Talk Me Out of a Cirrus

I have time in a G3 SR22TN. They’re as fun as you can get with the “power lever” and a side stick. I don’t really see a huge capability difference post-G3. Get a G3 and use the savings for chute repacks and turbo rebuilds.

Or move up here and buy 1/2 an MU2 or Cessna 501 :happydance:
 
kaiser said:
I have time in a G3 SR22TN. They’re as fun as you can get with the “power lever” and a side stick. I don’t really see a huge capability difference post-G3. Get a G3 and use the savings for chute repacks and turbo rebuilds.

Or move up here and buy 1/2 an MU2 or Cessna 501 :happydance:
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200 extra pounds and a little slower for the 5 and 6, except for the later 6s which are faster. Oh and 150 kias 1/2 flap speed .
 
Keep the existing airplane, don't get the Cirrus, instead get a second wife. Don't tell the first one. All the excitement, expense, and terror of FIKI, your friends will be amazed, and probably similar likelihood of a non-survivable outcome in the end.

I kid!!
 
I like the comments about how Cirrus has no feel. I guess the only nerve endings those pilots have are in their hands. Because they never sense any other feedback from the plane outside of the yoke. I have hand flown an SR20 and SR22 a lot. The reality is, Cirrus is a travel plane. It is designed to get you there in maximum comfort. Skip the chute factor, it is one of the most comfortable planes for pilots and passengers in the price points it operates. Never forget, the first and last impression of a plane is entry/exit. And Cirrus is a lot better than most competitors there. Then once in, you have actual shoulder room, and there is nothing wacking the passenger or blocking them. The side yoke is out of the way.

In terms of the side yoke, it frees up incredible space in front of the pilot. Making it much easier to actually see the panels in front of you, more comfortable, better able to write ATC instructions on a kneepad... The list goes on.
For FIKI you want a G3 or latter model. It would be rare, but for your mission I would suggest a FIKI non-turbo model. You are likely not often into the O2 levels, and removing the turbo and built in O2 options will save hundred or more pounds of UL.

Check with Lifeline if they have other members using Cirrus; and see if this impacts your selection.

Not sure where the 25K chute repack number is from. But that is higher than most of the posts I have seen on COPA.

If actually serious about a Cirrus, spend the few bucks and join COPA.

Tim
 
tspear said:
I like the comments about how Cirrus has no feel. I guess the only nerve endings those pilots have are in their hands. Because they never sense any other feedback from the plane outside of the yoke. I have hand flown an SR20 and SR22 a lot. The reality is, Cirrus is a travel plane. It is designed to get you there in maximum comfort. Skip the chute factor, it is one of the most comfortable planes for pilots and passengers in the price points it operates. Never forget, the first and last impression of a plane is entry/exit. And Cirrus is a lot better than most competitors there. Then once in, you have actual shoulder room, and there is nothing wacking the passenger or blocking them. The side yoke is out of the way.

In terms of the side yoke, it frees up incredible space in front of the pilot. Making it much easier to actually see the panels in front of you, more comfortable, better able to write ATC instructions on a kneepad... The list goes on.
For FIKI you want a G3 or latter model. It would be rare, but for your mission I would suggest a FIKI non-turbo model. You are likely not often into the O2 levels, and removing the turbo and built in O2 options will save hundred or more pounds of UL.

Check with Lifeline if they have other members using Cirrus; and see if this impacts your selection.

Not sure where the 25K chute repack number is from. But that is higher than most of the posts I have seen on COPA.

If actually serious about a Cirrus, spend the few bucks and join COPA.

Tim
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Agree to disagree. If you only want to travel take delta. Otherwise the feel matters.
 
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tspear said:
I like the comments about how Cirrus has no feel. I guess the only nerve endings those pilots have are in their hands. Because they never sense any other feedback from the plane outside of the yoke. I have hand flown an SR20 and SR22 a lot. The reality is, Cirrus is a travel plane. It is designed to get you there in maximum comfort. Skip the chute factor, it is one of the most comfortable planes for pilots and passengers in the price points it operates. Never forget, the first and last impression of a plane is entry/exit. And Cirrus is a lot better than most competitors there. Then once in, you have actual shoulder room, and there is nothing wacking the passenger or blocking them. The side yoke is out of the way.

In terms of the side yoke, it frees up incredible space in front of the pilot. Making it much easier to actually see the panels in front of you, more comfortable, better able to write ATC instructions on a kneepad... The list goes on.
For FIKI you want a G3 or latter model. It would be rare, but for your mission I would suggest a FIKI non-turbo model. You are likely not often into the O2 levels, and removing the turbo and built in O2 options will save hundred or more pounds of UL.

Check with Lifeline if they have other members using Cirrus; and see if this impacts your selection.

