat turns to me going
"so just want to confirm there is no damage, corrosion, etc"

Dad: "Well there is corrosion in the main spar but my MX is an engineer and I trust him. He said it is not an issue but treated it so there are no concerns there.

At this point I want to go home.

We arrive at the plane and it appears to me that it might have been painted by a couple guys in a hangar. There is what appears to be bondo on the belly that is painted over. There are spots in several places where it looks like chipped paint (or possibly rust) had been painted over.

Hail damage all over the wings.

I S*** you not... I climb in and the owner has taken a sharpie to the dash to color part of it in.
This picture is from the ad juxtaposed against a photo I took of the dash

00sjharpie.jpg
SHARPIE!!!!!!! C'mon!!!

A lot of the body looked like this. I used to be poor and own a mustang that was rusted out. I put bondo all over it and painted over it. Very similar to this aircraft.
002.jpg



I asked about the hail damage and he said "That go there before we bought the plane but it never looked like that. We stripped the paint to repaint it and there was all this bondo so we removed it and repainted it and that's why you see all the dents"

The ailerons were really bad. The photo doesn't do it justice.
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So we have corrosion (treated though) hail damage, UL was 20 less than stated (not a major factor) Covering up cosmetic scratches w/ a sharpie.

Then seller goes "If you need to touch anything up, here" Pulls paint cans out of his trunk and tells me his son was there this morning making some touch-ups to the paint so it would look nice.

The plane started up in a flash and ran strong as can be and performed okay but I just kept thinking in the back of my mind, there are some surprises here and there shouldn't be. There are things that are different than stated and everything seems a little makeshift.

He said it has a fuel leak but he thinks he's got it stopped.

Again, nicest guy in the world and I don't think he was shady. I think he believes he has a really nice plane (and he may well have) but I get the feeling that he sort of hacks away on things on the plane and has his mechanic check it or something.

Who knows someone may buy this and end up with a really great aircraft but I just kept thinking "I am not willing to put my kids in this plane" So I am not going to pursue it.

If you are selling a plane, Disclose everything before they spend their time and money.
If he would have been blatantly honest, I would have probably had it inspected but due to what I am going to call trust issues, I am moving on.

He was very surprised when I said I want to call his mx and also schedule an annual on the plane.
He said he never did a pre buy. He just flew it and bought it.

Next.
 
That stinks. Sorry to hear it. (In before the joking!)
 
As I mentioned in another forum, sounds sooooo similar to a trip I took to look at an orange AA-1A once, that it's almost eerie. Sorry you got to enjoy the "fun" of such weirdness, but it forever changed how I went about looking at aircraft condition, buying or not, that's for sure.
 
I can't believe you're not more ****ed off. I would have been furious. While I was searching for a plane I test flew a Tiger. It was a nice airplane but had the crappiest paint job. It looked good from a distance though.

When I arrived for the test flight the owner explained that the night before he took a deposit on the plane from an out of state buyer. So I asked if I decided to buy it I was second in line? He said yes. I wished he would have shared that with me before I made the trip over for the test flight. Fortunately, it was only 50 miles so at least I got a chance to ride my motorcycle over.

The rest of the story. The out of state buyer flew the Tiger & said he thought the plane was too hot for his experience so he didn't buy. In that few days that transpired, I had decided that I really wanted a 182. I bought one a few weeks later,

Good luck with your search.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Nicest guy I could ever want to meet. Drove an hour to pick me hp, Hired an instructor to fly me in the plane, bought my lunch and wouldn't take a penny from me.
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They are nice like that here in NC. Tell me, when you told him you were not buying the plane did he say "Well bless your heart"? That is a true sign of how nice they can be. ;)
 
I really wish U would have sent me there to take a look first. Prob coulda saved u the time and moolah. Anyways, there will be more planes. Some of them will be better than this one.
 
Man, sorry to hear Bryan. I used to own a really nice AA-5. Cleaned up really well and no corrosion; spar corrosion would definitely be a no go. Bought all the little interior pieces and got the STC on the tail light. Loved that plane but just didn't have the speed / range I wanted.

I know it seems like these people really believe what they're selling is a quality aircraft but I've seen / heard too many of these stories. They tell you over the phone or email about how nice it is. Then come to find out it's either a POS or at least one or two defects left out of the description. These people are either living in a dream world and we have two very different opinions on "nice," or they're just shady. I've come to think the later in recent years.

You get another prospect in the SE area let me know. I've looked at a AA-5 in SAV once for a guy. The usual stuff; hail damage, bondo, rattle can paint and out dated panel. Next.
 
