Lance air down short of 36 OSH

skyking3286

skyking3286

Pre-takeoff checklist
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After a delay of several minutes, the cams are back up but locked to northern views.
Photo of black smoke on the approach end of 36.
A posted flight track shows possible slow flight maneuvering on final by a high performance single.
Aircraft going to alternatives for fuel.
Tragic day for a family.

Update: Out of the hold at 1pm CDT. Will be running into the airshow shut down.

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B25 reported they saw a plane down. Airport closed.
 

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Word on the street is for fatalities.
I have no real information It's just the rumor here at a picnic table
 
Crews responded to the call around 12:50 p.m. Monday, to a farm field in the area of Nekimi Avenue and Old Knapp Road, in the town of Nekimi.
The area is about two miles south of EAA AirVenture.

Two fatals.

Followed a L39 on approach. Last ADS-B on one source has 59 knots, but the last data is always unreliable.
 
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pilotsofamerica.com

Monday OSH cams offline and FISK is in lenghty time hold. Incident at airport

After a delay of several minutes, the cams are back up but locked to northern views. Photo of black smoke on the approach end of 36. A posted flight track shows possible slow flight maneuvering on final by a high performance single. Aircraft going to alternatives for fuel. Tragic day for a...
pilotsofamerica.com pilotsofamerica.com
 
Sad condolences and RIP
 
Well, not that it bears repeating, but a Lancair is an aircraft known for biting hard if you let it get slow. Sad news.
 
That sucks...
Not a good way to start OSH '24 after '23 ended the way it did.

It will be interesting to find out how long the accident pilot had owned the aircraft.
I wonder if the passenger was a pilot.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Well, not that it bears repeating, but a Lancair is an aircraft known for biting hard if you let it get slow. Sad news.
Click to expand...
Yes, yet some pilots seem to think all aircraft other than a jet should fly the pattern behind them at whatever slow speed they repeatedly lap the airport.

There's been the suggestion on the lancair forum that all lancairs should do the warbird arrival due to concerns over getting too slow.

While I would enjoy Oshkosh, I can't see flying into a place with that much traffic.
 
AV8R_87 said:
It will be interesting to find out how long the accident pilot had owned the aircraft.
I wonder if the passenger was a pilot.
Click to expand...
If N18BG is the registration, as reported....

The current listed owner is listed at least through 1 January 2022 as the owner. The "Certificate Date" for the owner was in January 2021, which is, I suspect, when he took ownership. So the current owner had it for at least three years...but, of course, we do not know yet whether he was at the controls or in the aircraft.

The aircraft itself looks to be at nearly 25 years old (I found it in the 2001 listing). A casual search seems to indicate that the current owner is about a third or 4th owner of the plane. Again, he's owned it for at least three years.

Ron Wanttaja
 
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AV8R_87 said:
That sucks...
Not a good way to start OSH '24 after '23 ended the way it did.

It will be interesting to find out how long the accident pilot had owned the aircraft.
I wonder if the passenger was a pilot.
Click to expand...

I believe I saw where he had run himself out of fuel in an incident once before on Kathryn's Report.

FORANE said:
Yes, yet some pilots seem to think all aircraft other than a jet should fly the pattern behind them at whatever slow speed they repeatedly lap the airport.

There's been the suggestion on the lancair forum that all lancairs should do the warbird arrival due to concerns over getting too slow.

While I would enjoy Oshkosh, I can't see flying into a place with that much traffic.
Click to expand...

The Lancair ES isn't reportedly as bad as something like the IV/IV-P, but it's still slippery like a Cirrus so I'm sure it requires you to be on top of the speeds pretty closely.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I believe I saw where he had run himself out of fuel in an incident once before on Kathryn's Report.



The Lancair ES isn't reportedly as bad as something like the IV/IV-P, but it's still slippery like a Cirrus so I'm sure it requires you to be on top of the speeds pretty closely.
Click to expand...
I watched an accident unfolding like this one at Sun and Fun couple decades ago as the plane stalled and incipient spin was beginning low to the ground. The pilot pulled one out of ass that day.
 
FORANE said:
Yes, yet some pilots seem to think all aircraft other than a jet should fly the pattern behind them at whatever slow speed they repeatedly lap the airport.

There's been the suggestion on the lancair forum that all lancairs should do the warbird arrival due to concerns over getting too slow.

