You must have access to much better photo sources than most of us if you have stuff that is only a few minutes old and shows current weather, water, obstructions!
So, yeah, if Trent had that, he should have presented that as part of his defense.
Trent Palmer (YouTuber Bush Pilot Channel) Suspended By FAA
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So, yeah, if Trent had that, he should have presented that as part of his defense.
Brad Z
Final Approach
I wonder what would happen if one day I decided it would be funny to buzz my buddies house, so I did it, his neighbor ratted me out, but when the FAA called, I claimed I was planning to land on his drive way and the buzz job was an inspection pass? Oh, and I had my own YouTube channel with a bunch of followers whom I convinced the attempted landing bit was the truth.
Tarheelpilot
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I bet it would get a minimum of 23 pages worth of circle jerking and measuring on POA
True, but I see a common thread in the cases I've read being more about the choice of landing area given the overall picture than about low passes. And, since other off-field landing locations don't require an approach through an adjoining residential back yard, if you are saying at this point that the decision bans all low passes then you are also applying it far more broadly than it's set of facts but in a different way.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
What water and what obstructions were there that weren't in sat photos? I mean I know the desert is known for its copius amounts of water and trees.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Is your plane capable of landing and taking off on the driveway without running off the end? My grandparents had one that was long enough to do so.
Tarheelpilot
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No way to know until you get there and see for yourself.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Which can be done on a low approach.
If the fact that the off airport guide, every bush pilot I've ever met, the findings in Trents case and seemingly everyone responding to you aren't enough to convince you that an incremental approach is the correct one, then no one is gonna be able to help you. Go bombing into unfamiliar areas at low altitude if you want. Eventually it will bite you either with a bent plane or a violation.
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skykidjb
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From the recent FAA Reauthorization Bill "SEC. 809. ENSURING SAFE LANDINGS DURING OFF-AIRPORT OPERATIONS. The Administrator shall not apply section 91.119 of title 14,Code of Federal Regulations, in any manner that requires a pilot to continue a landing that is unsafe." Perhaps making this law will help the FAA review of such a case in the future.
Tarheelpilot
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Yeah. And the faster you go the better it works. ;-)
Just FYI I have a couple thousand hours legally flying very low to the ground spraying fields and we always dispatched to the job with satellite imagery of the fields. They don’t eliminate the need for the higher altitude assessments. That included flying in desert areas. This guy pushed the press to test. Nothing about this scenario is reasonable in regards to his actions based on the information publicly available, in my opinion. I don’t believe his story for even a second. He was just buzzing his buddies house.
Just have to agree to disagree.
idahoflier
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This is exactly the issue! 500 AGL and making inspection passes isn't the issue, admitting to and operating closer than 500 feet to any vessel, vehicle, or structure is.
I suspect that OJ also allowed his attorneys to decide how best to defend him.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I have, and neither has happened. I also had conversation with the owner (a pilot) of the property about the area before flying over. No need for multiple passes as everything around was farm fields except for some trees at the north end and neighbor house at the south. There was zero reason to fly over at 2000 then 1000 then whatever altitude before making the landing. It was a low pass (over the house because it lined up with the area) then a low circle around and a landing.
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EdFred
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Every time I fly a practice instrument approach with zero intention to land (I don't put the gear down), I operate closer than 500' to a structure. Better violate me too.
idahoflier
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EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Let me paraphrase...Someone has a published approach for their backyard? That's cool!
Flying below 500 AGL and flying instrument approaches isnt the issue, admitting to and operating closer than 500 feet to any vessel, vehicle, or structure is.
At least have some consistency with your position.
hindsight2020
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didn't the latest reauthorization bill have some provision that indirectly addresses the kerfuffle about kango court trying to hang ya over go-arounds being blown out of proportion by the typical residential real estate NIMBY? I think if we could at least get some guardrails against tyrannical, purposefully vaguely worded catch-alls, much of this back and forth would be self-limiting.
idahoflier
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Yes. For some reason people can't see that Trent got popped for buzzing around houses. I thought he got popped for making inspection passes over a friends property and I was up in arms over it as much as anyone else. The aforementioned rule wouldn't have changed the situation for him and it certainly isn't going to make it legal to make inspection passes over your local neighborhood...
idahoflier
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I don't see the inconsistency in my position? If you're saying it's perfectly legal to fly inspection passes over a neighborhood or more likely in this case a subdivision then I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree...
Of course, with a criminal prosecution there is a presumption of innocence. It's the other way around with an FAA enforcement.
Low passes are encouraged at our field. Years ago I was flying in a neighbor's Beech 18 with a group of non-neighborhood folk. Chris did a low pass over the runway and one of the other pilots asked if it annoyed the neighbors that he did that. I told him we'd be annoyed if he didn't.
It's amazing how many low passes we get from non-residents. I think a lot of people drop down to check it out. We get periodic visits from blackhawks which like to come over at night I guess and do NVG work or something (it's dark here). I've seen a flight of three chinooks go by, but the one that really attracted attention was a C-17.
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moparrob66
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If there was a spot on his friend's property that was legal and safe to land, I dont see how he broke any rules. It may have annoyed the neighbor, but I dont feel sorry for anyone who complains about airplanes used for safe and legal activities.
