Egregious FBO charges

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
Hello,

I parked on a ramp overnight, used my own chocks and never entered FBO facilities. The city has given this FBO a monopoly over all ramp space.

After I departed, I was emailed a receipt from the FBO for $385 ($270 "facility fee", and $115 "parking fee" - for a Meridian). It seems they kept my AvFuel info on file from > 1 yr ago when I was last there and just ran it again. I did not authorize any charges.

Usually, I try and beg/borrow hangar space from whoever I know at this airport who will let me crash in their hangar, and that usually works, but this time everyone was full. Realistically, I may need to use their ramp in the future, since it's the only ramp space (all I need is a square of concrete).

Do I just need to suck it up and pay these charges, or is it worth disputing with AvFuel (given that I did not authorize them)? I assume there is no way to realistically "fight the man" on this one, but just checking. What recourse does the FBO have?
 
I think you answered your question.

Depending how often you go there (and if you buy fuel) you may want to speak to the manager for a negotiated rate.
 
I would, at the very least, give them a phone call. Tell them exactly what happened and that you didn't appreciate the unauthorized charges. Probably need to talk to a manager and not just any line person. Once you deliver the feedback, open the door to - so if i need to come back, how will this work - conversation. (I'm assuming you can keep your cool through the feedback bit) The goal isn't to burn bridges.
 
Their retaining your card information and charging it without authorization likely violates PCI DSS and their merchant agreement. I wouldn't hesitate to dispute the charges. If you're willing to pay something, you might give them a call first and try to work it out, but failing that, dispute it and they'll have to show their processor that you somehow agreed to the charges.
 
WDD said:
Where did you land that charges that amount of money?
Click to expand...

The “Most complained about FBO in the country” per an AOPA survey, actually….

www.aopa.org

AOPA files official complaints over FBO fees

With the filing of official complaints to the FAA, AOPA rolled out the next phase of its ongoing effort to tackle egregious fees charged by certain fixed-base operations around the country. The move comes after months of effort identifying the worst offenders and attempting to work with local...
www.aopa.org
 
I support any attempt to make it difficult for FBO's to collect in this manner. Even if you end up paying them, make them work for it. Dispute that payment with your cc issuer.
 
If you frequently go there, I would talk to the manager. I've been fleeced by FBOs in the past. But those were once off visits and I just avoid those places going forward. All the places I frequently go to or plan on going to with any regularity, I always talk to the manager. So far, every single one of them gave me some sort of deal, even at FBOs that have terrible reviews online or are known to be expensive - after talking to the manager, they're not that bad, both service and cost wise.
 
dans2992 said:
The “Most complained about FBO in the country” per an AOPA survey, actually….

www.aopa.org

AOPA files official complaints over FBO fees

With the filing of official complaints to the FAA, AOPA rolled out the next phase of its ongoing effort to tackle egregious fees charged by certain fixed-base operations around the country. The move comes after months of effort identifying the worst offenders and attempting to work with local...
www.aopa.org
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's 7 years ago that they made their pathetic claim to demonstrate their impotence. They knew it wasn't going anywhere, but issued this press release to convince the AOPA membership that they weren't just ****ing the dues away.
 
I was researching this a bit. Airports that take FAA grant assurances are required to ensure that services are available at "reasonable and non-discriminatory" pricing. Now, obviously, "reasonable" is in the eye of the beholder, but "non-discriminatory" - does that mean they can't charge me more than the identical airframe that burns 100LL? Because if you burn Jet A, they basically increase the fees 4x even if your aircraft is the same size as a piston.... because they know "you must have bigger pockets", I guess.

I already fly 15 minutes away to purchase fuel at LITERALLY 50% less than what this FBO sells it for. I suppose my issue is that the city has given them a monopoly on parking (and they use it as a weapon).....
 
dans2992 said:
I was researching this a bit. Airports that take FAA grant assurances are required to ensure that services are available at "reasonable and non-discriminatory" pricing. Now, obviously, "reasonable" is in the eye of the beholder, but "non-discriminatory" - does that mean they can't charge me more than the identical airframe that burns 100LL? Because if you burn Jet A, they basically increase the fees 4x even if your aircraft is the same size as a piston.... because they know "you must have bigger pockets", I guess.

I already fly 15 minutes away to purchase fuel at LITERALLY 50% less than what this FBO sells it for. I suppose my issue is that the city has given them a monopoly on parking (and they use it as a weapon).....
Click to expand...
Yup…your issue isn’t with the FBO (or at least it wasn’t before you tried to skip out on the charges.)
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
If you frequently go there, I would talk to the manager. I've been fleeced by FBOs in the past. But those were once off visits and I just avoid those places going forward. All the places I frequently go to or plan on going to with any regularity, I always talk to the manager. So far, every single one of them gave me some sort of deal, even at FBOs that have terrible reviews online or are known to be expensive - after talking to the manager, they're not that bad, both service and cost wise.
Click to expand...
I might give that a try. Last time, I was offered a flat rate to park on the ramp of... $950/mo. (They wanted $9k for a month in the hangar). From what I hear, the owner steadfastly insists on charging even based tenants $8/gallon of Jet A, when it's available at 50% less within a 15 minute flight. No based aircraft purchases fuel from them from what I have been told.

