Administrative “law” strikes seaplane pilot

[Salty]

When did a single example of poor ADM that didn’t result in any type of damage or injury become a violation anyway?

I see an example of poor ADM just about every day I see more than 2 GA airplanes. I doubt they are getting violated.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Also that ain’t how the FAA works, you are presumed guilty until proven innocent.

Prove that

 

[Llewtrah381]

When did a single example of poor ADM that didn’t result in any type of damage or injury become a violation anyway?

I see an example of poor ADM just about every day I see more than 2 GA airplanes. I doubt they are getting violated.

Exactly. So there’s probably LOTS more here than AOPA lets on.

 

[Roller]

Prove that

Umm it’s administrative “law”

Mr Barry Schiff:
Barry Schiff, a fine gentleman and flight instructor, found himself in a bit of a pickle when the FAA decided to suspend his flight instructor certificate. They said he wasn’t following air traffic control instructions, though he insisted he hadn’t done a thing wrong. The FAA took swift action, grounding him until he could prove his innocence in a drawn-out appeal. Eventually, his name was cleared, but it sure wasn’t an easy road, and he had to work hard to show he hadn’t violated any rules.

Mr Adil Elmasry
Now, take the case of Adil Elmasry, a commercial pilot who found himself at odds with the FAA over his medical certification. The FAA, after some concerns about his health, decided to revoke his medical certificate, assuming he wasn’t fit to fly. Despite his insistence that he was in tip-top shape, the burden fell on him to prove his fitness through multiple medical tests. The FAA had already made its mind up, and he had to jump through hoops to clear his name and get back in the cockpit.

Mr Dwayne White
Then there was Dwayne White, a commercial pilot who faced the FAA’s wrath after being accused of using a fake medical certificate. The FAA wasted no time revoking his license, and he had to go through a whole legal mess to prove he wasn’t guilty of what they said. The burden was on him to show he’d done nothing wrong, and he had to endure a long battle to restore his good name.

Mr John S. McCulloch
Lastly, there’s the case of John McCulloch, another commercial pilot who had his license suspended after the FAA suspected some health issues. They revoked his medical certificate based on their worries, and once again, it was on him to prove he was fit to fly. He had to go through numerous tests and evaluations, showing that the FAA was mistaken, and only after a lengthy process was he allowed to return to flying.

You see, in these cases, the FAA took action quickly, almost as if assuming guilt, and it was up to these fine folks to prove their innocence. It wasn’t a matter of being presumed innocent from the get-go, they had to fight tooth and nail to clear their names and keep their livelihoods intact. That’s just how things can go sometimes, even when you’re trying to do right by the rules.

 

[Roller]

Without picking sides, I do have to wonder how this pilot got on the FAAs radar so to speak. It's not like there are hundreds or thousands of FAA sky cops hiding in the bushes running radar. Something happened, or someone complained.

They say he was less than 500 feet from the bridge. Was he 499 feet, or ten feet?

I would say this case is hard to judge without any of the facts.

Maybe they set some alerts on certain areas for adsb tracks?

 

[Llewtrah381]

Maybe they set some alerts on certain areas for adsb tracks?

Prove it

 

[Shepherd]

Is anyone really surprised the FAA has dragged out the seaplane version of the Trent Palmer case?

 

[Roller]

Prove it

How else did they know?
Apparently no comment of video or witnesses.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Quick! Someone yell “Bob Hoover!”

 

[Roller]

Quick! Someone yell “Bob Hoover!”

Could do that one too, plus the whistleblower lady from Delta who, plus Mr Palmer

 

[Llewtrah381]

Umm it’s administrative “law”

Mr Barry Schiff:
Barry Schiff, a fine gentleman and flight instructor, found himself in a bit of a pickle when the FAA decided to suspend his flight instructor certificate. They said he wasn’t following air traffic control instructions, though he insisted he hadn’t done a thing wrong. The FAA took swift action, grounding him until he could prove his innocence in a drawn-out appeal. Eventually, his name was cleared, but it sure wasn’t an easy road, and he had to work hard to show he hadn’t violated any rules.

Mr Adil Elmasry
Now, take the case of Adil Elmasry, a commercial pilot who found himself at odds with the FAA over his medical certification. The FAA, after some concerns about his health, decided to revoke his medical certificate, assuming he wasn’t fit to fly. Despite his insistence that he was in tip-top shape, the burden fell on him to prove his fitness through multiple medical tests. The FAA had already made its mind up, and he had to jump through hoops to clear his name and get back in the cockpit.

