“You Can’t Terminate FF”

Velocity173

Velocity173

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Velocity173
Heard an interesting exchange this morning between a Cirrus and Knoxville Approach. The Cirrus pilot was VFR receiving FF into KTYS. As he approached the airfield and inside the shelf of the C, the approach controller put him on a heading (040) to stay clear of rwy 23 departures. Apparently that wasn’t working so she (approach) told him to turn an additional 10 degrees right. The pilot now seemed a bit irritated and came back with “we’ll just terminate flight following at this time.” Soon as he said that I kinda chuckled knowing that ain’t gonna go over well. Sure enough she replied with “Cirrus xxx, you can’t terminate flight following. You’re required to be on it to land at McGhee Tyson.” He rogered that and was shipped to tower soon after.

Not sure what the pilot was thinking. Maybe that he could maintain the two way comms but not participate in class C services??? I don’t know, just seemed like an odd request while operating within a C.
 
I’ve actually had a similar brain fart. I was returning to a towered field on an IFR flight plan but in VMC. It was very hot and bumpy, and for some reason the controller kept me pretty high and was vectoring me on a downwind. Abeam the airport I’d had enough of the bumps and knew I could get down from there. The exchange went something like this:

“Approach, Cancel IFR”
“Do you mean you’d like a visual from there?”
“Yes!”
“Cleared visual approach, contact tower”
 
I will say that the last few times I’ve gone into Knoxville, they are terrible at traffic sequencing. Lots of vectors that needlessly cause traffic conflicts that wouldn’t have been there if they weren’t involved. I was very frustrated with their performance.

edit** Before someone yells at me, yes this guy wasn’t using his brain and I know you can’t get into a C without talking to someone. (Although he could go under the outer shelf and contact tower directly next time. That might work.
 
EvilEagle said:
I will say that the last few times I’ve gone into Knoxville, they are terrible at traffic sequencing. Lots of vectors that needlessly cause traffic conflicts that wouldn’t have been there if they weren’t involved. I was very frustrated with their performance.
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TYS controller culture seems to be anti GA, when I ask for FF or get handed off to them they seem to act like servicing a piston single is beneath them. Polar opposite of the CHA crew.
 
bluesky74656 said:
I’ve actually had a similar brain fart. I was returning to a towered field on an IFR flight plan but in VMC. It was very hot and bumpy, and for some reason the controller kept me pretty high and was vectoring me on a downwind. Abeam the airport I’d had enough of the bumps and knew I could get down from there. The exchange went something like this:

“Approach, Cancel IFR”
“Do you mean you’d like a visual from there?”
“Yes!”
“Cleared visual approach, contact tower”
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you consider that a brain fart, canceling IFR is a perfectly fine thing to do if it's VMC and you see the airport. Not necessary at a towered field, of course, but not an incorrect thing to do.
 
I fly a Cirrus, we'll get that out of the way right away. About a month ago, I was about 60 miles from home, ifr because my departure was IMC, but I was in marginal VMC and getting better at this point. ATC told me to turn 15 left because a gulfstream and I were headed to the same waypoint. So I answered "XXX 15 left, I'd like to cancel IFR" He came back "ifr cancellation received, but you are still converging with a gulfstream." I told him "I'm turning 15 left as we speak, would like FF, let me know what you need".

I get vectored a lot flying to airports with faster traffic, I look at it as a few extra minutes of flying, no big deal. Although sometimes, in close, it does get confusing which button to push, lol. ;)
 
This past weekend I was on an IFR plan in vmc, was being vectored a little and decided to cancel.
Controller came back with "I'll keep you for a little longer". I said ok and 5-10 minutes later he acknowledged the cancellation and I squawked VFR.
Never heard something like this.
I was under the DFW class B.
 
PaulS said:
I fly a Cirrus, we'll get that out of the way right away. About a month ago, I was about 60 miles from home, ifr because my departure was IMC, but I was in marginal VMC and getting better at this point. ATC told me to turn 15 left because a gulfstream and I were headed to the same waypoint. So I answered "XXX 15 left, I'd like to cancel IFR" He came back "ifr cancellation received, but you are still converging with a gulfstream." I told him "I'm turning 15 left as we speak, would like FF, let me know what you need".