I can try talking to them, but.... I do not have high hopes.
 
dans2992 said:
I might give that a try. Last time, I was offered a flat rate to park on the ramp of... $950/mo. (They wanted $9k for a month in the hangar). From what I hear, the owner steadfastly insists on charging even based tenants $8/gallon of Jet A, when it's available at 50% less within a 15 minute flight. No based aircraft purchases fuel from them from what I have been told.

I can try talking to them, but.... I do not have high hopes.
Click to expand...

So if an another airport is 15 minutes away, and has cheaper fuel, why are you going to this airport?
 
2 hours driving time saves nearly $195 dollars an hour. Not a bad hourly rate, for most of us.

Plus, you are now at the half price fuel airport.

Win Win, it seems to me.
 
My read, perhaps sarcastic, maybe ignorant, certainly contrary, not sure if correct…

I think you need to sell your plane to go smaller, then the fees will likely be less.

So, your beef is that your unauthorized parked plane was charged unauthorized money?

You did not inquire first, knowing all about aopa article?

If I have a beef, I’m going to try and talk to them first before going public. Heck, I might even walk in the fbo and ask. As it is, you might need their services again and they might know your public complaint and tail number.

If someone steals or shoplifts from a store, and the store has a credit card on file and bills the thief, can one argue for a chargeback?

How much fuel did you knot buy from them?
 
Salty said:
So, he should have parked on the runway I guess.
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There’s always the grassy area next to the taxiway.

I don’t see where it’s the fault of the FBO whose name cannot be spoken that the airport authority chose not to have a transient parking area not leased to the FBO.
 
MauleSkinner said:
There’s always the grassy area next to the taxiway.

I don’t see where it’s the fault of the FBO whose name cannot be spoken that the airport authority chose not to have a transient parking area not leased to the FBO.
Click to expand...
Then who's fault is it?
 
dans2992 said:
Hello,

I parked on a ramp overnight, used my own chocks and never entered FBO facilities. The city has given this FBO a monopoly over all ramp space.

After I departed, I was emailed a receipt from the FBO for $385 ($270 "facility fee", and $115 "parking fee" - for a Meridian). It seems they kept my AvFuel info on file from > 1 yr ago when I was last there and just ran it again. I did not authorize any charges.

Usually, I try and beg/borrow hangar space from whoever I know at this airport who will let me crash in their hangar, and that usually works, but this time everyone was full. Realistically, I may need to use their ramp in the future, since it's the only ramp space (all I need is a square of concrete).

Do I just need to suck it up and pay these charges, or is it worth disputing with AvFuel (given that I did not authorize them)? I assume there is no way to realistically "fight the man" on this one, but just checking. What recourse does the FBO have?
Click to expand...
The “City” didn’t give the ramp to the FBO for free. The FBO rented the ramp and likely paid the city a king’s ransom for it.

I’d call the FBO and advise you are going to object to the charges on your credit card because you never used the FBO facilities.
 
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Salty said:
So, he should have parked on the runway I guess.
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It’s basically marine law. The Air-Port and the ramps (docks). He used a ramp (dock) that wasn’t his and has to pay for its use. If he decided to just sail into the Air-Port and not arrange for ramp use and negotiate a price, whose fault is that? The fact he didn’t have a ramp to use isn’t the FBO’s or the City’s issue.

I don’t think most on this board would just pull up to anyone’s dock and expect to use if for free in a boat, but some expect it in a plane.
 
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Hey, I feel for you. My wife needed to use the bathroom and we popped into GYY which used to be a quaint sleepy little friendly place. Theyr'e still friendly, but that bathroom stop cost her $50.
 
Honestly, I’m quite surprised by some of y’all.

If you park on the ramp of an FBO, even if you don’t use their services, than you should attempt to dispute the charges? Really? I’m disappointed by some of you.

If you park on the ramp of an FBO, they’re entitled to charge you, unless the policy is stated otherwise. That’s how the game works. Attempting to charge back the fees is, frankly, morally dishonest - so is trying to sneak out before or after business hours to avoid getting charged.

Speak to the FBO manager and explain the situation. I don’t disagree that the fees seem high, but c’est la vie. Either pay the piper or don’t use their pavement.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Yup…your issue isn’t with the FBO (or at least it wasn’t before you tried to skip out on the charges.)
Click to expand...

