- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 24,255
- Display Name
Display name:
Bob Noel
is there a temporal limiting clause there?
or is it applicable just now, not in the past, not in the future?
how far done the silly path shall we go?
[NA]Returning electric rental cars "full"?
- Thread starter Let'sgoflying!
- Start date
is there a temporal limiting clause there?
or is it applicable just now, not in the past, not in the future?
how far done the silly path shall we go?
NoBShere
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2014
- Messages
- 399
- Display Name
Display name:
NoBShere
in true POA fashion, i think the shark has been jumped.
disclaimer, I am not suggesting that anyone jump over a shark in an ICE or EV or am i saying that sharks can jump...
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
Correct. An EV will not move until you unplug it. At least, every EV I've ever driven.
BS. If someone tried to claim ICE was easier with that statement you guys would not let it pass. It's a stupid statement.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
Having heard so much about gas cars, we decided to test drive one. They are said to combine low price with long range and fast charging. Sounds great on paper – but how are they in real life?
We sat in the car at the dealer. Automakers do not sell the cars themselves, only through independent car repair shops as middlemen. It sounds like a bad omen to buy the car from a repair shop that you want to visit as seldom as possible, but you apparently can’t buy the car directly from the manufacturer. The seller was very pushy and tried to convince us to buy the car very forcibly, but the experience is perhaps better elsewhere.
So we sat in the car and pressed the START button. The car’s gasoline engine coughed to life and started to operate. One could hear the engine’s sound and the car’s whole body vibrated as if something was broken, but the seller assured us that everything was as it should. The car actually has an electric motor and a microscopically small battery, but they are only used to start the gas engine – the electric motor does not drive the wheels. The gas engine then uses a tank full of gasoline to propel the car by exploding small drops of it. It is apparently the small explosions that you hear and feel when the engine is running.
The gas engine consists of literally hundreds of moving parts that must have tolerance of hundredths of a millimeter to function. We begun to understand why it is car repair shops that sell the cars – they might hope for something to break in the car that they can mend?
We put in a gear and drove away with a jerk. The jerk came not from any extreme acceleration, but gasoline engines apparently cannot be driven as smoothly as electric motors. The acceleration did not occur at all, because we could not get the car to go faster than 40 km/h! By then the gas engine literally howled and the whole car shook violently. Convinced that something must have broken we stopped the car. The seller then explained that with gas engines you need to “change gears” on a regular basis. Between the engine and the wheels are not a fixed ratio gear, but a variable one. The gas engine can produce power only in a limited speed range, and must therefore be geared with different ratios in order to continue to accelerate. There are 5 different gears we can select with increasing speed as result. It is -as we learned quickly- very important that each time select a suitable gear otherwise the engine will either stop or get seriously damaged! You need a lot of training to learn to select the right gear at the right time – though there are also models with automatic transmissions that can do this themselves. In the manual transmission car, we needed to constantly guard the engine from damaging it. Very stressful.
We asked if the constant sound of the engine -that frankly disturbed us from being able to listen to the radio- could be turned off. But it couldn’t. Very distracting.
After getting the car up to speed through intricate changing of gears we approached a traffic light. Releasing the accelerator pedal resulted in no significant braking, we had to use the brake pedal very much to slow down the car. We were surprised to hear the brakes are completely mechanical! The only thing they generate is heat – braking gives no regeneration of gasoline back into the tank! Sounds like a huge waste, but it would soon get even worse.
When we came to a stop the engine continued to run and the car vibrate – even though the car was standing still! The engine continued to burn gasoline without moving the car forward. Can it really be true? Yes, the seller explained, it is so with gasoline cars: the engine is always running and burning gasoline – even when the car is stationary. Some models however switches off the engine at a red light, he explained. Well that certainly makes more sense.
After a while we came to a gas station where we could charge the car. The car claimed that it still had half a tank left, but we wanted to try the famous super-fast charging of gas cars!
So we drove to the gas station and opened the fuel cap. The filling nozzle is very similar to a charging connector, but it is not electrons that come out of it but gasoline. Gasoline is a highly carcinogenic, smelly and flammable liquid derived from plants and animals extinct since millions of years ago. The gasoline is pumped to a tank in the car, which then drives around with about 50 liters of this hazardous liquid in it.
