Runup area to runway priority?

[elvisAteMySandwich]

Newly minted instrument pilot here trying to understand ATC's expectations. I'm in the runup area today. As I'm awaiting IFR release - which took a while today, VFR traffic does their runup and taxis to hold/short line for departure. Well, tower gives me my release and tells me to line up behind a Cessna that's about to depart. As I start to taxi from the runup area, I notice a cherokee that wasn't paying attention start moving forward to be behind the Cessna. I wasn't sure what kind of window I had for my IFR release so I keyed up the mike to let the tower and cherokee know. As soon as I said something, the cherokee realized and stopped, allowing me to proceed behind the cessna and do an immediate takeoff.

But if I hadn't said anything, what would have happened? If I ended up lined up behind the cherokee, could I have lost my release time window and would tower have had to get me a new one? What should I do if/when this kind of thing happens in the future?

 

[TCABM]

You were given a release time at a towered airport?

 

[elvisAteMySandwich]

You were given a release time at a towered airport?

No, no release time. Just an instruction to follow the cessna.

I guess I called it a release window assuming they have the computer figuring out when I could go based on other traffic. On the ground, tower had told me that it was going to be 10-15 mins before I'd get my release.

 

[TCABM]

No, no release time. Just an instruction to follow the cessna.

I guess I called it a release window assuming they have the computer figuring out when I could go based on other traffic. On the ground, tower had told me that it was going to be 10-15 mins before I'd get my release.

Make no assumptions; unless given a departure restriction, release time, or void time, you don’t have one.

 

[midlifeflyer]

No, no release time. Just an instruction to follow the cessna.

I guess I called it a release window assuming they have the computer figuring out when I could go based on other traffic. On the ground, tower had told me that it was going to be 10-15 mins before I'd get my release.

There may well have been a release window but it works differently at a towered airport. And while they may have told you you need to wait for a release, unlike nontowered, you would not know when it ends. Or even if it ends.

An IFR release window isn’t really a computer thing. It’s ATC fitting you into existing traffic real time. From a towered airport, you and ATC are in constant communication real time. You and Tower, with Tower and TRACON coordinating. At a nontowered airport your “released…void if not off by…” is because you are not in constant communication. The result nontowered is that even if there is no other IFR traffic for 500 miles, you are still going to hear a window.

 

[elvisAteMySandwich]

Okay, no assumptions. It's really out of my hands and up to ATC to let me know. So I guess another option would have been to line up behind the cherokee and let tower know I was number 3 in line.

Would be nice if everyone just waited in the runup area and then tower sequenced us to the runway for takeoff similar to how they do for landings. Cessna you're number 1 for takeoff, cherokee you'll be number 2 following cessna, IFR bugsmasher you'll be number 3, ...

 

[Llewtrah381]

runup area and then tower sequenced us to the runway for takeoff similar to how they do for landings. Cessna you're number 1 for takeoff, cherokee you'll be number 2 following cessna

Except there are some people, especially students on dual flights (understandably) who can take a loooong time to do a runup. Even in your case, if you had a complex clearance and it needed to be read back a few times to sort out errors, it could take you a while.

 

[Velocity173]

Okay, no assumptions. It's really out of my hands and up to ATC to let me know. So I guess another option would have been to line up behind the cherokee and let tower know I was number 3 in line.

Would be nice if everyone just waited in the runup area and then tower sequenced us to the runway for takeoff similar to how they do for landings. Cessna you're number 1 for takeoff, cherokee you'll be number 2 following cessna, IFR bugsmasher you'll be number 3, ...

Like @midlifeflyer said, it’s not a computer giving you a release time. There are situations for airliners where the traffic management unit will issue slots but’s that’s based on heavy traffic at major airports. Your release is nothing more than the approach controller making a gap to fit you in with their other IFRs. That could be a verbal approval or at some facilities (C & B) tower can have automatic release authority. If you didn’t make your first release because of the Cherokee, it’s nothing more than waiting for another gap. That could be seconds or several minutes.

 

[asicer]

Would be nice if everyone just waited in the runup area and then tower sequenced us to the runway for takeoff similar to how they do for landings. Cessna you're number 1 for takeoff, cherokee you'll be number 2 following cessna, IFR bugsmasher you'll be number 3, ...

Some airports the taxi instruction includes "advise when run up complete", meaning everyone will get sequenced to the hold short line at that time just as you say.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Would be nice if everyone just waited in the runup area and then tower sequenced us to the runway for takeoff similar to how they do for landings. Cessna you're number 1 for takeoff, cherokee you'll be number 2 following cessna, IFR bugsmasher you'll be number 3, ...

There are airports where that is done, but they are few. It's for ATC's operational needs, not ours. Then there are airports with large runup and non-movement areas adjacent to the runway where you contact ATC (sometimes Ground) when runup is complete. This is the runup and non-movement area at the end of Runway 17L at KAPA in Denver. You can see airplane on the ramp for scale. In this one, ATIS instructs pilots to contact Ground when runup is complete. They tell you what to do at that point.

 

[Lndwarrior]

A bit of a high jack here, but related...

