A Socio economic discussion about boomers.

[172andyou]

If the choice is eating or having a cell phone, I know what I'm choosing.

Yeah, but if the choice is having a cell phone and, therefore, having email, text messaging and the ability to get a job, or not having a cell phone...

I mean, it's not at all practical to be disconnected. It's not 1995 when a cell phone was mostly a luxury on top of a home phone and a computer. Now it replaces the home phone and is the computer (at least for the poor). The whole notion of cell phones being luxury items is a holdover from a previous generation. email, web access, messaging, phone all wrapped into one is not only not a luxury, but it's the cheapest way to get access to what you need to do a job search and be employable.

 

[SkyChaser]

If we're talking cheapest, it is most likely much cheaper to get a pay-as-you-go flip phone from Walmart and use the local library's computers. I wouldn't classify a cellphone as a luxury, but a lot of smartphones today fall into that category. No one *needs* an iphone or a Samsung that folds up, but a lot of people think they do.

I have no issue with people who want to work to put their kids into daycare, but it is rather silly to say that it is impossible to live on one income when in fact, most people are since most or all of the second income is being eaten through daycare, cost of second car/wear and tear/doubled gas costs, and lack of ability or energy to do things yourself like preparing homemade food, mowing your own lawn, and doing basic maintenance like oil changes for the car which save oodles of money.

When I was working as a preschool teacher at a daycare, I knew at least three moms who were literally paying to have a job just totalling up daycare and gas costs.

 

[172andyou]

If we're talking cheapest, it is most likely much cheaper to get a pay-as-you-go flip phone from Walmart and use the local library's computers.

Remember that 2-bit also told people to find cheaper rent. Places that are cheaper to rent don't have libraries nearby. The one in my rural community is only open twice a month and the closest with regular hours is about 35 minutes away.

I wouldn't classify a cellphone as a luxury, but a lot of smartphones today fall into that category. No one *needs* an iphone or a Samsung that folds up, but a lot of people think they do.

Sure. But how about a three year old iphone or samsung that cost $150. That's a need.

Focusing on $1200 foldables seems a bit like casting a shadow on someone claiming that groceries are a real need because some groceries are a luxury.

Yes, poor people need food and it's possible to waste money on food.
Yes, poor people need cell phones and it's possible to waste money on cell phones or plans.

 

[UngaWunga]

I do remember during the 2008 housing recession, at least locally, it was the McMansions that sat without a buyer. The smaller homes moved relatively easily.

And the price of houses will never see those levels again. Investors with cash bought a lot during that time period. Wages have not kept up with inflation, and houses costs have tripled or more since then.

 

[UngaWunga]

Remember that 2-bit also told people to find cheaper rent. Places that are cheaper to rent don't have libraries nearby. The one in my rural community is only open twice a month and the closest with regular hours is about 35 minutes away.


Sure. But how about a three year old iphone of samsung that cost $150. That's a need.

Focusing on $1200 foldables seems a bit like casting a shadow on someone claiming that groceries are a real need because some groceries are a luxury.

Yes, poor people need food and it's possible to waste money on food.
Yes, poor people need cell phones and it's possible to waste money on cell phones or plans.

Its the silly avocado toast argument. Looks like a lot of people have not actually talked and listened to a person in their twenties recently.

 

[MauleSkinner]

At least if you work you'll get more in Social Security someday.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends how much you make relative to the primary breadwinner.

 

[SkyChaser]

Remember that 2-bit also told people to find cheaper rent. Places that are cheaper to rent don't have libraries nearby. The one in my rural community is only open twice a month and the closest with regular hours is about 35 minutes away.


Sure. But how about a three year old iphone or samsung that cost $150. That's a need.

Focusing on $1200 foldables seems a bit like casting a shadow on someone claiming that groceries are a real need because some groceries are a luxury.

Yes, poor people need food and it's possible to waste money on food.
Yes, poor people need cell phones and it's possible to waste money on cell phones or plans.

I grew up in a small town with 1 bed apartments renting for about $500/mo and they had a small library open part time every day except Sunday and Monday so perhaps I am skewed in that regard. If you don't have a library, it makes marginally more sense to get a smartphone.