What is it with seriously substandard paint jobs in NC? The plane I bought there is fine but looks like it was painted in Bubba's back yard, with an electric paint sprayer, by a blind guy. I'm gonna have to strip the whole thing at some point. The only good news is that Bubba had never heard of scuffing, etching, alodine or primer... so most of it comes off pretty easy.
 
Man that sucks. Looked like a nice plane. Deal fell through on the first one I went to buy. Ended up being a blessing and I ended up with a much nicer plane.
 
I'm not mad. To be honest I enjoy the adventure. Of course this was going to be a 50-50 shot at best. yesterday I got to get up super early and go fly to a state I haven't been to and then fly a plane I've never flown and then go to Atlanta which I've never been to go to the wrong part of Texas. It's just all an adventure. and I still have all my money. So there's that
 
Geez - that should have been disclosed. Sorry to read that you had to go through the trouble and expense to fly out there to really see the damage. I can understand the guy was really nice, but he has motivation to be... he wants to sell his plane! You asked the right question: If it's not good enough to put your kids/family into, then it's not the right plane.

I went to see a plane one state away that had hail damage. Dealt with the nicest guy (broker) you could meet and he fully disclosed everything before I got there, including the hail damage and some other cosmetic details. He actually made the hail damage sound worse than it visually appeared in person. I didn't buy that plane (in hind sight, I wish I had) but that trip was worth the effort. Yours sounds like an unfortunate waste of time and money. But there will be another... keep looking! Good luck!
 
Ugh. That wing and aileron look like the surface of the moon. Sharpie re-touch on the control panel looks better than the "before" pic, but still cheesy.

It might be a solid aircraft, but there'd be no pride of ownership with all the cosmetic flaws. There must've been a terrible pit in your stomach when you first laid eyes on it, having higher expectations and all.
 
Sounds like a trip I made to Houston from MD for a Comanche. Consider yourself lucky, you could spot the lies. Mine cost me the trip plus a couple grand to find the improperly repaired belly damage.

I ended up looking at six or seven over a period of a couple years before I found what I wanted.
Consider it paying karmic dues.
Keep looking, it's out there.
 
Would it have been that hard to just pull the throttle and strip and shoot that panel?

Really, I don't get half arsing it, doesn't save much time, or much money, and it is the difference from having a nice plane, and a POS.

If it had been me, and it was just the sharpie, I'd have walked, or offered scrap value, if he did that, god knows what other little hidden gems you'll find.
 
well....this is why we do due diligence. Sounds like everything worked....and fortunately you didn't end up buying a dud. ;)
 
Still looks better than the one at KEYQ :p
 
eman1200 said:
I really wish U would have sent me there to take a look first. Prob coulda saved u the time and moolah. Anyways, there will be more planes. Some of them will be better than this one.
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That really isn't too bad of an idea, having a fellow POA dude or dudette take a preliminary look at an airplane for you. Not a pre-buy but a little recon to see if it is a real fugly pos or not and to get a few pics that doesn't just show the good side.
 
Sorry Brian, but it worked out for the best. First plane I looked at was in Florida. The wife and I get tickets to go look at it after many phone calls and photos. Should have known as I was only talking to the wife who was a pilot and owned the plane with her husband, never talked to him. He was also the A&P for the plane. Get there, nicest people in the world, lived on a private strip. Looked at the plane and the baggage area smelled of fuel. He said he had spilled a little out of a can he had had back there. The paint was sevicable but certainly not like the pictures. Some of the wiring was visible in the dash, but otherwise not terrible. Took it for a ride, engine ran strong, all guages seemed funtional, so off we go with him in the left seat. 10 minutes after take off the vacuum pump quit, and I had to tell him. Strongly suggested we turn back to his airport and he looked around and said he did not know where it was. Fortunately I was paying attention, asked for control and took us back in. When we got back in his wife and mine had a big supper laid out for us, and they had even invited the neighbors. Nicest people in the world. Turns out he was in the beginning stages of dementia, did not have a medical and that is why they were selling. Would have been nice to know before hand. All the man wanted to talk about was his time in the Navy and being an engineer in his later career. He had been retired for 15 years. I passed on the plane, but a month later they called, fixed the vacuum pump and cut the price in half. I later heard they finally sold it for much less. Learning experience, you can't beat it if you live through it. You will find what you want.
 
My <hard earned> rule of thumb in those situations is to take the first surprise as an "oops" by the seller. The second one means it is time to head home.

Anyone can overlook one thing. But when the story has two odd turns, or the airplane/car/house/boat has two "I never noticed that before" flaws, it is time to walk. Something ain't right.
 
