FFS. I need a new hobby.

Jim K

Jim K

360 For Spacing
Management Council Member
PoA Supporter
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
6,118
Location
Knee deep in a Lycoming
Display Name
Display name:
Richard Digits
This ****ing airplane.

Had a small oil leak behind the prop. Decided to wait for annual, assuming it was a crank seal. Mechanic pulled the prop and found the plug over the governor shaft loose & leaking. Same exact failure as 2.5 years ago. I was *n* hours from having a windshield full of oil again. If you don't know what I'm taking about, see here: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...-most-expensive-way-to-get-to-florida.136647/

Governor shaft was grinding away at plug:
IMG_20241016_202809.jpg

So the engine has to come off again. 375 hours after the last repair.

Thought maybe Chris at Airworx might be curious to see why his repair failed so quickly. He basically told me to **** off in not so many words:

That is very strange that the shaft would try to move again. We don’t do SI’s unless specifically requested but do the AD required. Our warranty is only 100 hrs for the work performed on an IRAN. There are so many variables that unless we do a full overhaul we have no control over the other parts in the engine.. I’m wondering if there is case anomaly causing the issue. Sounds to me like a new case might be needed.

Sincerely,

Chris Collum

COO

Airworx LLC.

251-809-2959
Click to expand...

So I gave him 20 grand and got 375 hours. Did he do it wrong? Is the case somehow ****ed? Is lyco's new shaft retention design flawed? Who knows, but i have my guess. Of course it's impossible to tell without tearing the engine down. Which makes it unusable as a core. With the above response, devoid of any curiosity or offer to help, I don't think I want him touching it again anyways.

Now I have zero confidence in this engine, and it's over a year and 70k to get another one out of lycoming.

If i was smart I'd @hindsight2020 this POS.

Trying to decide my next move. Strongly considering buying a used engine and overhauling it myself this winter with my a&p's supervision (if I can talk him into it). Certainly faster than getting into an engine shop these days.

I've gotten more satisfaction out of flying than any thing else I've ever done, but **** like this is really hard to push through.
 
ain’t enough asterisks to describe that situation. sorry Jim.
 
But really, how is this unique to flying… this sort of REALLY horrible service is the norm in a disposable society.

Sorry to hear it! I really am. I like your plan of building your own. Keep us in the loop.

My dad is up to four A&Ps that can’t time a mag on a Taylorcraft…

Me, I watch TWELVE employees ignore me in a deli and can’t get a sandwich…
 
Damn, I'm really sorry Jim.
 
Man that really blows, really sorry to hear it. Customer service these days is gone in every industry it seems. Of course a road trip might be in order to have a face to face conversation and at least jam that plug down his f@ckin throat. Remember a night in jail is just 1 night but the memory lasts forever :cool:
 
Sorry for your troubles unfortunately customer service is lacking in the aviation industry. There’s always a new customer right around the corner .Good luck
 
Sorry to hear. It’s only money and you only live once, but there may be better things to spend it on…and you don’t want to be in a hole that you can’t dig out of. If it’s not all about the $$$, your rant is still valid about everything else.

I don’t know what I don’t know, but so doesn’t my A&Ps. My working on something just adds another variable. But if something goes wrong, at least I’M the one to blame!

I’ve assembled a few engines and raced them successfully, and also made a few mistakes…but I’m thinking I would want to tackle my own cylinder changes or overhaul with my A&P’s close oversight and my own care and diligence. However I wonder how the new FAA ruling on mechanic oversight would be handled for compliance.

Rock & a hard place. That high wing Cessna ragged out rental/club plane is calling your name again.
 
Kitch said:
Man that really blows, really sorry to hear it. Customer service these days is gone in every industry it seems. Of course a road trip might be in order to have a face to face conversation and at least jam that plug down his f@ckin throat. Remember a night in jail is just 1 night but the memory lasts forever :cool:
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Just wondering if the warranty terms (100 hours) were disclosed prior to Airworx starting the repair?
 
Getting the parts for a used engine to do it yourself may or may not take longer than having a shop do the overhaul. Certainly learn a lot though!

