“You Can’t Terminate FF”

Velocity173 said:
Got a guy at DNN who has one right in my old hangar behind me. Trying to make friends so I can go for a ride but don’t want to be rude either. ;)
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Oh ya! He was up at FGU not long ago mingling with the Vision Jet owner here. It’s a gray and black one iirc?
 
RyanB said:
Oh ya! He was up at FGU not long ago mingling with the Vision Jet owner here. It’s a gray and black one iirc?
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Yep. Stepped up from an SR22. Says the SF50 is easier to fly.
 
I've had the opposite problem. I got dumped off FF when flying East leaving the mountains of CO. Denver approach said "Multiple targets North to South across the front range ranging in altitude from 7,000 to 10,000 radar services terminated squawk VFR"... I was like uhhhhh okay time to do some dodging.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I've had the opposite problem. I got dumped off FF when flying East leaving the mountains of CO. Denver approach said "Multiple targets North to South across the front range ranging in altitude from 7,000 to 10,000 radar services terminated squawk VFR"... I was like uhhhhh okay time to do some dodging.
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I wonder what would happen if in that circumstance, you waited 30 seconds then called them back up asking for FF?
 
luvflyin said:
A pilot can cancel anytime he wants if in VFR conditions except when in Class A Airspace. Just curious, was this in B or C airspace?
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He can? So if I say, "Cancel Traffic Advisories," when I'm in E airspace and ATC says, "Negative, remain this frequency, continue squawk," I can tell her to pound sand?
 
EvilEagle said:
I will say that the last few times I’ve gone into Knoxville, they are terrible at traffic sequencing. Lots of vectors that needlessly cause traffic conflicts that wouldn’t have been there if they weren’t involved. I was very frustrated with their performance.

edit** Before someone yells at me, yes this guy wasn’t using his brain and I know you can’t get into a C without talking to someone. (Although he could go under the outer shelf and contact tower directly next time. That might work.
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I agree, anytime I go into TYS, it's a ****show. And that's in a 121 airplane...
 
Lindberg said:
He can? So if I say, "Cancel Traffic Advisories," when I'm in E airspace and ATC says, "Negative, remain this frequency, continue squawk," I can tell her to pound sand?
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My understanding is that if you are on FF and they tell you to turn you are supposed to turn. Usually there is a good reason for it, I would not cancel for that.
 
PaulS said:
My understanding is that if you are on FF and they tell you to turn you are supposed to turn. Usually there is a good reason for it, I would not cancel for that.
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Any time ATC instructs you to turn, you must turn, unless you're in G airspace. But even then it's probably a good idea. See FAR 91.123. Likewise if ATC tells you to remain on frequency and fly heading blah di blah, you must.
 
So if I'm flying along at 5,500' between Tallahassee and Perry, FL with flight following and getting ready to land at Perry. I can't cancel FF? I have to wait until they cancel it?
 
Lindberg said:
He can? So if I say, "Cancel Traffic Advisories," when I'm in E airspace and ATC says, "Negative, remain this frequency, continue squawk," I can tell her to pound sand?
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Of course not. That was about cancelling IFR. Sequence of posts that got us to that was 4, 10, 11, 12, 15, 31 and 40. When you’ve cancelled you are still bound by 91.123.
 
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donjohnston said:
So if I'm flying along at 5,500' between Tallahassee and Perry, FL with flight following and getting ready to land at Perry. I can't cancel FF? I have to wait until they cancel it?
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You can TERMINATE flight following anytime you want to. However, when you do, if they give you control instructions, you must comply with them.
 
donjohnston said:
So if I'm flying along at 5,500' between Tallahassee and Perry, FL with flight following and getting ready to land at Perry. I can't cancel FF? I have to wait until they cancel it?
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You can always tell them to cancel. They are usually more than happy to. But if they say, "stay with me" or give you instructions, 91.123 says you have to follow them absent an emergency. There's usually a good reason.
 
Lindberg said:
Of all the recent mid-airs I can think of off the top of my head, only one didn't have the planes in contact with ATC. Maybe ATC is the problem.
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That's because busy airspaces are the ones that typically require ATC. The probability of collision is high in busy airspaces. Without ATC, it will be even higher.
A more meaningful question is, how may midairs do you think will take place if busy airspaces like ORD, ATL, PHL switch to uncontrolled airspaces?
 
sarangan said:
That's because busy airspaces are the ones that typically require ATC. The probability of collision is high in busy airspaces. Without ATC, it will be even higher.
A more meaningful question is, how may midairs do you think will take place if busy airspaces like ORD, ATL, PHL switch to uncontrolled airspaces?
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Didn't some of those go ATC zero in the past year?
 
luvflyin said:
You can TERMINATE flight following anytime you want to. However, when you do, if they give you control instructions, you must comply with them.
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Perry-Foley is also in G airspace. The situation described by OP, was an aircraft inside the Charlie airspace with intentions to land at the primary. Can’t cancel FF in that situation, as you cannot land at an active towered field without it.

