62 year old with no savings?!

PaulS said:
Actually it's mostly a by product of people who don't take personal responsibility for their well being. No one forces you to spend all your money on non essentials, such as eating out, toys, expensive cars, cable tv, vacations, the list goes on and on.
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I'm of two minds on this whole statement... I believe people should take personal responsiblity for their finances, I learned coming from a family that honestly wasn't (and still isn't) great at it.

However, in our society, people are discouraged from thinking about their financial responsiblities and their future needs. It's all about the here and now, buy a new car, new house, new phone, new widget, etc. It's a learned behavior, yes, but it's an incredibly difficult one to break.

I still struggle at times, I'm not in the financial position I want to be in but I still spend money on stupid crap I don't need. I've also got to work with my wife on our spending habits, and she came from a more financially irresponsible family than I did.

Basically I guess my opinion is; as much as bailing people out from their own mistakes ****es me off, I also can't hold them 100% responsible because as a society we don't do anything to encourage them to learn (before or after they make mistakes).
 
Fredbob711 said:
Basically I guess my opinion is; as much as bailing people out from their own mistakes ****es me off, I also can't hold them 100% responsible because as a society we don't do anything to encourage them to learn (before or after they make mistakes).
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Right there is the problem. Yes, people are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT responsible for their choices. "Blaming society" or "the culture" is what got us in the mess we're in. It transfers the responsibility to others, which is the thin end of the wedge of destruction.
 
PaulS said:
The market doesn't force any of that behavior, that is all free will choices made by people who fall for it. Nothing you do can help those people if they refuse to think and keep falling for it. Capitalism has created more wealth for more people than all the other "systems" combined. You are free to make what ever choice you wish to make, you are not free from the consequences of those choices.
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Of course it doesn't force it, it preys on people's trust, gullibility, and stupidity. Without it the market does not function. Where do you think the money that pays your investments comes from? It is all very easy to understand if you follow the money.
 
Fredbob711 said:
I'm of two minds on this whole statement... I believe people should take personal responsiblity for their finances, I learned coming from a family that honestly wasn't (and still isn't) great at it.

However, in our society, people are discouraged from thinking about their financial responsiblities and their future needs. It's all about the here and now, buy a new car, new house, new phone, new widget, etc. It's a learned behavior, yes, but it's an incredibly difficult one to break.

I still struggle at times, I'm not in the financial position I want to be in but I still spend money on stupid crap I don't need. I've also got to work with my wife on our spending habits, and she came from a more financially irresponsible family than I did.

Basically I guess my opinion is; as much as bailing people out from their own mistakes ****es me off, I also can't hold them 100% responsible because as a society we don't do anything to encourage them to learn (before or after they make mistakes).
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And your situation is fine as far as I am concerned and I'm sure it is the reality for many people. At least you understand the problem in your statement "I still spend money on stupid crap I don't need". Many don't and continually lay the blame on others or on the markets. We control our destiny barring catastrophic health or natural disasters.

The only time money is forcibly taken from us is when we pay taxes.
 
This whole thread reminds me of the fable about the 5 blind men trying to describe an elephant.

Just maybe there really is more than one cause or explanation for the OPs friend. And perhaps different people may wind up in a similar situation for a completely different set of reasons.
 
Becky said:
Right there is the problem. Yes, people are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT responsible for their choices. "Blaming society" or "the culture" is what got us in the mess we're in. It transfers the responsibility to others, which is the thin end of the wedge of destruction.
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If you hadn't put 'one hundred percent' in all caps I might have let this go. However, we can also look at the fedguv for part of the conditions we are in. Employees, and even non-employees are eligible for retirement benefits that are forced on those who work. in the US, SS is not an optional future retirement savings plan. The fedguv gets a nice chunk of each dollar you earn, on the day you are paid. For long time wage-earners, they pretty much look at that big deduction from every paycheck over their working lives and think; 'well, the govt owes me. I paid in, and now it is time to get back'.

I guess in a roundabout way, since the electorate elected the congress which wrote the SS bill and passed the senate and prez, eventually you are correct in that we are 100% responsible. However, there are and were a lot of people who didn't want, and don't endorse the SS system, but there is absolutely no opt out as a member of our 'society'.
 
PaulS said:
And your situation is fine as far as I am concerned and I'm sure it is the reality for many people. At least you understand the problem in your statement "I still spend money on stupid crap I don't need". Many don't and continually lay the blame on others or on the markets. We control our destiny barring catastrophic health or natural disasters.

The only time money is forcibly taken from us is when we pay taxes.
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There is no need to force upon people what what you lead them to desire, that's what advertising and media are what they are. It isn't done through force, it is done through lies selling you the dream of a better life. If you drink this beer, you'll get these tits, if you drive this car, you'll get this *****.
 
Gerhardt said:
I've never found having kids to be THAT expensive. But they're what makes life worth living. Houses, cars, other toys are nice but don't even come close to the joy I have with my two kids. And they're nowhere near driving anyone to the poor house. Unless you're the kind of person who wants to spend $50K on graduations, weddings, etc.
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I don't think I should bring another human to life for my own joy or to make my life worth living. If I do so, I'll be self-centered (talking about myself, no offense to anyone). I can easily get the joy in my life by many other things including traveling, flying, etc. May be not to the degree you mentioned. But I can live without that just fine.