That said, even $150 is way too much to spend on a phone if you actually are wondering if you should buy groceries or a cellphone. I have never spent $150 on a phone in my life, and yes, I have a smartphone. One was a Shopko store brand and my current is a Motorola. My first smartphone was $35 and the one I currently own and bought in 2020 to replace that one was $90 including tax and shipping. I've priced out a replacement for mine, even a bit of an upgrade, because I accidentally dropped it and cracked the glass about six months ago, but it was $140 and I just don't think it's worth it.

I am not trying to make an avocado toast argument or claim a need is a luxury - and I am in my mid-twenties so I actually do understand the modern reliance on technology. I also still wash and reuse ziploc bags several times before throwing them out because for a significant period of my childhood, you either ate what was on the table or you didn't eat because there was no grocery budget for accomodating picky eaters. I know a bit about making choices and determining what is a need and what is a luxury.

 

[Ventucky Red]

When I was working as a preschool teacher at a daycare, I knew at least three moms who were literally paying to have a job just totalling up daycare and gas costs.

We knew someone like this and when asked why she did it..."if I didn't I would go nuts.." She is a Type A driven person.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

Remember that 2-bit also told people to find cheaper rent.

The argument was that 'the numbers are against them.' My response was, "change the numbers."

 

[Half Fast]

You guys arguing how near to impossible it is to scrape by on a single income and that doing so means a life of poverty might want to think a little bit about the fact that @2-Bit Speed and @SkyChaser are making it work very well. One income (and not C-suite), both in their twenties, and it's not like they're living like monks. Two nice cars (loan-free), cell phones, a few toys, a vacation trip a time or two a year, building a 401k, and they just bought a home without subsisting on rice and beans.

​

 

[Oldmanb777]

I see a lot of people who have a second income to afford what they call necessities. The boat, the second car, cable tv with numerous subscriptions, the vacation at Disney World, and the Disney cruise etc. If you are not making it, and I think most on here are doing well, or you wouldn't be involved in airplanes. Anway, if your career goal is flipping burgers at the place with the arches, you can't really expect to drive a Rolls Royce powered airplane. Although I know one who started there and never left the arches, who can easily afford that. But maybe you need to re think your career goals.

 

[eman1200]

You guys arguing how near to impossible it is to scrape by on a single income and that doing so means a life of poverty might want to think a little bit about the fact that @2-Bit Speed and @SkyChaser are making it work very well. One income (and not C-suite), both in their twenties, and it's not like they're living like monks. Two nice cars (loan-free), cell phones, a few toys, a vacation trip a time or two a year, building a 401k, and they just bought a home without subsisting on rice and beans.

View attachment 136163​

but but but the TV told them it CANT BE DONE!!!!! or maybe it was a Facebook meme.

 

[Oldmanb777]

Back to the topic. What will happen when the baby boomers give up and the kids get the money. Or better yet, lets say you are a baby boomer with means. You decide to gift your grand kid $10k a year, and you live for another 20 yrs doing that. So if my math is correct, without growth that's $200k in the UGMA. So now all those 20 yr olds take their UGMA money and try to buy something, say a house. What happens to the price of the house with all that money flowing around. So similar to college tuition. UGMA accounts, college invest etc accounts. So potential students had money to burn, and student loans to fan the flames. Maybe college got expensive for a reason. It's certainly not for future financial success of the grads.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Back to the topic. What will happen when the baby boomers give up and the kids get the money. Or better yet, lets say you are a baby boomer with means. You decide to gift your grand kid $10k a year, and you live for another 20 yrs doing that. So if my math is correct, without growth that's $200k in the UGMA. So now all those 20 yr olds take their UGMA money and try to buy something, say a house. What happens to the price of the house with all that money flowing around. So similar to college tuition. UGMA accounts, college invest etc accounts. So potential students had money to burn, and student loans to fan the flames. Maybe college got expensive for a reason. It's certainly not for future financial success of the grads.

College got expensive when the government started backing all of the student loans and making it near impossible to dismiss them even through bankruptcy. That created a scenario where colleges had no incentive to keep tuition low because they had guaranteed money no matter what. Couple that with the push by corporate America to require 4-yr degrees for jobs that didn't previously need that hurdle, and you've got a spike in demand.

I still think they need to axe all of the government ment backing and allow the debt to be dismissed. I bet if the universities were having to hand out credit those tuition payments would plummet, along with about 30% of the degree programs that don't result in gainful employment. Sorry art history majors.

 

[Daleandee]

What will happen when the baby boomers give up and the kids get the money.