We put the nozzle to the car, but nothing happened. The seller then explained that we must pay to fuel! Much like those extremely expensive fast chargers some electric utility companies have set up. After we put the credit card in the reader we could start fueling. It was extremely fast! In just two minutes we filled the gas tank to the max! But there were two counters on the pump: one that showed the number of liters we have fueled and one that showed how much it would cost us. And that counter was spinning so fast that we could hardly keep up with its pace! Sure we filled the tank full in two minutes, but it did cost us an unbelievable €30! A full charge would thus cost us double that – a whopping €60! We cursed our luck that we apparently have chosen one of the most expensive gas stations, and began to ask the seller what other alternatives are there? How much does it cost to fill up at home, and how many free stations are there?
The seller looked very puzzled at us and explained that it is not possible to refuel gasoline cars at home, and there are no free gas stations. We tried to explain our questions, in case he had misunderstood, but he insisted that you can not. Apparently you have to several times a month drive to the gas station to recharge your gas car at extortionate prices – there are no alternatives! We thought it was very strange that no gasoline car manufacturers have launched their own free gas stations?
There are no gas stations either where you can fill up more slowly at a cheaper price. We started calculating price versus consumption and came to the shocking conclusion that a gas car costs unimaginable €12 per 100km! Sure, electric cars could also theoretically come up to these amounts if they quick charged at one of the most expensive charging stations in the country – but for gas cars there are no cheaper alternatives! While electric cars are comfortably charged at home every night for €2 per 100km gas cars must make detours several times a month to fill up at these extortionate rates – without exception! Monthly cost for a gas car can -just for the gasoline alone- easily exceed one hundred Euros! We begun to understand why they are so cheap to purchase – operating them is extremely expensive instead.
We also begun to understand why there must be so many gas stations everywhere, if all gas cars always have to drive to them to refuel. Imagine if you could charge your electric car only at the power companies’ most expensive fast chargers – and nowhere else!
With this in mind we ended up in a traffic jam and was horrified that the gasoline engine continued to burn these expensive gasoline drops even when the car was standing still or moving very little. With gasoline vehicles it is easy to run into cost anxiety – the feeling that the car literally burns up your money! No cheap home charging and no regeneration of gasoline back to the fuel tank when braking sounds like economic madness – especially given that all gasoline must be imported from abroad.
We returned the car to the dealer, set the brakes and stepped out of the car. The gas engine continued to run! Apparently one must manually switch off the combustion of the precious liquid. But we wanted to see the gas engine, so the seller opened the bonnet. The entire front portion of the car was completely cluttered with hoses, fittings, fluid reservoirs, and amid all a huge shaking cast iron block which apparently constituted the motor’s frame. There was no space for luggage in the front of the car! Despite its enormous size, high noise and vibration, the engine barely delivered one hundred horsepower. The engine was also extremely hot, we burned ourselves when we touched it. Even though this was on a warm summer day so the engine did not need to generate heat to the passenger compartment.
We became also worried about what would happen if we crashed with a gas car? The cast iron block that occupied most of the engine compartment was sitting in the middle of the collision zone! Where would it go if we collided – would we get it in our lap? The salesman assured us that the motor in such case somehow gets folded down under the car but we could not escape the impression that the engine block was very much in the way at the front – the safety beams were built around it, which surely impairs their functionality. Avoiding that one hundred kilo iron lump in the front of the car makes it so much easier to build safe cars. In addition, we have seen on the Internet hundreds of pictures and videos of burning gasoline cars. The gas tank apparently often leaks after an accident so the flammable liquid pours out and becomes ignited!
From the engine, under the car runs an exhaust system – a kind of chimney for engine exhausts. When you burn the carcinogenic gasoline a lots of noxious gases are produced. The car cleans away the most dangerous gases, but what remains is released into the open air behind the car. It is still unhealthy to breathe in – and smells very bad! And gas cars are allowed to emit these harmful gases in the middle of our cities? Do not confuse gas cars’ exhaust pipes with fuel cell cars’ – while hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicles emit only water vapor gasoline cars spew out noxious gasses, and even fossil carbon dioxide that contribute to Earth’s future-catastrophic warming!
We thanked the seller for the display, shook our heads and gave back the ignition key (yes, it’s called that) to him. He realized that there would be no business for him so except for one lame attempt he did not try to sell us the car any more.