Not sure where the 25K chute repack number is from. But that is higher than most of the posts I have seen on COPA.

If actually serious about a Cirrus, spend the few bucks and join COPA.

Tim
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Good advice. I have an Ovation3 with no factory O2. I often fly 13-18k and have a very useful portable Aerox M bottle. When I don't need it, I can save the weight of the factory O2. I live in Vegas and fly X-C alot. I haven't yet said "I wish I had a turbo". The O3 does great hot and high for TO and performs really well up to about 16k-17k. Above that it definitely feels the altitude. I have TKS inadvertent which I have had to use on occasion. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I have an old service injury on my left side that makes the Cirrus side stick very uncomfortable after a while. Cirrus are solid planes.
 
Salty said:
Agree to disagree. If you only want to travel take delta. Otherwise the feel matters.
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I learned in Cessnas. I like the "feel" of the Cessnas. Others say they are like an SUV. I guess I must like SUVs too. When I first started flying the Cirrus I didn't like the side stick. After flying a few hundred hours I appreciate it and prefer it to other planes I've flown (Stinson, Decathalon, Cessnas and 201 mooney).

Oddly (or not) I've taken non-Pilots up and let them take the controls. In my experience, people that haven't flown before do better with the Cirrus side-stick than the Cessna yoke. They are able to hold course and altitude much better.

Everybody likes what they like. There's not a lot of movement in the side stick like there is with yokes and center sticks. It take a bit more finesse. The stick doesn't move as much as a yoke and it take a bit more precision and control than the old fashion controls.
 
Flew one once for a few minutes. It didn't feel like flying. Maybe it was the disconnect with the controls or the SUV interior. After a few minutes I just wanted to get out of it. Can't explain it, I love flying. I think I felt less safe in this weird-to-me vehicle.

Maybe flying older aircraft left me with no way to connect with this thing.

It was a strange sensation that I just wanted out of it as soon as possible.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
…I wish I could go faster and have some ice protection….
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I want to circle back here. Ice in a piston single isn’t something I want to deal with. FIKI is there for an emergency, not a planning factor.

If that’s your mentality, good. If it’s FIKI for dispatchability, that’s turbineland in my book.
 
Lndwarrior said:
Flew one once for a few minutes. It didn't feel like flying. Maybe it was the disconnect with the controls or the SUV interior. After a few minutes I just wanted to get out of it. Can't explain it, I love flying. I think I felt less safe in this weird-to-me vehicle.

Maybe flying older aircraft left me with no way to connect with this thing.

It was a strange sensation that I just wanted out of it as soon as possible.
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I’ve flown lots of different aircraft. Lots of them flew differently. I enjoyed them all.

Absolutely get out of an airplane you aren’t capable or comfortable flying.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
I've been dabbling in changing planes over the past 8 months. That's what happens after you drop tons of money into avionics. You waste it and go to another plane, right? Currently I fly a PA32R (Piper Lance) and I do so because of how much it carries. However, as I've switched companies and can now fly myself for work, I wish I could go faster and have some ice protection. My biggest limitations are hangar width and opex. I'd love to have an Aerostar but I'd be bankrupt in 5 years and don't have a hangar big enough to store it. I'd love to have a PA46 (Malibu....not Meridian) but the hangar issue comes into play again. They don't make them that wide here. I looked at Senecas but everything on the market is junk and I'm not convinced I want to be in a twin.

So now I'm looking at SR22T G5s. The problem is I don't want to give up the useful load. I could go without the T but flying up higher gives better speed. Those usually come with AC and that helps kill the useful. I'm seeing mostly 1100 pounds. My current plane gets 1430.

I get torn between my mission. 60%-70% of the time I don't need 1430. But sometimes I do need it for LifeLine Pilots flights and they specifically call me when they have a heavy one that is harder to fill. But on the flip side, I mostly fly solo. Having the AC would be nice too. As I get older, I hate sweating when flying more and more.

I've actually never flown in a Cirrus (well...not a piston. got to fly in the jet twice) so I need to do that. Really this post is just me rambling on. You're welcome to reason me one way or the other. Heck I was looking at a $900k TBM 700 the other day. I've hit full on midlife crisis really. :cool:
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Define your mission *including* budget. Sounds like lots of... 600nm? ... solo flights, some compassion flights, very cross country.
NealRomeoGolf said:
Won't I be 40 knots faster up in the teens? At my typical 4 hour flight that's almost an hour saved, no? Maybe I can't math properly today.
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Meh... You want real speed in a turbo, use the dang turbo and go to FL250. Just be aware that you may trade 5000 feet and a 120kt groundspeed with a 30 knot headwind for 25,000 feet and a 120kt groundspeed with a 100 knot headwind. You'll sure look cool while you're not going any faster though. :D

But, while I won't talk you out of an airplane, I will talk you out of a turbo, at least if there's an equivalent plane without a turbo (ie, don't not buy the Seneca because of what I'm going to say here).

