...

A bit of a thread drift, but do clone/"experimental" engines cost the same to overhaul as cErTiFiEd?
 
TCABM said:
As I posted elsewhere, I did the same.

All in costs for our owned C-172M from 2010-2022 excluding fuel, but inclusive of everything else usually run between $11k - and $15k; the hangar is a community hangar.

… Hourly amortization makes it look cheap, because $200K/2300hrs turns out to be $87/hr all in, dry.
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Yeah I don’t know what we are doing wrong, but even removing the Loan payment from the equation: our expenses seem to be really high compared to other planes, (eg 1.5x of your plane’s numbers)… it’s not explained by just the Retractable landing gear (we had big landing-gear expenses 2 years ago, but none this past year, so that’s not the difference).
We change our own Oil, also.
 
Pinecone said:
G1000 system is NOT light
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Indeed, it is not.

1712110056283.png

39 pounds for an intercom, a pair of NAV/COM/GPS's, transponder, a pair of displays, AHRS, ADC, turn coordinator and antennas.
 
dans2992 said:
It must be lighter than the instruments it replaces…
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It doesn’t have to be. The LRUs and sensor may be ounces, but ounces equal pounds.
 
This is a interesting thread , I have had planes most of my life and I am 82 and the lessons I have learned with them is they cost what ever it costs to keep them flying , I have had a 300 hr engine blow it in a 310 , and everything in between I can only tell you what my plane cost me last year , this year who knows , the fixed costs are easy , insurance, taxes , oil changes , I bought a 68 Cessna 421 at a DEA auction for 27 k in the mid 80 s flew it 3 years and hardly spent any money on it sold it to a friend and he flew it a couple years trouble free , we got a good one , but I don’t think anyone can or should tell you what it will cost , if you can’t write a check for a engine or other major costs you should join a flying club or get into a partnership on what you want to fly and pay as you go , my Glasair RG cost me almost nothing to own the hanger being the biggest item , but I spent about 6000 in fuel last year I am a A and P so that helps I guess I am preaching now but I have heard this topic so many times and I don’t believe there is a real answer if your making lots of money and have plenty of disposable income jump in and to me there is nothing better than flying your own plane I have never gotten tired of it.
 
My last post was supposed to go on the how much does it cost to own a plane ?
 
hindsight2020 said:
A bit of a thread drift, but do clone/"experimental" engines cost the same to overhaul as cErTiFiEd?
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Fundamentally, yes. Cylinders cost the same, accessories cost the same, machining services, labor, seals and misc parts… all the same.
 
Jim K said:
It depends on how nice of a plane you want. To buy an old plane and make it as nice as a brand new one will cost probably 3/4 of the new price. Most are satisfied with a mid time engine, worn interior, and avionics from the Carter administration. Personally, if I was Archer shopping, I'd buy an older model and spend the money I would've paid the bank on upgrades over time.
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3/4?! No way, admittedly my numbers are pre Covid, I haven’t checked in a while, assuming a Archer;

Overhauled engine (new control cables, new alternator) and overhauled prop: $40k

Refurbished interior: $20k

Quality paint job, replacing the windows/windshield: $25k

Complete avionics installation with glass, autopilot, etc: $90k

So $175k, plus say $75k for a run down plane, and you’re all in $250k, which is about 1/3 price.

Of course you’ll never be able to resell it for that much, a new one depreciates the second you buy it and probably after 5 years you will lose more on a 2025 one then the upgraded one.
 
StraightnLevel said:
How long is that plane grounded while all of that work is being done? How long do you have that $250k tied up without having a plane to fly, but stilll paying for the hangar, insurance, etc., and still having to either rent or fly commercial? 6 weeks? 2 years?
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Not 6 weeks, closer to 6 months. The bulk of the engine/prop overhaul work is done away from the plane, so can be done simultaneously with other work. Ditto for interior, and it has to be removed for the avionics upgrade anyway, so figure the interior/engine/avionics would take 4 months, the paint job at least another month.
 
StraightnLevel said:
So, how much would it be for a 30-year-old XC plane like a Bonanza, SR22 or M20M? The engine by itself is going to be a lot more, but is there much difference in the paint/interior/aionics work?

This sounds a lot like making the case for restoring a 1978 Corvette to use as a daily driver instead of buying a new one.......
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StraightnLevel said:
How long is that plane grounded while all of that work is being done? How long do you have that $250k tied up without having a plane to fly, but stilll paying for the hangar, insurance, etc., and still having to either rent or fly commercial? 6 weeks? 2 years?
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So you only ever buy brand new houses, too?

I mean it's cool if you do, but you've never made an improvement on a house you lived in?
 
I just thought it funny that “Airplane Ownership” and “Economics” were used in the same sentence. Calculate what you think it will cost per hour to own and operate, double that, and go enjoy flying.
 
StraightnLevel said:
So, the question in the OP really revolves around the true all-in cost in both time and capital to get a plane that is a reliable "appliance".
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I hate to disillusion you, but the only way to achieve appliance-level reliability in air travel is to buy airline tickets. Any small plane, not part of a fleet, flown and largely maintained by its owner, will have important down time, plus there will be significant weather limitations even with an instrument rating.

Even a brand new plane will have an occasional problem, and sometimes parts delays can be weeks or months. Not long ago, people were grounded because it was taking months just to get an oil filter. During my 2023 annual, I was down for a few weeks just waiting for a single simple hose fitting. And it’s almost a guarantee that when the part becomes available the A&P won’t be, because he’s moved over to someone else’s project while waiting.