Mr Dwayne White
Then there was Dwayne White, a commercial pilot who faced the FAA’s wrath after being accused of using a fake medical certificate. The FAA wasted no time revoking his license, and he had to go through a whole legal mess to prove he wasn’t guilty of what they said. The burden was on him to show he’d done nothing wrong, and he had to endure a long battle to restore his good name.

Mr John S. McCulloch
Lastly, there’s the case of John McCulloch, another commercial pilot who had his license suspended after the FAA suspected some health issues. They revoked his medical certificate based on their worries, and once again, it was on him to prove he was fit to fly. He had to go through numerous tests and evaluations, showing that the FAA was mistaken, and only after a lengthy process was he allowed to return to flying.

You see, in these cases, the FAA took action quickly, almost as if assuming guilt, and it was up to these fine folks to prove their innocence. It wasn’t a matter of being presumed innocent from the get-go, they had to fight tooth and nail to clear their names and keep their livelihoods intact. That’s just how things can go sometimes, even when you’re trying to do right by the rules.

So what’s your fix? Maybe a Pilot’s Bill of Rights?

 

[Roller]

So what’s your fix? Maybe a Pilot’s Bill of Rights?

They’d just ignore that too

I reckon it’s high time we cast a little light under that ol’ rock at the FAA. They sure could use a good audit to see just how often they’re not even stickin’ to their own rules.

The answer here, my friend, is accountability. There oughta be some serious consequences for not following the guidelines they’ve set out, penalties, like firin’ folks and barrin’ ‘em from any future public service work.

Truth be told, the real solution might just be to scrap all this administrative “law” nonsense altogether.


I reckon AOPA’s got a bit of crow to eat lookin' back at how they so eagerly carried the water for the FAA’s ADS-B mandate

 

[donjohnston]

I think the AI bot using the "Roller" username got the Festus Haggen filter turned on. All of a sudden their posts are:

Well I tell ya sumptin. I reckon y'all ought to mosey on down to that ol' Eff Ay Ay office over yonder and give them there folks what fer! Otherwise, them varmits just be stompin' on our gawd given rights.

I wonder if that bot has a Taylor Swift filter?

 

[Dana]

Prove it

How else did they know?
Apparently no comment of video or witnesses.

What's to prove? It was reported that the FAA used ADSB data to support their case. But I doubt it was triggered by ADSB data or that the FAA was watching for it; almost all FAA enforcement actions are the result of an accident, incident, or complaint, then they look at the data.

The brief news story made no mention of a complaint but that doesn't mean there wasn't one; almost certainly there was and that started this whole thing. It may have been from somebody on the ground or a pilot in the pattern at 7B2. The fact that the pilot is an FAA employee is a delightful twist that may or may not have any bearing on the case. Without knowing more, like the reason for the complaint, where he actually landed, etc., we can't know whether the enforcement action was reasonable or not.

But that won't stop the POA peanut gallery from discussing it until the furor dies down or the thread gets locked.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

I think the AI bot using the "Roller" username got the Festus Haggen filter turned on. All of a sudden their posts are:

Well I tell ya sumptin. I reckon y'all ought to mosey on down to that ol' Eff Ay Ay office over yonder and give them there folks what fer! Otherwise, them varmits just be stompin' on our gawd given rights.

I wonder if that bot has a Taylor Swift filter?

I was thinking the same thing
Their writing style is totally at-odds with how someone actually speaks and writes. It doesn't write like a redneck, but like a caricature of a redneck.
... Personally, I'm betting it's an AI-bot run by one of the more colorful characters on PoA. Just a WAG.

 

[Pugs]

But that won't stop the POA peanut gallery from discussing it until the furor dies down or the thread gets locked.

A lot of experience in the POA "peanut gallery" and perhaps that experience brings some insights into the discussion. Outrage is optional but the discussion and perspectives are likely more diverse than single FSDO who brought the charge might have.

The FAA's own regulations are so poorly written and byzantine that they themselves need interpretation. Clearing those up would go a long ways towards not having these problems.

 

[Racerx]

And it was legal for a helicopter to fly below the landing traffic along the Potomac.

But it wasn't as that would have meant less than 1,000' separation. Just because the routes cross doesn't mean helicopters were right below landing traffic. At least they shouldn't be

 

[Roller]

I was thinking the same thing
Their writing style is totally at-odds with how someone actually speaks and writes. It doesn't write like a redneck, but like a caricature of a redneck.
... Personally, I'm betting it's an AI-bot run by one of the more colorful characters on PoA. Just a WAG.