I've warned my kids & grandkids that when they come to the reading of the will to bring their checkbooks and credit cards as there will be people there waiting to get their money back ...

 

[SoonerAviator]

You guys arguing how near to impossible it is to scrape by on a single income and that doing so means a life of poverty might want to think a little bit about the fact that @2-Bit Speed and @SkyChaser are making it work very well. One income (and not C-suite), both in their twenties, and it's not like they're living like monks. Two nice cars (loan-free), cell phones, a few toys, a vacation trip a time or two a year, building a 401k, and they just bought a home without subsisting on rice and beans.

View attachment 136163​

I don't recall saying anything was IMPOSSIBLE. Just that it becomes really difficult when you have a single income below the median wage and home/durable goods prices that are highly inflated. Many people live paycheck to paycheck their whole lives, even when they spend responsibly. It's just keeping the discussion honest when you recognize that many people are on a shoestring budget and not everyone has the intelligence and means to dig themselves out of it without decades of struggle. That potentially leaves a lot of McMansions out there that the Boomers are trying to offload and not enough younger people with the means (or desire) to buy them, unless Boomers are willing to take a much lower price. We all see how old pilots are when trying to sell that airplane that hasn't flown in 20 years, the price never comes down until they die or run out of hangar rent money.

 

[Oldmanb777]

Do you suppose when the kids inherit the wealth that prices will soar? So we have a place in a touristy area. It has had its ups and downs. 10 yrs ago, much of the neighborhood was built by the owners. Many of them built their cabin with their own hands in the 70's and 80's. Hammering the nails, etc. We have been having a major shift in ownership. Probably over 60% turnover in the last maybe 5 or 6 yrs.
The new owners are very different. They don't do for themselves. IE they don't repaint the house themselves, they hire it done. They don't repair the deck, etc. Many of the people selling are aging and so it makes sense to sell. Maintenace and the climate here etc. Others are in a place where, "do you know what we can do with that reticules amount of money?" So they are selling. The people buying are often in their 30's, driving a Range Rover, towing a boat and buying very expensive second homes. So the transfer of wealth is happening, now. How far will it go?

 

[UngaWunga]

 

[172andyou]

College got expensive when the government started backing all of the student loans and making it near impossible to dismiss them even through bankruptcy.

That mattered, for sure. But don't forget that state funding for universities went down about 80% starting in the 80's. So things got squeezed hard from both sides.

 

[SoonerAviator]

That mattered, for sure. But don't forget that state funding for universities went down about 80% starting in the 80's. So things got squeezed hard from both sides.

That is also a big factor in it. They certainly had to make up for budget shortfalls, but having a new (intrinsically) funding source backed by the government didn't give them any reason to hold back. I even considered tuition to be reasonable when I attended (roughly $100/credit hour). 4 years of college would run you $12K or so. Not a bad investment compared to the return. It really started getting out of hand by 2010 and afterwards where it's now 2-3Xs as expensive. The building that held the College of Business in was filled with fancy woodwork, marble floors, granite tables, and fully automated classrooms for window shades, PA system, etc.

The College of Education was a run down older building still using chalkboards, lol. I used to joke with my friend (an elementary education major) that they were preparing her for a career in public schools with outdated equipment and no funding!

 

[Mooney Fan]

I'm a boomer looking at 65 hard. We would like to downsize off our 9 acres and 2700 square foot home but sitting on that 2.25% mortgage is hard to give up.

I guess my kids will thank me later ((((sigh)))

 

[Bob Noel]

I'm a boomer looking at 65 hard. We would like to downsize off our 9 acres and 2700 square foot home but sitting on that 2.25% mortgage is hard to give up.

I guess my kids will thank me later ((((sigh)))

don't overlook how much the downsized place will cost...

 

[Mooney Fan]

don't overlook how much the downsized place will cost...

Yep- In my area about $185 a square foot to build something new.

8 years ago when I retired built at $112 a square foot.

 

[Oldmanb777]

My area is running $300 per sq ft. some a bit over, some a bit under. Depends on neighborhood, county etc. Fancy houses are way over. Preexisting really is dependent on neighborhood, but generally less. If its already built, price per sq ft doesn't mean much. Geographical area and neighborhood means everything.

 

[JackL-3J]

That mattered, for sure. But don't forget that state funding for universities went down about 80% starting in the 80's. So things got squeezed hard from both sides.