I guess I missed something in my training, but I've never left a runup area at a towered airport without first contacting the tower with the "ready to go" speech. Yet I've seen a number of posts where it appears quite normal to proceed to the hold short line from the runup area without talking to anyone. This just seems to be strange considering there are "movement areas" and the general guidance is to have clearance from tower or ground prior to moving in all movement areas.

Is this mention somewhere in the regs?

 

[Salty]

A bit of a high jack here, but related...

I guess I missed something in my training, but I've never left a runup area at a towered airport without first contacting the tower with the "ready to go" speech. Yet I've seen a number of posts where it appears quite normal to proceed to the hold short line from the runup area without talking to anyone. This just seems to be strange considering there are "movement areas" and the general guidance is to have clearance from tower or ground prior to moving in all movement areas.

Is this mention somewhere in the regs?

I’d talk to ground before leaving the run up area, but I wouldn’t talk to tower until I was at the runway ready to go.

Actually, if ground gave me clearance to the runway, I would be on ground freq, but wouldn’t talk to them before leaving run up unless I’d been an exceptionally long time.

 

[ateamer]

A bit of a high jack here, but related...

I guess I missed something in my training, but I've never left a runup area at a towered airport without first contacting the tower with the "ready to go" speech. Yet I've seen a number of posts where it appears quite normal to proceed to the hold short line from the runup area without talking to anyone. This just seems to be strange considering there are "movement areas" and the general guidance is to have clearance from tower or ground prior to moving in all movement areas.

Is this mention somewhere in the regs?

If you were cleared to taxi to the runway, there shouldn’t need to be further taxi clearance between the runup and the hold-short.

 

[RussR]

If you were cleared to taxi to the runway, there shouldn’t need to be further taxi clearance between the runup and the hold-short.

This. The taxi clearance is (typically) to the runway, not to the runup area. As a piston airplane, it is expected that you will pull off into the runup area, do your thing, then continue on as cleared. Meaning taxi up to the runway, hold short, and call tower. Consider this the "default" behavior.

When this is NOT the expectation, it needs to be clearly stated on the ATIS or signage. Since there are many different taxiway/runup area configurations, ambiguity can cause problems.

Consider KRVS in Tulsa - basically that whole area with the compass rose is a giant runup area. It's an airport with multiple busy flight schools. On the ATIS during busy times, they do specify to call ground (I think) when runup is complete. And I believe the taxi instructions will be "taxi to the runup area".



Then there's KGJT, Grand Junction, CO, where the runup pad is over half a mile from the end of runway 11. If I remember right, they have a sign here instructing you to contact ground for further taxi.



Then there's KCRP, Corpus Christi, TX, where the runup pad is a little bit away from the runway, but not too far, and there is no sign or ATIS instructions. So you do your thing and then leave the runup area without further instruction.

 

[elvisAteMySandwich]

The Class D's I trained and flew to VFR were like the "default behavior" that @RussR mentioned. Do runup and taxi to hold-short and notify tower I'm ready for departure. One exception was KMMU when they were doing construction, was instructed to contact ground again when runup was complete to get taxi clearance to runway.

With starting IFR flying now, I feel like I should just wait in the runup area for my IFR release - but that might be behind a bunch of VFR traffic already in line at the hold-short ... hence my confusion. You get an IFR release, but then have to tell tower that you're number 4 in sequence?

 

[Hang 4]

Why not ask what they want you to do when you get your clearance? At my "D", I just roll up to the runway and call tower. I know at other airports expectations are different.

 

[Pinecone]

Even in your case, if you had a complex clearance and it needed to be read back a few times to sort out errors, it could take you a while.

You should not be calling for your IFR clearance in the runup area.

We are taking about your IFR release.

 

[Llewtrah381]

You should not be calling for your IFR clearance in the runup area.

We are taking about your IFR release.

Yeah, you’re right. My bad. I should have stuck with just the long runups.

 

[Larry in TN]

The tower controller will deal with it. If necessary, he'll move the Cherokee out of your way.

 

[4RNB]

How did the Cherokee sneak up? Were they not talking on frequency to the same people?

 

[elvisAteMySandwich]

How did the Cherokee sneak up? Were they not talking on frequency to the same

Seems like they were on frequency but didn’t hear tower giving me IFR release and instructions to follow cessna. They stopped as soon as I called tower for clarification since cherokee was on the move.

 

[cowman]

If you were cleared to taxi to the runway, there shouldn’t need to be further taxi clearance between the runup and the hold-short.

This is my interpretation- you were cleared to the runway already which generally means to the hold short line. If anything it almost seems to me like pulling off into a runup area would be more of a deviation. If you think about it on commercial/multi-pilot crewed flights the runup/checklist activities are generally done during taxi so this makes sense.

Where I think it gets a little unclear is unless I'm mistaken runup areas aren't really a defined thing. Some airports have the little pull-off area just before the end of the runway, some don't, others may have something midway down the taxiway- they may have them on some runways but not others, etc. Some fields seem to expect you to be ready to go by the hold short line. In my experience the locals/regulars at a given airport 'just know' what the normal procedure/flow is at a given field and if you're transient it's kind of just on you to figure it out.

 

[brien23]

You can always just get in line and should the tower clear you by mistake VFR takeoff that was a IFR release, it's now ATC problem to scramble and fit you in, or how to make new friends and influence people or care less with other behind you now stuck waiting for your release.