Text to speech

Boy I still get a kick of the ol’ internet “everyone I don’t agree with is a robot”, always thought that was a head scratcher from a psychological standpoint

 

[jayhawk74]

This is from the caption of the picture attached to the AOPA article:
"Northampton Airport's runway is roughly parallel to the Connecticut River, about 700 to 1,200 feet from the water's edge. This section of the river has been used by many seaplane pilots over the years, and there is no regulation that prohibits takeoffs or landings."

It sounds like that the nearby seaplane base uses this section for training most like;y due to a different water flow or wind direction. So my question is if this section of the river has been used by seaplane pilots before why did the FAA decide to go after this particular pilot and not the previous pilots.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Text to speech

Boy I still get a kick of the ol’ internet “everyone I don’t agree with is a robot”, always thought that was a head scratcher from a psychological standpoint

When you're on the internet long enough you start to notice trends.
Like when people show up on the forum and by day 3 they've already established themselves as a vocal contrarian/fight-picking in every thread they post in.
Fast forward 1 month and the troll is bored and leaves. I've seen it play out at least 2 dozen times in my 5 years here. Prove me wrong

 

[Roller]

When you're on the internet long enough you start to notice trends.
Like when people show up on the forum and by day 3 they've already established themselves as a vocal contrarian/fight-picking in every thread they post in.
Fast forward 1 month and the troll is bored and leaves. I've seen it play out at least 2 dozen times in my 5 years here. Prove me wrong

I also noticed trends too

Folks from big cities with certain political leanings are very quick to accuse people they dont agree with of being a “bot” or a “paid Russian/whatever”. In their minds they honestly believe everyone else in the US subscribes to that same set of thinkin’ They believe this horse pucky so sincerely they figure more like a chance robots or Russian spies inflated some little known website. Ain’t that something!


Other trend I’d wager is the guy who gave the eye roll to transparency & accountability in the FAA probably works for the federal gov, reckon most any sensible person would want their goverment to be transparent & accountable, well unless they work somewhere that wouldn’t be able to survive some goood ol sunshine and cleaning

 

[David7700]

When you're on the internet long enough you start to notice trends.
Like when people show up on the forum and by day 3 they've already established themselves as a vocal contrarian/fight-picking in every thread they post in.
Fast forward 1 month and the troll is bored and leaves. I've seen it play out at least 2 dozen times in my 5 years here. Prove me wrong

I’ve been on aviation forums for many, many years, and you are 100% correct

 

[Llewtrah381]

I also noticed trends too

Folks from big cities with certain political leanings are very quick to accuse people they dont agree with of being a “bot” or a “paid Russian/whatever”. In their minds they honestly believe everyone else in the US subscribes to that same set of thinkin’ They believe this horse pucky so sincerely they figure more like a chance robots or Russian spies inflated some little known website. Ain’t that something!


Other trend I’d wager is the guy who gave the eye roll to transparency & accountability in the FAA probably works for the federal gov, reckon most any sensible person would want their goverment to be transparent & accountable, well unless they work somewhere that wouldn’t be able to survive some goood ol sunshine and cleaning

LOL

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, Shane on me

See ya in your next iteration!

 

[Bell206]

Also that ain’t how the FAA works, you are presumed guilty until proven innocent.

Ha. Not quite. There is established FAA guidance and policy that prevents that. The FAA has always had the burden of proof when it comes to violations.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

I also noticed trends too

Folks from big cities with certain political leanings are very quick to accuse people they dont agree with of being a “bot” or a “paid Russian/whatever”. In their minds they honestly believe everyone else in the US subscribes to that same set of thinkin’ They believe this horse pucky so sincerely they figure more like a chance robots or Russian spies inflated some little known website. Ain’t that something!

You sir, are definitely not a paid troll.
I firmly believe you're doing this off the clock, pro bono

 

[MauleSkinner]

Ha. Not quite. There is established FAA guidance and policy that prevents that. The FAA has always had the burden of proof when it comes to violations.

I think what he’s saying is if you go out and commit murder, they don’t lock you up until after you’re proven guilty in court.

 

[donjohnston]

When you're on the internet long enough you start to notice trends.
Like when people show up on the forum and by day 3 they've already established themselves as a vocal contrarian/fight-picking in every thread they post in.
Fast forward 1 month and the troll is bored and leaves. I've seen it play out at least 2 dozen times in my 5 years here. Prove me wrong

Agreed. This (T)roller shows up and in less than 3 weeks has almost 200 posts.

 

[Roller]

Ha. Not quite. There is established FAA guidance and policy that prevents that. The FAA has always had the burden of proof when it comes to violations.

Minus all the times I stated prior when they didn’t right?