When my father used his GI bill money to go to college, he had two roommates, there was one lavatory per floor, there was a cafeteria, students could work out in the "old gym" when it wasn't in team use, and the rec room had ping-pong tables and a TV..

When I went to college, there were one and two-person suites that shared a bathroom, a cafeteria with a salad, taco, and burger bar, a pub, and a dedicated gym with an indoor pool.

When my son went to college, all of the dorms were single occupancy, each with a bathroom, and the rec center, and cafeteria had been "upgraded" with private companies running what became a "fitness center" and a "food court". (The school's pub closed, but there were three or four just a few feet from campus. Each much fancier than the "Rat[skeller]".)

Forgetting inflation, in constant dollars, what my father paid for his degree was what I paid in a year, and what my son paid in a semester.

 

[172andyou]

When my father used his GI bill money to go to college, he had two roommates, there was one lavatory per floor, there was a cafeteria, students could work out in the "old gym" when it wasn't in team use, and the rec room had ping-pong tables and a TV..

When I went to college, there were one and two-person suites that shared a bathroom, a cafeteria with a salad, taco, and burger bar, a pub, and a dedicated gym with an indoor pool.

When my son went to college, all of the dorms were single occupancy, each with a bathroom, and the rec center, and cafeteria had been "upgraded" with private companies running what became a "fitness center" and a "food court". (The school's pub closed, but there were three or four just a few feet from campus. Each much fancier than the "Rat[skeller]".)

Forgetting inflation, in constant dollars, what my father paid for his degree was what I paid in a year, and what my son paid in a semester.

Remember to compare apples to apples. The tuition costs do not include lodging. Tuition alone has exploded.

For lodging, you get what you pay for. Our daughter had a setup pretty similar to what your dad did. University of Illinois looks pretty similar: https://www.housing.illinois.edu/living-communities/halls/allen

 

[ateamer]

Gen X here. The community college I went to in the mid 80s cost a couple hundred a semester, or maybe that was per year. Books and materials was a hundred or less. There were no fees or assessments attached. If you were hungry, there was a small, adequate cafeteria with mostly prepackaged sandwiches and such. Or you could do something really crazy amd bring lunch from home. There were plenty of places to sit and hang out. Parking could be a bit of a walk, but it was free. If you wanted activities to do with other students, well, it was a beach town, there were plenty of parks, bars if you were of age, no shortage of things to do.

Then over the years the Good Idea Fairy started making visits. The college administration got the county voters to approve massive - tens of millions of dollars - bonds to improve the campus. They built a big, opulent “student life center” for kids to hang out. The bookstore was expanded from a sufficent, if a bit cramped, room where you picled up textbooks to a spacious, modern store. Just in time for the internet to obsolete it. They built a 500 seat theater to supplement the existing one, plus a several hundred seat concert hall. The new theater has a huge stage with a multistory extension to hold several backdrops for the annual play.

Today, it costs six to seven hundred per semester, plus a bunch of fees for things like health care, parking, student activities (again, it’s not only a beach town, but also has mountains and redwood forests - people go there from all over the world, and they think the students need to have a local yokel college come up with recreational ideas?), even a “student representation fee” for the student council.

I can only imagine how much universities level this crap up to play at the state level. At least they have dorms and the students aren’t living at home practically next door.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Gen X here. The community college I went to in the mid 80s cost a couple hundred a semester, or maybe that was per year.

The state university I attended was $1,273.35 per semester for residents when I first went there in the fall of 1993. With inflation, that would be $2,780.16 today.

In state tuition today at the same university is $5,198.92 per semester, or 87% higher than it would be from inflation alone.

Six to seven hundred per semester for a community college is a deal. The local one here is $149.50/credit so about $1800 for a lower end "full load".

 

[hindsight2020]

buncha ladder pullers is why.

 

[172andyou]

Gen X here. The community college I went to in the mid 80s cost a couple hundred a semester, or maybe that was per year.

Today, it costs six to seven hundred per semester

If only adjusted for inflation, $200 in the 80's is $750 today. So, at least in that respect, the cost of that school has been flat for 40 years. That's pretty impressive!

 

[kyleb]

The reality is there was a nexus of events.

- The existing schools updated all that nappy-assed post-WWII infrastructure.
- They added amenities because that is part of the "USSnooze" rankings.
- Same thing with faculty. Upgrades because of US Snooze.
- States pulling back on subsidies.