On the way home in our electric car we looked with completely different eyes at our poor fellow commuters, who still had to put up with their gasoline cars. But soon it will be their turn to trade up, too!
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2014
- Messages
- 9,855
- Location
- Broken Arrow, OK
- Display Name
Display name:
SoonerAviator
Depending on the layout/access, there are professionals who can run conduit/cable without tearing anything up other than maybe a flower bed or small patch of lawn. It's the main reason the company Ditch Witch exists, specifically horizontal directional drilling. They can run a line right up to the foundation with pretty incredible accuracy.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
OMG my brain is working overtime on this one.....I must back away from the keyboard..!!!!
Oh, also IBTL...
Ed Haywood
En-Route
Maybe banned topic list should include religion, politics, Cirrus, and EV? Though perhaps the last 2 are redundant.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
My 25 cents worth...(inflation)...
When I rent a car I have limited time, usually just 2 or 3 hours to get all my errands done before I needed to get back to the airport. I did not have time to pull out the DOH (see what I did there.??) and spend an hour or two on how to operate a car I am not used to. So a gas car, a no brainer, works best for me to rent.
When I rent a car I have limited time, usually just 2 or 3 hours to get all my errands done before I needed to get back to the airport. I did not have time to pull out the DOH (see what I did there.??) and spend an hour or two on how to operate a car I am not used to. So a gas car, a no brainer, works best for me to rent.
tspear
En-Route
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2010
- Messages
- 3,617
- Display Name
Display name:
Timothy
You assume that everyone wants single pedal operation. I detest it. I have driven multiple manufacturers implementations. I have not liked a single one.
This among many other reasons are why I will never get a Tesla. The mentality of the engineers is they know better than me on how I want to drive. That mentality rubs me the wrong way, especially when they are wrong
Tim
I actually love one pedal drive, both in the Tesla and my mustang. But I still agree with your sentiment.You assume that everyone wants single pedal operation. I detest it. I have driven multiple manufacturers implementations. I have not liked a single one.
This among many other reasons are why I will never get a Tesla. The mentality of the engineers is they know better than me on how I want to drive. That mentality rubs me the wrong way, especially when they are wrong
Tim
Ed Haywood
En-Route
You do know you can turn it off?
tspear
En-Route
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2010
- Messages
- 3,617
- Display Name
Display name:
Timothy
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,663
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
I’ve never understood the polarization of EVs. I’ve owned Hybrid (CMAX), plug in Hybrid (Volt) and two EVs (Model S / X). I can take them or leave um’. They’re nothing life changing. Just another form of propulsion that has pros / cons just like ICE.
The pros I’ve experienced-
1. Cool tech. (except FSD).
2. Performance. (Ludicrous mode).
3. Ride (quiet).
5. Operating cost (KWh vs Gas price)
The cons-
1. Cool tech…that brakes all the time.
2. Convenience. No one is ever going to convince me 30 minutes at a charger in a trip is better than 5 minutes getting gas.
3. Performance. Cold weather is brutal on range. Also rain.
4. Operating cost. This where the EV fan boys don’t like to talk about. Annual EV road tax ($230). Gieco insurance ($3K). Don’t even get me started on repair costs.
When it’s all said and done, EVs aren’t fit everyone and that’s ok. I drove ICE today for work and tomorrow I’ll drive EV. Options are nice.
The pros I’ve experienced-
1. Cool tech. (except FSD).
2. Performance. (Ludicrous mode).
3. Ride (quiet).
5. Operating cost (KWh vs Gas price)
The cons-
1. Cool tech…that brakes all the time.
2. Convenience. No one is ever going to convince me 30 minutes at a charger in a trip is better than 5 minutes getting gas.
3. Performance. Cold weather is brutal on range. Also rain.
4. Operating cost. This where the EV fan boys don’t like to talk about. Annual EV road tax ($230). Gieco insurance ($3K). Don’t even get me started on repair costs.
When it’s all said and done, EVs aren’t fit everyone and that’s ok. I drove ICE today for work and tomorrow I’ll drive EV. Options are nice.
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
I'm curious, what needs do you have that aren't met?
If I couldn't do a full EV, I'd definitely get a PHEV. In fact, the PHEV (Ford Fusion Energi) is what got me into electric driving in the first place. I'm kind of surprised that they seem to be on the way out.
The stupidity is making an absolute statement without any qualification or saying why or even asking any questions. That's not a conversation, it's just belittling others.