 

[Llewtrah381]

Agreed. This (T)roller shows up and in less than 3 weeks has almost 200 posts.

Including starting this thread at 2:45AM here - about lunchtime at the Kremlin

 

[Bell206]

Minus all the times I stated prior when they didn’t right?

No. If you read up on how the system actually works, you'll find all your examples followed the proscribed process. Curious, how many times have you personally been through or dealt with the FAA enforcement process?

 

[James Dickinson]

Insanity

 

[Roller]

No. If you read up on how the system actually works, you'll find all your examples followed the proscribed process. Curious, how many times have you personally been through or dealt with the FAA enforcement process?

Once, medical side, theg didn’t even follow their own guidelines and they don’t have to prove you have an issue, you have to prove you don’t.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Umm it’s administrative “law”

Mr Barry Schiff:
Barry Schiff, a fine gentleman and flight instructor, found himself in a bit of a pickle when the FAA decided to suspend his flight instructor certificate. They said he wasn’t following air traffic control instructions, though he insisted he hadn’t done a thing wrong. The FAA took swift action, grounding him until he could prove his innocence in a drawn-out appeal. Eventually, his name was cleared, but it sure wasn’t an easy road, and he had to work hard to show he hadn’t violated any rules.

Mr Adil Elmasry
Now, take the case of Adil Elmasry, a commercial pilot who found himself at odds with the FAA over his medical certification. The FAA, after some concerns about his health, decided to revoke his medical certificate, assuming he wasn’t fit to fly. Despite his insistence that he was in tip-top shape, the burden fell on him to prove his fitness through multiple medical tests. The FAA had already made its mind up, and he had to jump through hoops to clear his name and get back in the cockpit.

Mr Dwayne White
Then there was Dwayne White, a commercial pilot who faced the FAA’s wrath after being accused of using a fake medical certificate. The FAA wasted no time revoking his license, and he had to go through a whole legal mess to prove he wasn’t guilty of what they said. The burden was on him to show he’d done nothing wrong, and he had to endure a long battle to restore his good name.

Mr John S. McCulloch
Lastly, there’s the case of John McCulloch, another commercial pilot who had his license suspended after the FAA suspected some health issues. They revoked his medical certificate based on their worries, and once again, it was on him to prove he was fit to fly. He had to go through numerous tests and evaluations, showing that the FAA was mistaken, and only after a lengthy process was he allowed to return to flying.

You see, in these cases, the FAA took action quickly, almost as if assuming guilt, and it was up to these fine folks to prove their innocence. It wasn’t a matter of being presumed innocent from the get-go, they had to fight tooth and nail to clear their names and keep their livelihoods intact. That’s just how things can go sometimes, even when you’re trying to do right by the rules.

I’m having a hard time finding specifics on any of these. Please provide some links and, in particular, clearly show due process was not afforded and that an actual punishment was involved.

I’d like to avoid “flooding the zone” with misleading info, if that’s the case here.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Is anyone really surprised the FAA has dragged out the seaplane version of the Trent Palmer case?

For the record, let’s remember Palmer’s situation was upheld all the way through an appeals court.

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-dc-circuit/116229013.html

 

[Roller]

Ain’t going to endlessly go back and forth with administrative law and big gov cheerleaders, posted the article and some info for what it’s worth, do with it as yall will

out

 

[Llewtrah381]

You say “out” - for now. I’ll keep an eye out for the Taylor Swift version of your bot. Should be entertaining!

Maybe add a Jarjar Binks version into a future rotation?

 

[Shepherd]

For the record, let’s remember Palmer’s situation was upheld all the way through an appeals court.

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-dc-circuit/116229013.html

It was a totally stupid ruling, and the bad guys circled the wagons to support their stupidity.

 

[Lindberg]

Is anyone really surprised the FAA has dragged out the seaplane version of the Trent Palmer case?

I'm going to save my surprise for when I learn the facts that are surprisingly missing from the ad for AOPA Pilot Protection Services. Like, for example, what the FAA said when the pilot in question informed them that he actually landed on the river; why the pilot in question, rather than the CFI on board, got the proposed suspension; and whether the landing could have been safely made without buzzing the bridge.

 

[flyingron]

I'm going to save my surprise for when I learn the facts that are surprisingly missing from the ad for AOPA Pilot Protection Services. Like, for example, what the FAA said when the pilot in question informed them that he actually landed on the river; why the pilot in question, rather than the CFI on board, got the proposed suspension; and whether the landing could have been safely made without buzzing the bridge.

The FAA policy is to go after the person they can do the most harm to. Apparently, in this case it wasn't the instructor.