While personally have had good service from Chris' shop, have also had fairly rapid (by today's standards) IRAN and overhauls done by Triple V in Cincinnati, Terry McRoberts' shop.

A new new Lycoming IO-540 is probably pushing 100k. If good for 2000 hours, that's $50 per hour. Your IRAN was about $53/hr starting with an engine that was used about 50 hours/year in the previous 16 years. Don't know how thorough the major was in 2006 . While the failure mode you've unfortunately experienced twice is horrifying, the overall financial picture is not that dire. Always assume that after purchasing an aircraft that you'll have to do the engine, particularly since too few fly enough to likely make TBO. Warrantees on new engines are prorated at 30 or 40 hours per MONTH typically.
 
It seems you are way past the warranty period. Maybe instead of email, call him and see if he would do the repairs at cost. Or just go somewhere else.
 
I know this is outside the scope of this question but can someone explain what happened here?
 
francisco collazos said:
I know this is outside the scope of this question but can someone explain what happened here?
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Jim got the shaft. Twice.

Sorry to hear about this Jim. Why are you forced to tear down again? The amount of metal created?
 
Ugh! That sucks, Jim!

Tools said:
But really, how is this unique to flying… this sort of REALLY horrible service is the norm in a disposable society.
Click to expand...
WRT “disposable society,” 6 months ago the shop told my wife, “you need a new engine.” Not an overhaul/reman/repair/whatever. Only option was new. (And yes, that was truly the only option.)

This week it’s, “you need a new transmission.”

At least our old airplane engines were designed and built to be repairable. :(

Oh…and we’re not doing the new transmission. We’re doing a new vehicle. Anybody need a 2016 Escape? Great condition, 238,000 miles, but only 10,000 miles on the engine. ;)
 
MauleSkinner said:
This week it’s, “you need a new transmission.”


Oh…and we’re not doing the new transmission. We’re doing a new vehicle. Anybody need a 2016 Escape? Great condition, 238,000 miles, but only 10,000 miles on the engine. ;)
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Go to car-part.com and buy a transmission near you. Pay a local mechanic a few hours labor to swap it out. Even if you still sell the car, you'll get more out of a running car.
 
This sucks. I don't know enough about the mechanical part of airplanes to make any smart comments, but it absolutely sucks! You're always welcome to take a ride in our Comanche down here in Texas!
 
975ozy.jpg
 
******n. I'm sorry Jim.

Iirc wasn't the NTSB or FAA really interested in the failure? I'd probably be contacting them and giving an update.
 
Jim K said:
Had a small oil leak behind the prop. Decided to wait for annual, assuming it was a crank seal. Mechanic pulled the prop and found the plug over the governor shaft loose & leaking.
Click to expand...
What is the exact model of this engine? I (and I think a few others) are curious as to how that happened. A look at the parts catalog should be informative.
 
Tools said:
Me, I watch TWELVE employees ignore me in a deli and can’t get a sandwich…
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At the rate this self serve world is going, don't be surprised if they make you put the mayo on yourself when you do get that sandwich
 
Some years ago, I had the control arm bushings replaced on the car. I use an independent mechanic that specializes on that particular brand, while charging a reasonable amount for parts and labor.

About a year and a half later, the replacement bushings failed. Mileage on them was low (well below national average) and despite the parts being out of warranty at that point, my mechanic still worked with the supplier to have them replaced undew warranty, while also not charging me for replacement labor.
Now that's customer service.

Having someone tell you the warrantly is less than 5% of the engine's expected lifetime is absolutely insulting. Especially on a part where you, as the user, have no dirrct way of affecting its reliability. It would be another thing if it was a cylinder assembly that was damaged through repeated overheating or detonation.
Pretty sad that they chose not to stand behind their work.
Reminds me of the old "we'll offer you our tail light warranty - it's under warranty until we can't see your tail light anymore" joke.
Stories like this one (and other overhauls that took more than a year) are why I'm considering working with my A&P and just rebuilding the engine ourselves when the time comes.
 
Gosh I’m sorry what a nightmare.

I don’t even know what part that is in your photo, could it be a fake part or something to swap? I’m guessing not something so simple given the ****.