Interesting. What is it you don't like?
One thing that I was impressed with by my first PHEV, the aforementioned Ford Fusion Energi, was that Ford made it drive *very* much like a traditional ICE with an automatic like most people would have been used to at that point. Controls were the same as the other Fusions, and if you had it in D it would coast like an ICE. It was a really well-engineered car.
That said, because I liked it so much, and it got me to really like electric driving, and it had only a 21 mile rated EV range... I kind of became an efficiency nerd because I hated it when the engine kicked in, so that is what got me gravitating toward single pedal driving which you did in that car by shifting to L. I did like to coast in D for a bit and then switch to L, and maybe it's because I was coming from a stick shift and not an automatic, but I switched between D and L a lot in that car.
The Tesla has FAR more options that you can configure to make the car drive it just how you want it than any other car I've ever seen.This among many other reasons are why I will never get a Tesla. The mentality of the engineers is they know better than me on how I want to drive. That mentality rubs me the wrong way, especially when they are wrong
However, they did remove the ability to turn off single-pedal because there were very few people who actually used that option.
Not any more.
Can I get an EV with a manual transmission?
No, but you can't get one with an automatic transmission either.
Polarization is profitable.
Early on, EVs had terrible performance (see the Nissan Leaf for example, with its 110hp and 73 mile range) so they had to be sold by appealing to environmentalists. The oil industry was still threatened and spent a lot of money spreading FUD, and conservative media jumped all over it because people loved sharing the articles that said how dumb EVs were.
Ironically, conservatives used to hate Elon Musk because he made EVs, and now they love him.
FSD is getting cooler. Autopilot has always been cool.
What was #4?
I can tell you've owned a Model X. The other EVs are far more reliable.
The worst thing I've had happen to any of my electrified vehicles? My Volt kicked the bucket. Cue all of the EV-haters: "Did your battery die?" Nope... Blew a head gasket on the engine. The battery and motor allowed me to drive it to the shop instead of waiting on the side of the road in the cold for a tow truck, and subsequently to CarMax to get rid of it.
EVs that aren't hauling around a spare gas engine are far more reliable... IF they don't have a million moving parts added to make things like fancy variable-lift obstacle-detecting falcon wing doors.
3 seconds in my garage to plug it in absolutely beats the hell out of standing outside in this -4ºF weather for 5 minutes getting gas, though. And if you add up all the time spent charging in a year, even with road trips it's likely a wash compared to gassing up - A person who goes to the gas station twice a week for 5 minutes will spend nearly 9 hours of their year fueling. Compared to my 6 seconds per day (3 in, 3 out) I'd have to charge on the road for over 8 hours or so to make it even. So I'd put convenience in the "pro" list instead of the con list.
Yikes! My insurance went down, not up. The extra EV fees tick me off, though - Yes, I want to pay my fair share of the cost of the roads, but 3x my share, not so much.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
TBH that is a function of the cars you selected. Model S was Tesla's first production vehicle, so it bore the brunt of their learning curve, and the X is a notoriously over-complicated design.
I have not spent one red cent on maintenance or repairs in the 5 years I have owned my Model 3. Actually, I take that back, I did replace the 12v battery and tires at 4 years.
But any fair comparison has to account for the lack of expense and hassle to replace oil, coolant, ATF fluid, belts, plugs, filters, gaskets, etc etc etc. That is IMO the single biggest advantage of EV's
Last edited:
flyingcheesehead
Taxi to Parking
That's not fair. You're not covering EVERYTHING with your 12V battery and tires. I had to pour a bottle of washer fluid in mine the other day too.
(FWIW, I'm at 70,000 miles, still on the factory 12V battery and rubber, though I do need to replace that...)
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 24,255
- Display Name
Display name:
Bob Noel
cold weather range.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
- Messages
- 15,663
- Display Name
Display name:
Velocity173
Yeah all you guys made smart decisions with Model 3s. Nice car. Paramedic at work just brought in a 2024 yesterday. I kinda prefer the old styling over the refresh though. I like the performance version but I don’t care for the base models.
The Model X is a beast. One that’s way over complicated though. It’s like an F-14. When everything works it’s a thing of beauty, but when she breaks? Ouch! I think the Tomcat required 30 hrs of maint for 1 hr of flight and parts were hard to come by. Kinda sums up the X.