1) Turbos are only useful on longer legs. In my Mooney, it takes 8nm per 1000 feet for the climb and descent. Rule of thumb, you want at least half your flight to be in cruise to make the slow speed and high fuel burn of the climb worthwhile, so 16nm per 1000 feet is about where your max cruise altitude should be on any given leg. Below 10,000 my airplane is faster than its turbocharged equivalent, so on a 160nm leg we'll tie in performance and the turbo will just cost a lot of money (50% higher fuel burn, plus of course maintenance, lower engine longevity and higher overhaul costs). So really, if you want to get some significant advantages out of the turbo, you want to be flying in the low 20s, which means a minimum leg distance of 320nm. Less than that, they're kind of a waste.
2) Breathing oxygen sucks. It's completely dry, 0% humidity, and will turn your sinuses into the Sahara desert, except lit on fire, within a half hour. And pax aren't going to like it any better, so you'll end up at lower altitudes and once again your turbo is a waste. The only exception to this is to be pressurized so you don't have to wear O2. In a piston single, that means Malibu or P210.

While I'm here, let me talk you out of A/C. It's nice during taxi, and it's nice for the time that you're below 5,000 feet. By the time you hit 5,000 feet you should be in cooler, drier air, no matter where you are in the country. Reminds me of when I was in Texas in July in a normally aspirated 182, turning the heat on because the OAT at 12,500 was 0ºC. A/C is extra weight, money, and lots of other bad things. If you're in a hot place, get a swamp cooler if you have to, so that you can easily ditch it the rest of the time.

For your mission, that P210 makes a lot of sense if you're always flying long legs. Or the Malibu, if you can find a hangar big enough. A36 Bonanza if you want to go faster and stay normally aspirated but keep the pax-friendly big door. Older TBM is gonna be $$$ to fly but will outrun all of the above and still give you that big back door (and maybe only that back door). You can buy King Airs for that $600K but they'll probably eat you alive.

Otherwise, just be glad you already have such a great airplane! Or pair up with @Jim K and get that Seneca. You can each buy one engine. :rofl:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
For your mission, that P210 makes a lot of sense if you're always flying long legs.
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Ages ago I had a fair amount of time in a student’s P210. At the time it was a virtually new aircraft and was almost magical in its ability to cruise in comfort in the flight levels. I think this was taken while I was preflighting it in Lock Haven.

15157300128_2679cc87ac_o.jpg


That said, don’t they have a reputation for being maintenance hogs? I think Richard Collins got so disillusioned with his in the end that he scrapped his. It’ll see if I can find that article.

Edited to add: https://airfactsjournal.com/2014/09/logbooks-long-wonderful-flight-beginning-turbulence/

Edited again to add: one of my Google search results!

53953620246_d8c63a68da_z.jpg
 
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flyingcheesehead said:
Define your mission *including* budget. Sounds like lots of... 600nm? ... solo flights, some compassion flights, very cross country.
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I am a lot of cross country. As an example, here are the tach time entries per leg from my last bit of flying:

4.3 - solo
2.1 - solo
3.3 - 4 people
2.8 - 4 people
1.7 - solo
1.2 - 2 people
4.2 - solo
4.3 - solo

All of those 4's are more than 600nm.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Breathing oxygen sucks. It's completely dry, 0% humidity, and will turn your sinuses into the Sahara desert, except lit on fire, within a half hour.
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So I've never done oxygen. But if I made the Doc Bruce DIY system, couldn't I put a humidifier inline with it to help? Has anyone tried that? They sell humidifier bottles for concentrated O2 medical setups. Surely this could help.
 
I’d have to find the plane that was easiest to pee in a bottle multiple times with 4+ hour legs…
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
So I've never done oxygen. But if I made the Doc Bruce DIY system, couldn't I put a humidifier inline with it to help? Has anyone tried that? They sell humidifier bottles for concentrated O2 medical setups. Surely this could help.
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I've only had occasion to use it once. My system is just a medical tank & regulator with oxymizer cannulas. I used it for about 2 hours and didn't find it uncomfortable at all other than having tubes running across my face & behind my ears, but I think you'd get used to that. I don't see why a humidifier wouldn't work though other than the hassle of filling it and not spilling it.
 
I think the oxygen-dries-you-out experience varies from person to person. I get plenty of nosebleeds in dry weather, but haven’t had any issues when using a cannula. Granted, I haven’t used oxygen in flight for more than an hour or two at a time. But I’m not as concerned about those issues as I was before I gave it a try. I think that, if I used oxygen all the time due to flying unpressurized in the flight levels, I’d mostly find it a hassle dealing with people at FBOs to get the thing filled. I’m kind of antisocial, I guess. For my limited usage, I have a large welding bottle that I fill from and so far haven’t had to refill that.
 