So ya, if you’re landing at Perry-Foley, it’s fine to cancel flight following, as you won’t need to have it all the way down to the ground, like you would at a Charlie and as long as there’s no instruction(s) to comply with beforehand.
 
RyanB said:
Perry-Foley is also in G airspace.
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Only once you are below 700 AGL.

But yeah, there are two different questions being discussed.
  • Inside Class C where you must have two-way communication and will receive separation services (the OP).
  • In Class E where you didn't have to talk to them to begin with but once those lines of communication are open, you have to obey their instructions.
 
Here is what I was taught.

Class C and D only provide separation to IFR aircraft, separation for VFR aircraft is provided on a capacity basis and is not "guaranteed" (I know that is the wrong word, just could not recall what is the correct term).

So, yes you can cancel IFR in a class C, D or even a B. What this affects is separation services ATC will provide. For class B, the separation mins change legally but not practically from what I have read. For C and D, the separation mins often have a larger change than B between IFR and VFR due differences in equipment. (I think D is a non-radar environment, C is a hybrid)

However, even if you cancel IR, you are still required to stay with ATC and do what they say (unless unable). So there generally is no practical effect of canceling IR.

How is my memory?

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
 
tspear said:
Here is what I was taught.

Class C and D only provide separation to IFR aircraft, separation for VFR aircraft is provided on a capacity basis and is not "guaranteed" (I know that is the wrong word, just could not recall what is the correct term).

So, yes you can cancel IFR in a class C, D or even a B. What this affects is separation services ATC will provide. For class B, the separation mins change legally but not practically from what I have read. For C and D, the separation mins often have a larger change than B between IFR and VFR due differences in equipment. (I think D is a non-radar environment, C is a hybrid)

However, even if you cancel IR, you are still required to stay with ATC and do what they say (unless unable). So there generally is no practical effect of canceling IR.

How is my memory?

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
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The practical effect is the closing of your flight plan.
 
tspear said:
Here is what I was taught.

Class C and D only provide separation to IFR aircraft, separation for VFR aircraft is provided on a capacity basis and is not "guaranteed" (I know that is the wrong word, just could not recall what is the correct term).

So, yes you can cancel IFR in a class C, D or even a B. What this affects is separation services ATC will provide. For class B, the separation mins change legally but not practically from what I have read. For C and D, the separation mins often have a larger change than B between IFR and VFR due differences in equipment. (I think D is a non-radar environment, C is a hybrid)

However, even if you cancel IR, you are still required to stay with ATC and do what they say (unless unable). So there generally is no practical effect of canceling IR.

How is my memory?

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
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TRSA, C (and outer area) and B must provide seperation services to VFR aircraft. It’s only optional in the TRSA is you don’t chose to participate. It’s not optional in a C or B.

In this case, not just separation services are being provided (VFR vs IFR) there are mandatory class C services such as traffic advisories, safety alerts and sequencing. And while the tower of the C can provide all this, is generally a TRACON function. Hence the controller in the OP keeping the aircraft up tge freq and receiving FF (class C services) until she was ready to release the Cirrus to tower.

AFDB6DF9-6BA4-4FD6-A696-6A22D3FA8963.jpeg
 
Velocity173 said:
TRSA, C (and outer area) and B must provide seperation services to VFR aircraft. It’s only optional in the TRSA is you don’t chose to participate. It’s not optional in a C or B.

In this case, not just separation services are being provided (VFR vs IFR) there are mandatory class C services such as traffic advisories, safety alerts and sequencing. And while the tower of the C can provide all this, is generally a TRACON function. Hence the controller in the OP keeping the aircraft up tge freq and receiving FF (class C services) until she was ready to release the Cirrus to tower.

View attachment 97787
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You can add that, as discussed recently in connection with Paul Bertorelli's video, Class D does not really provide separation services in the air to any aircraft. They provide sequencing to keep airplanes separated on the ground but generally lack the radar capability to provide separation services in the air. That's probably the reason for the 1,000' ceiling requirement at any controlled surface area.
 
luvflyin said:
Of course not. That was about cancelling IFR. Sequence of posts that got us to that was 4, 10, 11, 12, 15, 31 and 40. When you’ve cancelled you are still bound by 91.123.
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What confused me is that the thread is about canceling flight following.
 
tspear said:
Here is what I was taught.