Most people who oppose the idea already have kids, and they say that they can't live without those kids. Totally understandable. The question is not about what to do with the kids we already have. It's about starting to have new kids and the rationale behind this decision.
 
Henning said:
Of course it doesn't force it, it preys on people's trust, gullibility, and stupidity. Without it the market does not function. Where do you think the money that pays your investments comes from? It is all very easy to understand if you follow the money.
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Caveat emptor, I learned the meaning of that phrase very young. I was fortunate to be raised by parents who had been raised during the depression, understood the value of money and were willing to say no when I "fell victim to the market", teaching me not to live beyond my means and to save money for a rainy day.

The victim mentality is always intriguing to me. People love to blame "evil corporations" for their ills and the miserable consequences of their own actions. I'm willing to bet most people on this board work for or own corporations and do not consider themselves or the corporations evil.
 
I don't feel right about bringing new life into a situation where they will face extinction, it's gonna get really ugly soon if something doesn't change.
 
For the record, I NEVER intended to offer this chap advice, I was just curious as to what, if anything, could be said to a person with very few options. It's like a game of survival in my head.

I made no judgement of him, nor did I look down on him. I was more fascinated than I was wanting to offer him advice. It's just that in my neck of the woods, finding someone this desolate is like seeing a unicorn, or so I thought.
 
valittu said:
For the record, I NEVER intended to offer this chap advice, I was just curious as to what, if anything, could be said to a person with very few options. It's like a game of survival in my head.

I made no judgement of him, nor did I look down on him. I was more fascinated than I was wanting to offer him advice. It's just that in my neck of the woods, finding someone this desolate is like seeing a unicorn, or so I thought.
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You may want to observe how he manages, you may learn something useful.
 
how could one help a fella who's happy just to have $5 in his pocket?...I don't believe there's a need nor a cure for that. :rolleyes:
valittu said:
For the record, I NEVER intended to offer this chap advice, I was just curious as to what, if anything, could be said to a person with very few options. It's like a game of survival in my head.

I made no judgement of him, nor did I look down on him. I was more fascinated than I was wanting to offer him advice. It's just that in my neck of the woods, finding someone this desolate is like seeing a unicorn, or so I thought.
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Henning said:
I don't feel right about bringing new life into a situation where they will face extinction, it's gonna get really ugly soon if something doesn't change.
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I think this is true as do many I speak with. The American public has had a bellyful of trickle down economics. Art laffer should be in a mentally impaired ward.
 
Speaking as one who has fathered kids, I want to thank those of you who decide it's not a good idea to bring them into this world. Truly, you are doing a great benevolent favor to the rest of society.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I think this is true as do many I speak with. The American public has had a bellyful of trickle down economics. Art laffer should be in a mentally impaired ward.
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You have your reaganisms mixed up there.
 
docmirror said:
Speaking as one who has fathered kids, I want to thank those of you who decide it's not a good idea to bring them into this world. Truly, you are doing a great benevolent favor to the rest of society.
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Not really. Your (and mine) kids will have to feed them in old age. And no, it doesn't matter if you can 'live off your investments' in old age. Without kids and growth, those investments will be worth nothing.
 
docmirror said:
Speaking as one who has fathered kids, I want to thank those of you who decide it's not a good idea to bring them into this world. Truly, you are doing a great benevolent favor to the rest of society.
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No, we are taking responsibility only for the welfare of those who would become our progeny. There are better universes to come into.
 
denverpilot said:
Don't know what a VanGo is but there's plenty of senior vans and short busses in the parking lots of WalMarts around here late mornings. I haven't seen any particular aversion to them going to WalMart anywhere, but there's a lot of WalMarts. Have you? It so that's fascinating. The ones around here just started delivery service, too. I've seen their trucks out here in the Styx getting utterly pounded by the dirt roads. I imagine they happily deliver to senior care living places where there's still pavement.
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There are exactly 4 WalMarts in VT, and lots of people who live far enough from one to not have any way of getting to them. I have not seen any that deliver around here.

This is a state that fights hard to keep cheap national brands out - in the name of boosting the local economy - yet their kids go to bed hungry every night.
 
weilke said:
Not really. Your (and mine) kids will have to feed them in old age. And no, it doesn't matter if you can 'live off your investments' in old age. Without kids and growth, those investments will be worth nothing.
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We need a 'facetious' emoticon. I was being a wise acre. ;)
 