I’ve used O2, home made setup, no major issues with dryness, but again, no legs longer than 2.5’ish hours.
 
In the next Midwest POA meet I can bring one and we can take a lap on the pattern lol ... you'll probably love it
 
I use a portable O2 system with cannulas all the time. I turn it on anytime I’m flying above 8k. It was a game changer for me and my wife! I can fly at 8-14k for 4+ hours and feel perfectly fine. Without oxygen, I always had a headache and felt fatigued after a few hours above ~ 8k. I’ve never had any issue with dryness.
 
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TCABM said:
I want to circle back here. Ice in a piston single isn’t something I want to deal with. FIKI is there for an emergency, not a planning factor.

If that’s your mentality, good. If it’s FIKI for dispatchability, that’s turbineland in my book.
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I disagree. It is all about knowing your options and what the plane is capable of. A FIKI Cirrus in New England will have a much higher dispatch rate and require less schedule adjustments than a non-FIKI plane.
On the flip side, I have not flown schedule constrained in a very ling time. So, personally since I almost never fly without my spouse and she does not like IMC, I would only use the FIKI aspect if I screwed up.

Tim
 
AlphaMike said:
I use a portable O2 system with cannulas all the time. I turn it on anytime I’m flying above 8k. It was a game changer for me and my wife! I can fly at 8-14k for 4+ hours and feel perfectly fine. Without oxygen, I always had a headache and felt fatigued after a few hours above ~ 8k. I’ve never had any issue with dryness.
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This.

And as far a humidity, I've been using 02 for several years now when XC above 8k, and neither me or my wife has had any problems with dry air / being too dry. As a matter of fact, I hadn't even thought about it being dry.

I would think that if you were on 02 for many hours each day at home (such as a COPD patient), you might notice. Maybe because my XC is only 2-3 hours it just isn't enough time to have the dryness be a problem. I wouldn't add any complexity such as a humidifier. As a matter of fact, some of the criticisms of "non aviation 02" is that is might not be dry. (From what I can figure out, all 02 today is from the same source, so medical, welding supply, aviation source the exact same 02, exact same moisture content, etc.)
 
tspear said:
I disagree. It is all about knowing your options and what the plane is capable of. A FIKI Cirrus in New England will have a much higher dispatch rate and require less schedule adjustments than a non-FIKI plane.
On the flip side, I have not flown schedule constrained in a very ling time. So, personally since I almost never fly without my spouse and she does not like IMC, I would only use the FIKI aspect if I screwed up.

Tim
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My training / reading tells me that FIKI is to get out of trouble, get out of icing, get through it as fast as possible if you find yourself in it. It's not for purposely and for an extended period of time flying in icing conditions.


Back to original post. Just train in and rent a Cirrus for 30 or so hours. Maybe rent some other contenders. Only then will you have a good idea if a Cirrus is a good fit. Or anything else might be a good fit.
 
WDD said:
My training / reading tells me that FIKI is to get out of trouble, get out of icing, get through it as fast as possible if you find yourself in it. It's not for purposely and for an extended period of time flying in icing conditions.
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I have purposely been flown in icing conditions in a Cirrus SR22, same in an Aerostar. The SR22, was light ice, handled it just fine for an hour plus the charter pilot flew through it (ferry flight, they were picking up their Cirrus and I was dropping mine off).
The Aerostar flew just fine for a couple hours of light to moderate icing.

It is fine to use the lower limit of the pilots or the planes capabilities. However, I disagree with the blanket statements about icing conditions.

Tim
 
WDD said:
My training / reading tells me that FIKI is to get out of trouble, get out of icing, get through it as fast as possible if you find yourself in it...
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Depending on the specific airframe, Cirrus offers either an inadvertent icing or full FIKI package with up to 2+hrs of fluid.

My particular distaste for ice in a piston single is risk stacking. There’s a weight penalty, weather penalty, systems complexity, and some other factors thrown in that keep me from considering a FIKI single. That’s my choice.
 
AlphaMike said:
I use a portable O2 system with cannulas all the time. I turn it on anytime I’m flying above 8k. It was a game changer for me and my wife! I can fly at 8-14k for 4+ hours and feel perfectly fine. Without oxygen, I always had a headache and felt fatigued after a few hours above ~ 8k. I’ve never had any issue with dryness.
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Just curious, but a demand system or steady flow? I don't fly anything all that high, but in the 8-10 range it does sound like a good idea. (And sorry for tangent)
 
FWIW - I use a pulse cannula. Makes your O2 bottle last.
 
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