I’m joining the A&P program in January, come join me. I think the second year is the engine overhaul part but might be on par with waiting for Lycoming.

Is this just something that is happening with older engines / airplanes? Or certain airplanes just have their flaws? I am thinking to change airplanes but I like the reliability of my airplane, the issues are small (so far). I don’t want to change into a mess but maybe something built in the 21st century will yield better maintenance?
 
AV8R_87 said:
Some years ago, I had the control arm bushings replaced on the car. I use an independent mechanic that specializes on that particular brand, while charging a reasonable amount for parts and labor.

About a year and a half later, the replacement bushings failed. Mileage on them was low (well below national average) and despite the parts being out of warranty at that point, my mechanic still worked with the supplier to have them replaced undew warranty, while also not charging me for replacement labor.
Now that's customer service.

Having someone tell you the warrantly is less than 5% of the engine's expected lifetime is absolutely insulting. Especially on a part where you, as the user, have no dirrct way of affecting its reliability. It would be another thing if it was a cylinder assembly that was damaged through repeated overheating or detonation.
Pretty sad that they chose not to stand behind their work.
Reminds me of the old "we'll offer you our tail light warranty - it's under warranty until we can't see your tail light anymore" joke.
Stories like this one (and other overhauls that took more than a year) are why I'm considering working with my A&P and just rebuilding the engine ourselves when the time comes.
Click to expand...
Right up there with the 10-10 warranty. 10 days or 10 miles, whichever comes first, lol.
 
Dang, this sucks, I’m sorry to hear!
AV8R_87 said:
Having someone tell you the warrantly is less than 5% of the engine's expected lifetime is absolutely insulting. Especially on a part where you, as the user, have no dirrct way of affecting its reliability. It would be another thing if it was a cylinder assembly that was damaged through repeated overheating or detonation.
Pretty sad that they chose not to stand behind their work.
Click to expand...
Agree. Good to know who not to use. Several of the bigger name shops do a 3yr or TBO warranty on an overhaul. They can be a bit more costly upfront, but might just pay for itself. 100hrs on an IRAN is hardly anything. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this, Jim! :(
 
Jim, after the previous repair you still had an oil leak. Did you resolve it back then, or could it have been an indication of a bad repair?
 
Half Fast said:
Jim, after the previous repair you still had an oil leak. Did you resolve it back then, or could it have been an indication of a bad repair?
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Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how the repair could be the problem. Not ruling it out, just doesn't seem on the surface that it's the repair shops "fault" that the design keeps failing.
 
Walboy said:
Just wondering if the warranty terms (100 hours) were disclosed prior to Airworx starting the repair?
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No, but frankly that wouldn't have stopped me from sending it to him. He had an immediate opening due to a cancellation, and every other shop I had called wouldn't ever look at it for six months. Meanwhile my plane was shoved into an abandoned paint shop on an airport 600 miles from home. He seemed competent, and went to the trouble to become a part 145 repair station, so i felt good about it.
francisco collazos said:
I know this is outside the scope of this question but can someone explain what happened here?
Click to expand...
The shaft that carries the gear that drives the prop governor was originally retained by a spring detent pin. That was a bad design, and lyco issued https://www.lycoming.com/content/service-instruction-no-1343c to replace it with a different shaft and a set screw. My original shaft got loose, wore out the cap that covers the hole, and jumped out, rapidly followed by all my oil. I sent the engine for an IRAN and repair of that shaft. The repair failed and began wearing the cap, which would have eventually failed.

My mechanic got some awesome pictures today that I'll share when I get a second. I'm in the combine still and haven't had much time to work on this or post on poa. Hopefully harvest will finish up Monday and I'll be able to figure some **** out.
 
Salty said:
Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how the repair could be the problem. Not ruling it out, just doesn't seem on the surface that it's the repair shops "fault" that the design keeps failing.
Click to expand...

How many hours did the design work before the first failure?
 
Half Fast said:
How many hours did the design work before the first failure?
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Valid point. But I think the guy's point that without a total overhaul there could be something out of his control that's causing the problem is also valid.
 
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