I get vectored a lot flying to airports with faster traffic, I look at it as a few extra minutes of flying, no big deal. Although sometimes, in close, it does get confusing which button to push, lol. ;)
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I've gone the opposite way before. Chicago approach wanted to drop me from FF, and I came back with "you want me to call FSS and air file, and come back or just switch me over to IFR now, I'm equipment Golf." I got a huge sigh out of the controller. They did NOT want a flib on their scope. Granted this was a few years ago before their change in doctrine.
 
Velocity173 said:
Not sure what the pilot was thinking. Maybe that he could maintain the two way comms but not participate in class C services??? I don’t know, just seemed like an odd request while operating within a C.
Click to expand...
Was he thinking that FF was the only reason he had to follow ATC's instructions? 'Cause it ain't.

ATC: "VFR traffic advisories terminated, turn right 10 degrees."
 
Omalley1537 said:
it just occurred to me why they had the red carpet style ads...it’s a continuation of the line so the pilot can find the FBO...
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Can you imagine if a certain FBO chain ordered all magenta carpets. Holy hell would that be funny. And then COPA would put out a magazine article on how to deal with being made fun of.
 
I can't fault the Knoxville controller in this instance, but the rudest experience I've ever had was from a KTYS tower controller. I just about told him advise when ready to copy my number.
 
bluesky74656 said:
I’ve actually had a similar brain fart. I was returning to a towered field on an IFR flight plan but in VMC. It was very hot and bumpy, and for some reason the controller kept me pretty high and was vectoring me on a downwind. Abeam the airport I’d had enough of the bumps and knew I could get down from there. The exchange went something like this:

“Approach, Cancel IFR”
“Do you mean you’d like a visual from there?”
“Yes!”
“Cleared visual approach, contact tower”
Click to expand...

Or, ask for a "Contact Approach". I stumped a controller with that one a while back. Stumping the controller may only work at smaller towered airport where they do OJT of new controllers.
 
A1Topgun said:
Or, ask for a "Contact Approach". I stumped a controller with that one a while back. Stumping the controller may only work at smaller towered airport where they do OJT of new controllers.
Click to expand...
They do OJT at *every* ATC facility...

Paul
 
Velocity173 said:
Heard an interesting exchange this morning between a Cirrus and Knoxville Approach. The Cirrus pilot was VFR receiving FF into KTYS. As he approached the airfield and inside the shelf of the C, the approach controller put him on a heading (040) to stay clear of rwy 23 departures. Apparently that wasn’t working so she (approach) told him to turn an additional 10 degrees right. The pilot now seemed a bit irritated and came back with “we’ll just terminate flight following at this time.” Soon as he said that I kinda chuckled knowing that ain’t gonna go over well. Sure enough she replied with “Cirrus xxx, you can’t terminate flight following. You’re required to be on it to land at McGhee Tyson.” He rogered that and was shipped to tower soon after.

Not sure what the pilot was thinking. Maybe that he could maintain the two way comms but not participate in class C services??? I don’t know, just seemed like an odd request while operating within a C.
Click to expand...

It doesn't make sense why some pilots turn down a free insurance against the biggest risk in flying - midair collisions.
 
PaulS said:
I fly a Cirrus, we'll get that out of the way right away. About a month ago, I was about 60 miles from home, ifr because my departure was IMC, but I was in marginal VMC and getting better at this point. ATC told me to turn 15 left because a gulfstream and I were headed to the same waypoint. So I answered "XXX 15 left, I'd like to cancel IFR" He came back "ifr cancellation received, but you are still converging with a gulfstream." I told him "I'm turning 15 left as we speak, would like FF, let me know what you need".

I get vectored a lot flying to airports with faster traffic, I look at it as a few extra minutes of flying, no big deal. Although sometimes, in close, it does get confusing which button to push, lol. ;)
Click to expand...

Push away, just don’t be pulling
 
MacFlier said:
This past weekend I was on an IFR plan in vmc, was being vectored a little and decided to cancel.
Controller came back with "I'll keep you for a little longer". I said ok and 5-10 minutes later he acknowledged the cancellation and I squawked VFR.
Never heard something like this.
I was under the DFW class B.
Click to expand...
There was a thread awhile back about a controller telling a pilot he couldn’t cancel. Started by a guy who flies a Bellanca Viking out of Reid Hillview KRHV.
 
schmookeeg said:
o_O The biggest risk?
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Yes, the biggest risk, so big that there is a whole a traffic control system in place with rules on air space, special airspace for the really high risk areas, altitudes you can fly and which direction you are supposed to fly at those altitudes. Even with all this airplanes still manage to run into each other. It's not a big sky out there, be very careful.
 
sarangan said:
It doesn't make sense why some pilots turn down a free insurance against the biggest risk in flying - midair collisions.
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Pretty sure mid-airs are quite a bit down the list in terms of risk.