While I would enjoy Oshkosh, I can't see flying into a place with that much traffic.
Click to expand...
It will be interesting to see if this plane was following a much slower plane. The Fisk arrival, when I did it, there were quite a few airplanes that did not, or could not maintain 90 knots. I think that needs to be addressed, preferably with a different route for slow aircraft.
 
PaulS said:
It will be interesting to see if this plane was following a much slower plane. The Fisk arrival, when I did it, there were quite a few airplanes that did not, or could not maintain 90 knots. I think that needs to be addressed, preferably with a different route for slow aircraft.
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I believe he was told to extend his pattern a bit to accommodate an L39 he was behind. I doubt that was too slow for him, but I'm sure it added another level of complexity that could have resulted in overshooting base-to-final and ended up getting slow in a banked turn.
 
PaulS said:
It will be interesting to see if this plane was following a much slower plane. The Fisk arrival, when I did it, there were quite a few airplanes that did not, or could not maintain 90 knots. I think that needs to be addressed, preferably with a different route for slow aircraft.
Click to expand...

I think there’s more than a few planes out there with mph markings and 90mph is about 80kts. Primacy and all that, if the only thing they remember is 90, that’s how you get folks going slower than expected.
 
www.avweb.com

Fatal Crash Mars AirVenture Opening Day - AVweb

Two people have died after a Lancair Super ES aircraft crashed two miles south of Wittman Regional Airport during opening day of EAA AirVenture, Monday, July 22. According to the Winnebago County Sheriff’s Office the crash occurred shortly after noon and was first reported by Wittman Regional...
www.avweb.com www.avweb.com
 
Pulled some of his previous ads-b logs - he seemed to fly the plane on a regular basis and at similar approach speeds.

I wonder what was that different this time to potentially cause a stall.
Was he directed to make a very tight base to final turn? His track seems to show him turning the other way at first.

Any liveATC recordings available?
 
Thanks. Someone on reddit was speculating that wake turbulence from the jets might have been a factor.
 
It may be relevant here, the slower the aircraft in front of you flies, the more severe the wake turbulence.

If they were flying just to the right of the traffic ahead, and turned left to widen their track for spacing, as requested by tower, they may have entered the disturbed air.

I was following a Cessna 182, which in turn was following a J 3 Cub. 182 had flaps 20, and I was similarly configured, and 50 knots. I drifted a bit lower, hit very turbulent air, nose dropped, and I was out of it. If that had been asymmetrical, and only one wing dropped, recovery would have been quite different.

The Lance may have flown into the turbulence from the side, losing lift on the left wing only, and pitched down to the left. Depending on the pilots response to that event could make or break the recovery.
 
FORANE said:
Yes, yet some pilots seem to think all aircraft other than a jet should fly the pattern behind them at whatever slow speed they repeatedly lap the airport.

There's been the suggestion on the lancair forum that all lancairs should do the warbird arrival due to concerns over getting too slow.

While I would enjoy Oshkosh, I can't see flying into a place with that much traffic.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I have never been to OSH... and I would like to... but I hate the heat... and I would not want to fly in. Every video I watch (and really enjoy!) of the arrival just makes me stressed out. I live and fly in one of, if not the most congested airspace in Canada... and that is enough for me.
 
If wake turbulence ends up being the cause, it would be the second time in recent history where OSH tower has really messed things up, after the incident a few years ago where they put a guy in a Bonanza (I think) too close behind the slow and dirty Ford Trimotor. That pilot narrowly escaped with a bent main gear and a dirty pair of shorts.

It should trigger an in-depth investigation into the arrival procedures at OSH to ensure wake turbulence is better accounted for as they sequence arrivals.
 
TipTanks said:
Yeah, I have never been to OSH... and I would like to... but I hate the heat... and I would not want to fly in. Every video I watch (and really enjoy!) of the arrival just makes me stressed out. I live and fly in one of, if not the most congested airspace in Canada... and that is enough for me.
Click to expand...
I have gone to Osh at least a dozen times but have only flown in once. I highly recommend driving there instead and camping if possible. You can pack up the car with all sorts of stuff to make your stay comfortable (chairs, coolers, fans, cots, etc). It's usually only hot during mid day. The mornings are comfortable and the evenings can get cool enough you may need a sweatshirt or blanket while watching a movie at the fly in theater or listening to a speaker.

If tent camping isn't your thing there are many companies that will setup and rent you anything from a small popup camper to a full on RV with AC and a bathroom. Camping at Osh isn't like most other places. They have great facilities with showers, toilets, a grocery store, etc. With a car you can also get to many places around the show for breakfast or dinner or go just a little north to Appleton to get away from the show for a bit.