Airlines have fleets of planes, depots full of parts and supplies, armies of mechanics, offices full of planners and logisticians, etc., scattered around the country and around the world. One pilot with one plane cannot achieve that same sort of reliability on his own.

Flying your own plane gives you convenience and flexibility you can’t get with the airlines, but the price you pay is that sometimes you have to remain flexible and be inconvenienced.
 
StraightnLevel said:
So, how much would it be for a 30-year-old XC plane like a Bonanza, SR22 or M20M? The engine by itself is going to be a lot more, but is there much difference in the paint/interior/aionics work?

This sounds a lot like making the case for restoring a 1978 Corvette to use as a daily driver instead of buying a new one.......
Click to expand...

I think you’re trying to justify a way to support whichever decision you’re leaning towards. The questions you’re asking are answered by personal values, not economic ones.

The real question you have to answer is whether you can swing the cost of an on-demand overhaul at any point, as that’s the worst-case scenario.

Upgrades-wise, a six-pack flies IFR the same way a G1000 does, so that’s a personal choice.
 
Half Fast brings up a great point. Even if you own your own plane you probably need to be prepared to also rent on occasion.
 
StraightnLevel said:
So, the question in the OP really revolves around the true all-in cost in both time and capital to get a plane that is a reliable "appliance". I have plenty of mechanical toys already, and part of my desire for a XC plane is to be able to spend more time at the farm and in the barn with a wrench in my hand. While I don't necessarily have a problem with the concept of a restored older model, I'm trying to get a handle on the reality of whether or not it makes financial sense vs. biting the bullet for something like a new SR22.
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I have a 1972 PA28R-200 I bought for $75k. I put $50k refreshing it after purchase. About $7k per year on average after that. In the trailing 12 months I've flown 241h on 127 flights. During that time there have been only 2 occasions where I couldn't fly due to mx issues.

One was a dead battery. Battery was replaced within 90 mins and then I flew. The other was an alternator field wire replaced by A&P the next morning in 2 hours and then I flew.

Reliability is to the point where I don't have to ask myself "am I comfortable with the aircraft's condition to fly?" when planning a XC. I can just take it as a given the plane is ready to rock (then verify during preflight). I think that is the sort of reliability you're seeking, and yes it's totally achievable for less than the $1.1m brand new SR22 price tag.

And frankly in my experience weather is and always will be the single most important factor in determining your "dispatch reliability", mx issues end up being a rounding error.
For every 1 flight I cancel due to mx I probably cancel or modify 30 due to weather concerns. And this would be the case whether I fly a PA28R with steam gauges or a brand new, glass panel SR22T.
 
Try plan B.

Buy a decent airframe with a decent mid life engine. Spend 6 months doing all the delayed maintenance, re do the interior and instrument panel. In the mean time do what you’re doing now - rent. In the end you’ll have the plane you want.


You’ll spend years looking for the perfect plane - years you could have been flying.

And again - there is no ROI with owning an airplane.
 
StraightnLevel said:
It's not so much about upgrades. It's about the ROI, which includes the value of time.

SO: If it's going to take $250-350K cash and a year (total guess) for a project, what happens if I just take $250K and use that as a down payment on a new one? Where is the break-even point?
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I think you can somewhat easily compute the financial break-even point.
But the time-value break even point is a question only you can answer. How much is your time worth to you to get up and running?

Then again if your alternative is using that cash to get a new plane, maybe lob a call into a Cirrus dealer and see what the lead times are for ordering brand-new. You might be waiting a year either way, brand new off the line or used and overhauled to fit your exact specs.
 
StraightnLevel said:
It's not so much about upgrades. It's about the ROI, which includes the value of time.

…Where is the break-even point?
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That’s a personal choice because it’s a measure of profitability, which is irrelevant. You’re assuming the binary choice of restoring/upgrading vs buying new.

There’s a third option, buying something that’s already had all that work done. Discount wise, that’s the sweet spot. Premier Aircraft Sales brokers stuff like this, and unless you’re already on the wait list or buy a spot on a wait list, there ain’t showrooms of new planes sitting around, unspoken for.

Ex: a clean, 2002 A36 with a mid-time motor and well equipped is going to run $400-$500k. A mid-time G36 is $700-800k. A new G36 isn’t being made.

A clean, mid-time, well equipped Ovation 2 will only set you back $250-300K. No Mooneys have been made in years.

SR22: mid-tine G5 NA is $500-650k. new G6/7 is $850k-$1.4M.

But none of those guarantee dispatch and 100% uptime.
 
Ok I have solved all of your issues , you need 2 planes I had 2 for years a nice k model bonanza and my Glasair RG so it was work on one fly the other pretty easy deal really 2 cheap ones instead of a million dollar one I never didn’t have a plane to fly , what bothered me the most was when they cut off the experimental planes to Mexico, if 2 couples were going we took the v tail if just 2 of us the Glasair which I liked flying anyway, I am lucky my hanger will hold more than 1 plane it goes on and on , one friend has a Husky, a cirrus ,and a lake anfib. If I was rich not sure how many I would have , but when I go from Minnesota to California in the winter I take sun country. It a lot cheaper not as much fun but I don’t get stuck in Kansas because of weather
 
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