PaulS said:
Yes, the biggest risk, so big that there is a whole a traffic control system in place with rules on air space, special airspace for the really high risk areas, altitudes you can fly and which direction you are supposed to fly at those altitudes. Even with all this airplanes still manage to run into each other. It's not a big sky out there, be very careful.
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It's a highly-mitigated risk due to the airspace rules. As such, the number of deaths attributed to mid-airs is much lower than other forms of accidents. I'd spend more time worrying about fuel exhaustion and stalls.
 
PaulS said:
Yes, the biggest risk, so big that there is a whole a traffic control system in place with rules on air space, special airspace for the really high risk areas, altitudes you can fly and which direction you are supposed to fly at those altitudes. Even with all this airplanes still manage to run into each other. It's not a big sky out there, be very careful.
Click to expand...
Of all the recent mid-airs I can think of off the top of my head, only one didn't have the planes in contact with ATC. Maybe ATC is the problem.
 
luvflyin said:
There was a thread awhile back about a controller telling a pilot he couldn’t cancel. Started by a guy who flies a Bellanca Viking out of Reid Hillview KRHV.
Click to expand...
It's happened to me before when there's traffic between me and where I'm going.
 
Lindberg said:
Was he thinking that FF was the only reason he had to follow ATC's instructions? 'Cause it ain't.

ATC: "VFR traffic advisories terminated, turn right 10 degrees."
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I think he was frustrated with the vectors, thought he'd terminate, go own nav and switch to tower. Obviously that’s not the way it works.
 
Just a note, I recently *DID* get kicked off FF inside the inner ring of a class C. However, that situation was approaching my destination airport under the shelf and no traffic outside the destination's pattern. Maybe this pilot had previously had that same thing happen and thought he could do it here?
 
PaulS said:
Yes, the biggest risk, so big that there is a whole a traffic control system in place with rules on air space, special airspace for the really high risk areas, altitudes you can fly and which direction you are supposed to fly at those altitudes. Even with all this airplanes still manage to run into each other. It's not a big sky out there, be very careful.
Click to expand...

Uh, no. Fuel starvation, and VMC into IMC, CFIT, and t/o and landing ops are are still a much bigger risk.
 
Seanaldinho said:
They tried it at New York Approach.

But generally at approach and tower facilities, no.
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And then the "couldn't cut it at N90" folks went back to Allentown and terrorized the skies for the rest of time.
 
RyanB said:
I’m sure TYS deals with a lot of interesting things, considering they have a Cirrus Aircraft Center on field. :)
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We went right over the top of the field and they had probably had at 7 or 8 SF50s parked on the completion facility ramp. I was telling my medcrew how I wished I could buy one of them. They get tired of my plane fantasy stories. :D
 
Velocity173 said:
We went right over the top of the field and they had probably had at 7 or 8 SF50s parked on the completion facility ramp. I was telling my medcrew how I wished I could buy one of them. They get tired of my plane fantasy stories. :D
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I wish I could buy one too, no lie. There’s a guy at FGU with one and it’s a pretty sweet airplane!
 
EvilEagle said:
I will say that the last few times I’ve gone into Knoxville, they are terrible at traffic sequencing. Lots of vectors that needlessly cause traffic conflicts that wouldn’t have been there if they weren’t involved. I was very frustrated with their performance.

edit** Before someone yells at me, yes this guy wasn’t using his brain and I know you can’t get into a C without talking to someone. (Although he could go under the outer shelf and contact tower directly next time. That might work.
Click to expand...

I agree. They usually send me around other traffic that’s not even close. Actually couldn’t believe she let me fly directly over the field at 2,000 this time.

I was watching the Cirrus on the 500 display and honestly didn’t think he was a factor for her departures. Still, the dude should’ve just sucked it up and taken the vector.
 
RyanB said:
I wish I could buy one too, no lie. There’s a guy at FGU with one and it’s a pretty sweet airplane!
Click to expand...

Got a guy at DNN who has one right in my old hangar behind me. Trying to make friends so I can go for a ride but don’t want to be rude either. ;)
 
Lindberg said:
It's happened to me before when there's traffic between me and where I'm going.
Click to expand...

A pilot can cancel anytime he wants if in VFR conditions except when in Class A Airspace. Just curious, was this in B or C airspace?
 
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