Outside the show you can also rent a dorm room with or without AC for the week. Many locals also rent out their houses for the week and it's not uncommon to find a number of other pilots willing to split the cost in exchange for a room. Don't let not wanting to fly in keep you from experiencing all the great things that go on at the show. It's a blast no matter how you get there.
 
The Glasair was following 2 L 39 jets, that were doing several,(2-3) low overhead passes that had been requested and approved by the controller, down 36L, did the Lancair catch the jet wake turbulence.? or widen out for the jets and got slow?

Why do the controllers allow multiple jet passes when you have a ton of other aircraft all trying to land, these low passes are nothing more than the rich boys that own these jets showing off, they should not be allowed at all, were they a factor maybe.

Years ago there was another Lancair that crashed at the approach end of 27, wind was from the North and controllers were telling everyone to keep the base to final in close so they would not get too close to RWY 18, the pilot was low and made a tight turn at a low altitude to final, stalled and spun in, I watched the whole thing happen

Terrible not matter what, be safe out there at OSH
 
strangebird said:
Why do the controllers allow multiple jet passes when you have a ton of other aircraft all trying to land, these low passes are nothing more than the rich boys that own these jets showing off, they should not be allowed at all, were they a factor maybe.
Click to expand...
I'd think maybe you might want to walk back "not allowing" aircraft to make passes for photo ops and general viewing at an event which is specifically for those types of activities. Everything is relative, so most of the people attending Oshkosh could be considered "rich boys"; I'd be careful which direction you cast that stone in the glass house.
 
StraightnLevel said:
I find this interesting. I'm still a student pilot, but traffic is one of my least concerns. ….
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Airventure is a different ball of wax; the NOTAM is 32 pages long with nine pages devoted to VFR arrivals alone with waivered arrival and departure separation, near-simultaneous landings on parallel runways, NORDO vintage aircraft arrivals, and a generally one-way comms without N-number, but instead “White high wing rock your wings” to acknowledge an instruction.

Sure, there’s slow periods, but when it’s busy, there’s more traffic more closely spaced than you’ve experienced the HOU area.

Tens of thousands do it each year successfully, but it’s not a low stress arrival.
 
Speaking of relative, A lancair ES owner is also a rich boy from where I sit.
Eta: looks like post 32 already beat me to it.

BL, people die in/to/from OSH all the time. It looks like the concensus among the fan bois is that's an OK opportunity cost to the carnie keepin' on. I'm personally indifferent to the carnage in so far as it's not unique to the recreational space (sturgis bike rally et al). As someone who places a premium on my ability to legally fly solo, I'd be a hypocrite if I advocated for restrictions to peoples ability to kill themselves in the pursuit of recreation.

My reasons for not caring for that carnie got nothing to do with these arguments over public safety.
 
When you have more than one instance of sequencing an aircraft into the wake turbulence of another, something needs to be tweaked in the arrival process.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I'd think maybe you might want to walk back "not allowing" aircraft to make passes for photo ops and general viewing at an event which is specifically for those types of activities. Everything is relative, so most of the people attending Oshkosh could be considered "rich boys"; I'd be careful which direction you cast that stone in the glass house.
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I would not think it unreasonable to delay such photo ops until day 2, when 10,000 airplanes aren’t trying to land. Utterly absurd that they allow that.
 
mryan75 said:
I would not think it unreasonable to delay such photo ops until day 2, when 10,000 airplanes aren’t trying to land. Utterly absurd that they allow that.
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I don't think we have all of the facts, so it's a bit difficult to cast stones just yet. There may have been plenty of spacing to handle things just as it was being handled. If the Lancair was handling their business this would all be a moot point. I'm sure the accident chain will sort out most of what occurred and if the L39 arrival had anything material to do with it.
 
I've never flown an ES. In mine I was taught to never be under 100 mph except during takeoff and on short final.
Whatever speed I read on the report earlier in this thread sounds awfully slow.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I don't think we have all of the facts, so it's a bit difficult to cast stones just yet. There may have been plenty of spacing to handle things just as it was being handled. If the Lancair was handling their business this would all be a moot point. I'm sure the accident chain will sort out most of what occurred and if the L39 arrival had anything material to do with it.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Handle your business. Everything else is secondary.
 
The year I went, was widely discussed on the Lancair forums to use the Warbird arrival.
(may have changed)
Made good sense, traffic was sparse.
 
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