The higher cost gets passed on to someone, and since the states largely bowed out, it falls on the students. Fortunately, student loans are easy to get.

There is/was a shady chiropractic school near me where the school went all out to help students get student loans. Which were immediately used to pay tuition at said school. Most of the graduates found the degree(s) to be something other than a recipe for financial success. So the school got paid, the students got a worthless piece of paper, and the student and the lending institution got stuck with a bad loan. Luckily it was a private school. Its owners came out OK. ;-)

 

[Bill]

We moved into the downsized retirement home 10yrs before retirement. Love being a 10min walk from over 30 restaurants and bars. Love walking and biking to places, try to avoid driving as much as possible.

 

[ateamer]

If only adjusted for inflation, $200 in the 80's is $750 today. So, at least in that respect, the cost of that school has been flat for 40 years. That's pretty impressive!

Ah, I had not considered that. With seeing what the college dumps money into these days, they could actually cut tuition by a fair chunk if they’d cut out the luxuries and fluff.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Ah, I had not considered that. With seeing what the college dumps money into these days, they could actually cut tuition by a fair chunk if they’d cut out the luxuries and fluff.

Using my Alma mater as an example, the demo'd 3 "towers" which were the Freshman dorms. Concrete walled buildings from back in the 60s (included fallout shelter in the basement) which were generally 2-suites joined by a bathroom, so 4 people total. They weren't luxurious but they were functional, and while we were more than ready to get into a regular apartment or house after that 1st year, we still remember them fondly for the experience.

The university replaced the towers with a "village" of new apartments which I would consider nicer than any apartment in the area. So they incurred tons of debt to build a whole new complex that wasn't really necessary other than to compete with "student life" rankings. Old buildings were steel, brick, and concrete, so no real maintenance there. New ones are typical stick build apartments with drywall and wood floors. A plumbing leak now becomes a serious issue.

And we wonder why tuition/room and board goes up . . .

 

[172andyou]

Using my Alma mater as an example, the demo'd 3 "towers" which were the Freshman dorms. Concrete walled buildings from back in the 60s (included fallout shelter in the basement) which were generally 2-suites joined by a bathroom, so 4 people total. They weren't luxurious but they were functional, and while we were more than ready to get into a regular apartment or house after that 1st year, we still remember them fondly for the experience.

The university replaced the towers with a "village" of new apartments which I would consider nicer than any apartment in the area. So they incurred tons of debt to build a whole new complex that wasn't really necessary other than to compete with "student life" rankings. Old buildings were steel, brick, and concrete, so no real maintenance there. New ones are typical stick build apartments with drywall and wood floors. A plumbing leak now becomes a serious issue.

And we wonder why tuition/room and board goes up . . .

I can't speak to whether or not the new dorms are overbuilt or overly expensive, but remember that there are a lot of situations where it's cheaper/more effective to tear down an older building than to renovate it. Walker and Couch, for example, had mold problems and Adams had been empty because a burst pipe damaged the building beyond economic repair.

 

[Fiveslide]

We have a ski boat that is older than I am, lol

I don't know how some of these people buy new wakeboard boats. I don't think Malibu even manufactures a boat that costs less than we paid for our home five years ago. I think people are taking out 20+ year loans to buy them, too. If it weren't for old stuff, we wouldn't have anything.

 

[Bill]

I don't know how some of these people buy new wakeboard boats.

A few years back there was a guy in our maintenance department, makes $20/hr, who came to work bragging about the new wakeboat he had just purchased. We asked him what he paid, he was proud to say he paid $90k and was “boss of the lake.”

Dude’s nuts!

 

[ateamer]

As an aside, does anyone waterski anymore? When I got away from waterskiing in the early 90s, wakeboards were just showing up. Last time I was at a lake, it looked like 100% were wakeboarding, no skis at all.

 

[ateamer]

- They added amenities because that is part of the "USSnooze" rankings.
- Same thing with faculty. Upgrades because of US Snooze.

I don’t get why it’s so important for colleges and hospitals to get a good grade from what’s just a free newspaper for hotel lobbies.

 

[tspear]

As an aside, does anyone waterski anymore? When I got away from waterskiing in the early 90s, wakeboards were just showing up. Last time I was at a lake, it looked like 100% were wakeboarding, no skis at all.

Both brothers and nieces and nephews do. SIL also occasionally will do so. I have not in many years, never really enjoyed water skiing.

Tim