Sorry it didn't work out for you. All that built-up excitement squashed in an instant, lol. I've been Tiger hunting for about 6 months. Most of the plane's I've been interested in were on opposite sides of the country (I'm in California). A few months back I was planning to fly to Georgia later in the week when some guy contacted the seller out of the blue and bought it the next day. I luckily came across a beautiful Tiger that was only 10 miles away from me! Did the pre-buy inspection last week and should be closing on it in a couple of days.
 
You can never really tell about some people. Years ago I had a '47 Chevy 5 window PU that was in really bad shape. I decided to sell it, and I really described it as it was. I took pictures of all the rust places, body work that had been repaired with lead, and everything I could find wrong with it, which was a lot.

One good thing about it was it was all complete, no missing pieces, including the spare tire and original working AM tube radio. Plus it did run and was drivable, but not registered. One guy emailed me for specific pictures which I did. When he arrived to look at it, he blew his top and started yelling at me that I had totally misrepresented the condition of the vehicle. He claimed that I told him it was in perfect condition and that he would be able to drive it home. Neither of which I claimed.

Ok, come into my shop and accuse me of lying in front of my very redneck friends, then accuse my very redneck friends of being liars, then start hopping around and acting like its time to start swinging at me in my shop and in front of my friends. Well we threw him out on his duff. Then he walked back in as if nothing happened and still wanted to buy my truck. :dunno:
 
Isn't Fletchair down near San Antonio? I'd be in contact with them - they should have a handle on some good sorta-local airplanes. When one comes up for sale, have 'em give you a call.
 
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That wasn't hail damage, that was dimpling to make it go faster..... like a golf ball.
 
Unless you're someone with a ton of air miles or non-rev privileges, limiting your search to planes within a day's round-trip drive away makes the process much easier. Sure, you may miss a few good ones but unless you're looking for an oddball airplane, you'll eventually find what you're looking for.
 
Brad Z said:
Unless you're someone with a ton of air miles or non-rev privileges, limiting your search to planes within a day's round-trip drive away makes the process much easier. Sure, you may miss a few good ones but unless you're looking for an oddball airplane, you'll eventually find what you're looking for.
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Grummans are pseudo-oddballs. They made a fair number of 'em, but in the ensuing 30-40 years, some were crashed, some turned into hangar queens, some were neglected, and a few are candidates for a discriminating buyer.
 
kyleb said:
Grummans are pseudo-oddballs. They made a fair number of 'em, but in the ensuing 30-40 years, some were crashed, some turned into hangar queens, some were neglected, and a few are candidates for a discriminating buyer.
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That can be said about most of our planes, can't it?
 
There is a tiger for sale now down in Texas area for a really good price on trade a plane.
 
Hank S said:
That can be said about most of our planes, can't it?
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I'd say there were 5-10 times as many 172's and Cherokees built as 4 seat Grummans.

And it isn't that easy to find a nice 40 YO Cherokee or 172. Grummans are that much harder...
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'm not mad. To be honest I enjoy the adventure. Of course this was going to be a 50-50 shot at best. yesterday I got to get up super early and go fly to a state I haven't been to and then fly a plane I've never flown and then go to Atlanta which I've never been to go to the wrong part of Texas. It's just all an adventure. and I still have all my money. So there's that
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Weren't you involved in a thread that we discussed the cost of chasing aircraft to buy?
it is no surprised that many of the aircraft we traveled so see is not what we want to buy.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I asked about the hail damage and he said "That go there before we bought the plane but it never looked like that. We stripped the paint to repaint it and there was all this bondo so we removed it and repainted it and that's why you see all the dents".
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You ungrateful bastard Bryan! My God man, he removed the bondo for you and now your useful load would be greater! ;)

My advice below:

upload_2016-11-20_19-31-36.png

Run Forest Run!
 
denverpilot said:
As I mentioned in another forum, sounds sooooo similar to a trip I took to look at an orange AA-1A once, that it's almost eerie. Sorry you got to enjoy the "fun" of such weirdness, but it forever changed how I went about looking at aircraft condition, buying or not, that's for sure.
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Was it in OK? There was an orange Yankee based in Chickasha, OK a few years ago.


Sorry you didn't find the one 6PC. It's a bummer you went that far out of your way for a lemon, but it sounds like you have the right attitude. Good luck on the next one.
 
OkieFlyer said:
Was it in OK? There was an orange Yankee based in Chickasha, OK a few years ago.
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It needed more work than I wanted to put into it back then, and had missing logs. Maybe someone loved it more than I could back then. Plus it wouldn't have flown well up here.

Who knows if it is the same plane. If it is, it was in Ohio in the very early 90s.
 
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