I see this case as governmental overreach and abuse of administrative authority. If they cant clearly articulate that his actions were dangerous, they should let it go.
I see this case as governmental overreach and abuse of administrative authority. If they cant clearly articulate that his actions were dangerous, they should let it go.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
We are on a direct line from MacDill AFB to the range at Avon Park. Tons of mil aircraft check us out. Highlight was a B2 at pattern altitude.
Country Flier
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So if your friend has a runway, it's no-holds-barred?
Trent flew knife edged, low to the ground, and 90° to the runway.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
I did not know that. So he also broke the FAR on low altitude aerobatics. Then this whole discussion is ridiculous. He deserves everything they throw at him.
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Tarheelpilot
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As you have said so many times in this thread the altitudes for a high recon are subjective and it’s up to the PIC to decide what’s appropriate for the situation
I’m curious. Do you think Trent was telling the truth or was he just buzzing the house?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Based on the photos of the area I saw and the reported capabilities of his airplane, I believe that his initial intent was to land. Had he been flying, say, a PA32, then it would have been an obvious buzz job and I would not believe him at all.
Was is a bit show-off-y? Yeah, but there's been low passes made at numerous grass strips and off airport locations that aren't flown by a little old lady on her way to church.
RussR
En-Route
You don't put the gear down when flying practice instrument approaches? That seems like a bad habit to develop.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Well, I'm also flying at close to yellow arc when busting out my 6+1 so it's not like I'm in the same mindset as when actually getting ready to land.
I have a completely different approach (pun intended) when I know there's a landing involved.
Then it's not really practice is it, if you're not doing it the way you normally would?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I don't fly with a big ol' hood or uncomfortable foggles when I fly them normally either. I still run my scan as I normally would.
moparrob66
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If any evidence supports his low altitude "knife edge" aerobatics, wouldnt they charge him with that? I think part of the problem i have with this all is that the evidence is some Karen's whiny statement and grainy cellphone video of another video screen. If my neighbor had a runway, I'd want any traffic to operate safely.
The rules are meant to provide a measure of safety for an unforgiving mode of conveyance. If his actions were irritating and insolent but not articulably dangerous, let it go.
The rules are meant to provide a measure of safety for an unforgiving mode of conveyance. If his actions were irritating and insolent but not articulably dangerous, let it go.
RussR
En-Route
At work it is not uncommon for us to fly upwards of 20 "practice approaches" in a day, all to a low approach. We operate as a two pilot crew, adhere strictly to checklists and still put the gear down every single time. So we don't forget that 1 time out of 20 when we actually land (like at the end of the flight).
(They're not strictly "practice approaches", but are done under VFR. No, we are not wearing a hood.)
When I teach complex endorsements, I train my students to put the gear down every time by final, whether they intend to land or not.
I'm glad that you haven't yet had an issue, but the idea of putting the gear down sometimes and not doing it other times strikes me as a really bad idea from a human behavior/habit pattern standpoint.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
To me its two different mindsets, like when talking on the phone with customers vs talking on the phone with friends. In 30+ years I haven't told a customer something inappropriate.
I brief each approach with whether I am landing or not. If I am I have 5 gear checks. Once at FAF, flaps 1 flaps 2 flaps 3 breakout and over numbers.
Yeah, it doesn’t matter to me so much that you don’t pull the knob physically. It’s just that the plane doesn’t fly the same so you aren’t practicing the thing you will do at all IMO. You’re practicing something entirely different. Power setting will be different, speeds, probably even attitude.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
I've also had to keep best forward speed multiple times on approach because of turbine traffic behind me. So not every real approach is flown the same either. I know I can fly the plane at near red line until 1/2 a mile and still hit the numbers. I practice different approach speeds and configurations because when I go into certain places I've had to fly them at different speeds.
Just like when I instructed martial arts. At the beginning we did do everything the same repeatedly, but as students moved up in rank, those techniques got modified for dealing with different sized and speed attackers. When I was learning instrument flying it was as close to the same as we could every time. Aftet a couple years of having the ticket you put a few different things in the bag of tricks. Just like with non-instument flying.
Omalley1537
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Sean
Disclaimer: the following ignores any poor choices by Trent, and is more of a general statement about whiny people…
Unfortunately in the modern era, too many people in high places are unwilling to sack up and tell people “no.” Unfortunately this trickles down through organizations, where line-level folks who ARE willing to say no get thrown under the bus when the now-dissatisfied Karen “demands a manager.” Word quickly gets out that you either appease these fine specimens of humanity, or get hammered by the admin.
I’m to the point in my career where I am (a) in a supervisory capacity and (b) truly don’t care whether someone wants to complain just because they didn’t get their way, but I have that luxury because I’m so close to moving on to career #2. Unfortunately, those on the other end of the career calendar aren’t so fortunate, especially at other area employers in a similar field.
Thus, these
Always goes down for me. Where is a matter of discussion. The guy who taught me for most wanted the gear down all through the approach. Others who instructed me say drop at GS intercept/FAF. Since the Navion has a rather slow Vle speed, the latter works better. The drag from the gear helps with getting into the descent at that point anyhow.