Cat food is a poor choice if you are looking to subsist. You will probably lose weight on it. The protein is so high it would be the ultimate Atkin's Diet.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I think this is true as do many I speak with. The American public has had a bellyful of trickle down economics. Art laffer should be in a mentally impaired ward.
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The american public has had its fill of whatever the present abortion of an economy is and the charlatans who tell us we just have to accept it as the new normal.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Cat food is a poor choice if you are looking to subsist. You will probably lose weight on it. The protein is so high it would be the ultimate Atkin's Diet.
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Hmmm - how about just good, old-fashioned American cats instead? Tastes like chicken...
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Your totally wrong. Liberals had little or nothing to do with it. My family was in the furniture manufacturing business. Most of it is now in China, being made by 45 dollar a month employees, living in dormitories housing thousands. So it was 600 employees gone in a small town , non Union. This happened all over the country, hundreds of factory's closed. If you read the history carefully you will find I'm right. Name calling ain't gonna cut it. We must change it. Ross Perot ran on this years ago but greed beat him, cheap labor. . A race to the bottom. Same with autos, refrigerators, on and on. The middle class bought the new aircraft. Beth steel people, gen motors people, etc.many are gone, not coming back. Please explain European aircraft....model? Country, ? who can afford them and what are they!? In this country they buy a fifty year old one for too much money and have to tie it down outside!
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Jimmy, who was president when the US became a member of the World Trade Organization on January 1, 1995?

And why did your family hate small town people, close their plant, and cause unemployment? Greed? Shame on you.
 
denverpilot said:
The goal used to be to build wealth and try to leave it to family* to make each succeeding generation a little better off. There were always bound to be more failures at that goal than successful people.

We've now labeled those who's families succeeded at it, "evil rich people" and "trust fund babies" and the like. And granted, some of the offspring truly grew up to be azzhats, knowing they could do or buy anyone, ahem, anything. So some of the disgust is earned rather than just a stereotype.

*Obviously the goal of leaving it to family may not apply if you're single. And you don't want to leave it to the kids if they appear to be already turning into azzhats, as mentioned above. You know if they're going that route. Jut don't do it. LOL!

We will probably change our Will documents soon to leave anything we have left, if anything, to nieces and nephews unless a better option comes along.

Sure as hell not leaving it to AOPA. LOL!
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How about the POA Foundation? With your help, the trustees for the foundation can fully fund Henning's hydrogen water generation urban gardening sharia-compliant operation!
 
nddons said:
Jimmy, who was president when the US became a member of the World Trade Organization on January 1, 1995?

And why did your family hate small town people, close their plant, and cause unemployment? Greed? Shame on you.
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Who was POTUS when that movement got underway? That was Nixon. It doesn't matters who is POTUS or what party has had power, the course our country and economy has been on has not altered since Eisenhower was POTUS. He warned us of what was coming if we did not guard against it in his Farewell to the Nation address, it's on YouTube as an open indictment to the greed and stupidity of our society. We live in a lie, and want to deceive ourselves that we are "the good guys". We spread evil across the globe and enforce it with death through our military. We sacrifice our children at the altar of money with as many of them committing suicide as getting killed; we should be ****ing ashamed, but we go forth with patriotic bravado that is bringing destruction back to our door step. America has become "The Great Satan", plain and simple, but our ego and our fear of change won't allow us to admit that. It's a shame, because the change would bring about a world and existence beyond your dreams, but instead we force mankind into extinction instead; well played.
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
It is a phrase I hear all the time referring to delaying one's pay by an additional pay period. Means their is a delay up front but when you quit, you have one more check coming. I always thought it was a funny phrase as well.
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Why anyone would think that is any kind of advantage is beyond me. Probably the same people who look forward to a big tax refund.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I think this is true as do many I speak with. The American public has had a bellyful of trickle down economics. Art laffer should be in a mentally impaired ward.
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Where he might run into you...
 
Henning said:
There is no need to force upon people what what you lead them to desire, that's what advertising and media are what they are. It isn't done through force, it is done through lies selling you the dream of a better life. If you drink this beer, you'll get these tits, if you drive this car, you'll get this *****.
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People who fall for that are just weak-willed morons.
 
paflyer said:
People who fall for that are just weak-willed morons.
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That includes 80% of society, and they, due to the wonders of democracy, are the ones who elect the leadership that is spoon fed to them, the leadership that is owned by the market milking every dime out of every sucker alive, including you by default, since you have no acceptable choice but to play, especially once you have children.
 
Clark1961 said:
The "point" they were designed to make was to teach a concept (at least in Econ 101). Are you presenting yourself as a professor of taxation? Again, laughable...



Serious request: do your own homework which is one of the things any professor should have learned.
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I was briefly a professor of taxation, have been a CPA for 30 years, and have a Master of Science in Taxation.

Do you have a question, Clark, or are you just here to disrupt the class?

If your disagreement with Art Laffer is legitimate, surely you have an alternative economic position that you'd like to offer.
 
Henning said:
I don't feel right about bringing new life into a situation where they will face extinction, it's gonna get really ugly soon if something doesn't change.
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Hyperbole smells great in the afternoon. :rolleyes:
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I think this is true as do many I speak with. The American public has had a bellyful of trickle down economics. Art laffer should be in a mentally impaired ward.
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You may want to consider expanding your acquaintance list.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
:yeahthat:

Before I had kids, I spent that money on other things.
I would rather have $0 left over at the end of the month and have my kids than be rolling in it w/ no kids.

I don't think my kids are all that expensive (yet anyway)
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Yep. I probably am an airplane renter vs an owner because of my kid. And I don't regret that one bit.
 
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