Class C and D only provide separation to IFR aircraft, separation for VFR aircraft is provided on a capacity basis and is not "guaranteed" (I know that is the wrong word, just could not recall what is the correct term).

So, yes you can cancel IFR in a class C, D or even a B. What this affects is separation services ATC will provide. For class B, the separation mins change legally but not practically from what I have read. For C and D, the separation mins often have a larger change than B between IFR and VFR due differences in equipment. (I think D is a non-radar environment, C is a hybrid)

However, even if you cancel IR, you are still required to stay with ATC and do what they say (unless unable). So there generally is no practical effect of canceling IR.

How is my memory?

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
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In B separation for VFR’s is 1 1/2 miles or 500 feet vertical from other IFR/VFR aircraft that weigh 19,000 lbs or more or Visual Separation. Less than 19,000 lbs its 500 feet vertical or Target Resolution or Visual Separation. Target Resolution is targets don’t touch, affectionately known as ‘green between’ to Controllers.
In C it’s 500 vertical or Target Resolution between a VFR and an IFR or Visual. There is no Separation required between VFR’s.
In a TRSA it’s 500 vertical or Target Resolution or Visual between a VFR and any aircraft.
 
luvflyin said:
There was a thread awhile back about a controller telling a pilot he couldn’t cancel. Started by a guy who flies a Bellanca Viking out of Reid Hillview KRHV.
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That was my thread, and the controller told me I couldn't cancel IFR, not FF. I was in E airspace at the time. I later had a conversation with the NorCAL TRACON supervisor about it. He agreed that the controller was wrong and promised to get them sime additional training.

Not quite the same situation as trying to, essentially, cancel having to talk to anyone while inside a class C.


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jimhorner said:
That was my thread, and the controller told me I couldn't cancel IFR, not FF. I was in E airspace at the time. I later had a conversation with the NorCAL TRACON supervisor about it. He agreed that the controller was wrong and promised to get them sime additional training.

Not quite the same situation as trying to, essentially, cancel having to talk to anyone while inside a class C.


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That’s the one. I had replied to post #12 which was about canceling IFR. Yeah, that was a drift from the OP where the guy said “we’ll just terminate flight following at this time.” And the thread title, You Can’t Terminate FF.
 
I’ve been in similar circumstances on FF. The first time you get commands from ATC when not seemingly in their control, one tends to question why; but consider it a learning experience. I think the main source of confusion here is the thinking that if you initiated FF, you could also just cancel it and not talk or follow ATC’s commands right after. Even if the OP was not in class C, and you were communicating with ATC, the Op needed to comply with any commands, unless he was in an emergency. The fact he was in class C was a second reason he needed to follow commands. Obviously, the third reason is for safety reasons ATC may be aware of that are not obvious to the pilot.
 
MajorTurbulence said:
I’ve been in similar circumstances on FF. The first time you get commands from ATC when not seemingly in their control, one tends to question why; but consider it a learning experience. I think the main source of confusion here is the thinking that if you initiated FF, you could also just cancel it and not talk or follow ATC’s commands right after. Even if the OP was not in class C, and you were communicating with ATC, the Op needed to comply with any commands, unless he was in an emergency. The fact he was in class C was a second reason he needed to follow commands. Obviously, the third reason is for safety reasons ATC may be aware of that are not obvious to the pilot.
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Yup.
 
EdFred said:
So the statement should hold true that new controllers start at smaller towers and TRACONS?
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It absolutely does not work like that. Just the opposite, in fact. The sucky controllers end up there.
 
Cancelled or not cancelled, you have to obey an ATC instruction, unless it’s an emergency. So once you start talking to ATC you can’t ignore what they are telling you to do or cancel your way out of it.
 
EdFred said:
I'll let you three figure out who's right and who's not.
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Think it’s a bit of all 3. Some controllers in places like Chicago are new. Primarily at the center. They are more capable to train new people than a large TRACON. Some smaller facilities do end up with several people that were unsuccessful at larger facilities. Our large TRACON doesn’t have any successful brand new controllers from the past decade. They tried it with a lot but didn’t work out. Don’t think they try it anymore.
 
True...but I’ve never had a problem checking out and squawking 1200. I just tell em thanks and see ya.....and off we go.
midlifeflyer said:
You can always tell them to cancel. They are usually more than happy to. But if they say, "stay with me" or give you instructions, 91.123 says you have to follow them absent an emergency. There's usually a good reason.
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