Salty said:
He parked on public property and used no services. I think you’re wrong
Click to expand...

Not sure what difference it makes whether the ramp is public property, private property, public property leased to a private company, or any other permutation of public/private.

Who cares? "Public" doesn't equate to "free", as anyone who has fed a city-operated parking meter in a downtown area can attest. All that's relevant is that there's a price associated with parking there, regardless of who is collecting the money.
 
dans2992 said:
Hello,

I parked on a ramp overnight, used my own chocks and never entered FBO facilities. The city has given this FBO a monopoly over all ramp space.

After I departed, I was emailed a receipt from the FBO for $385 ($270 "facility fee", and $115 "parking fee" - for a Meridian). It seems they kept my AvFuel info on file from > 1 yr ago when I was last there and just ran it again. I did not authorize any charges.
Click to expand...
Have you been to this FBO before and did you know they charge for ramp use beforehand? Although I don't own it, I fly a PC12 and know there will be ramp and/or parking fees at Atlantic, Signature, etc. if I don't buy fuel. Usually 100 gallons. Whether you used their facilities or not, you parked on their ramp and they were available to you. Honestly, $385 is quite reasonable for turbine equipment. Atlantic hit my employer for $600 when I had them put the plane in the hangar for one night during a snow storm. And that was after I had purchased fuel. I think Signature is at $500 for parking with no fuel purchase.
 
dans2992 said:
The “Most complained about FBO in the country” per an AOPA survey, actually….

www.aopa.org

AOPA files official complaints over FBO fees

With the filing of official complaints to the FAA, AOPA rolled out the next phase of its ongoing effort to tackle egregious fees charged by certain fixed-base operations around the country. The move comes after months of effort identifying the worst offenders and attempting to work with local...
www.aopa.org
Click to expand...
Wow, AOPA sent a letter to FAA 7 years ago. Such a great effort on their part. In the last 7 years, they have collected $350M from their membership, and nothing has improved in terms of FBO fees (they have gotten worse).
What a horrible representative organization we get.
 
RyanB said:
Honestly, I’m quite surprised by some of y’all.

If you park on the ramp of an FBO, even if you don’t use their services, than you should attempt to dispute the charges? Really? I’m disappointed by some of you.

If you park on the ramp of an FBO, they’re entitled to charge you, unless the policy is stated otherwise. That’s how the game works. Attempting to charge back the fees is, frankly, morally dishonest - so is trying to sneak out before or after business hours to avoid getting charged.

Speak to the FBO manager and explain the situation. I don’t disagree that the fees seem high, but c’est la vie. Either pay the piper or don’t use their pavement.
Click to expand...
What if they charged him $15,000? Do you still justify that? Where is the limit?
Fees should be transparent. They are not, because they can get away with it.
 
Jim_R said:
Not sure what difference it makes whether the ramp is public property, private property, public property leased to a private company, or any other permutation of public/private.

Who cares? "Public" doesn't equate to "free", as anyone who has fed a city-operated parking meter in a downtown area can attest. All that's relevant is that there's a price associated with parking there, regardless of who is collecting the money.
Click to expand...
No. There are specific laws about parking meters. And there are signs. If you parked on a street devoid of meters, and the city nevertheless charged you $300 for parking, you'd justifiably be incensed. Outraged. Not to mention it'd be illegal.

Did this ramp have signs listing the charges? Meters? Gates? Anything?

At most, without even an implied agreement to pay, the FBO might have a civil claim for the reasonable value of overnight parking. But without any overt indication that this was private property, that might not even stick.
 
flyingron said:
Hey, I feel for you. My wife needed to use the bathroom and we popped into GYY which used to be a quaint sleepy little friendly place. Theyr'e still friendly, but that bathroom stop cost her $50.
Click to expand...

So you didn’t pay for her? :p
 
Lindberg said:
No. There are specific laws about parking meters. And there are signs. If you parked on a street devoid of meters, and the city nevertheless charged you $300 for parking, you'd justifiably be incensed. Outraged. Not to mention it'd be illegal.

Did this ramp have signs listing the charges? Meters? Gates? Anything?

At most, without even an implied agreement to pay, the FBO might have a civil claim for the reasonable value of overnight parking. But without any overt indication that this was private property, that might not even stick.
Click to expand...
Precisely.

Landing fees should be required to be published in the afd as well. Charging a landing fee that you have no way of knowing about until after you land is nothing less than theft. And don’t tell me “call ahead” because I’ve been lied to more than once on that matter, but since they don’t have to put anything in writing you have no recourse.

Name another business that can charge you without informing you were even using their service let alone how much that service costs.

I find it surprising that anyone would defend the cowardly billing of someone a company hadn’t communicated with in any way. At least call them up personally and discuss the situation. This is a simple case of discrimination. He’s “rich” so he won’t even notice. Bill him.
 
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