Garmin G5 Calibration Pitch Shows Nose High Level Flight

Did it 10 times(?), just like he repeatedly raled about the G5 not conforming to an unrealistic vision of flight physics. I hope the OP is not disappointed that his G5 is not going to read zero degrees in level flight at both cruise and approach speeds, or with different passenger loadings. No matter how many times he has his mechanic readjust the offset on the ground.
Ha ha "flight physics". Oh my gosh. No kidding. Who knew? Oh everyone. Ha ha. I do know aerodynamics or flight dynamics, as well as math, science and physics, ATP flown over 40 planes both GA and Airline, graduate degree in mechanical engineering, I got this chemgeek and can derive the lift equation. I took "flight physics" (aerodynamics) working on my Masters in Mechanical engineer at U of Washington from professor who designed winglets for notable aircraft. My tip, read a thread first and stick to topic, before commenting. We went over this about 5 times above. I am competent. Really. However you made me laugh "flight physics", formally called aerodynamics, until now. Thank you.

My Airframe Inspector (A&P / AI)I just sent this to me... calibrated. So pretty. Adjusted to read level in level flight based on flight test (not at 14,000' or slow flight, and at typically 1400 to 1670 lbs gross weight, it's a C152 boys and girls). The picture is on ground with A/C in flight attitude not maintenance / rigging level. Left G5 is normally PFD, Right HSI, both integrated with GNS430W. Nice basic set up for IFR trainer. Have a nice day.

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Actually the students adapt to it very quickly, the pilots who seem to struggle a bit are the pilots with lots of Vac AI time.

The other issues are the adjustment is only valid at the gross weight/CG/TAS condition you make the adjustment for. Your student who transitions to other aircraft are not going to be able to demand adjustments because many PFDs are not adjustable or they are going to be told to grow up.
Yea I have been flying glass cockpits for +30 years. Yet I still like my C152 IFR trainer I teach students in to be SOMEWHERE in the ball park of indicating level in level flight, Then your little petulant snip below is noted.

pilots who seem to struggle a bit are the pilots with lots of Vac AI time"
Don't care, yawn. We are NOT adopting to the pitch being way above horizon in level flight. Got it. Deal with it. Go to your safe space. Ha ha. Since I have over 1000 hrs of dual given, helped many get their instrument rating I think I know what my students need. If or when you are ever a CFI do as you like. We are flying precision approaches in IMC. It is like the analogy I made above to gun sights. You can shoot fine with FIXED IRON sights, but with RED DOT you can acquire target quicker and be more accurate. With a SCOPE you can shoot precisely out 100 yards. You may accept sloppy so it is fine for you.

Your student who transitions to other aircraft are not going to be able to demand adjustments because many PFDs are not adjustable or they are going to be told to grow up.
OH NO... ha ha... They are going to DEMAND... I am speechless at how pedantic that is. There are many G5's set up wrong and pilots adopting and LIKELY pilots flying like garbage and don't care or notice since they are VFR. May be you are one of those VFR only pilot who "adapts" to be +/-300 feet altitude and +/- 20 degrees heading. VFR you don't even NEED a Attitude indicator Vac or Electronic. So sure who cares how the G5 is calibrated.

The Regs say NOT pilot adjustable. It does not mean it can't be calibrated better. Large transport jets have VERY specific required MX steps to calibrate. However the calibration makes sense. I know I worked in certification and flight test. The G5 in General Aviation? Not so much. Left up to the installers descension. So why not set it like 99% of pilots would adjust or CAL their EFI AI/PFD, if they had access to pitch indication in flight? Why not? Tell me. Do you know? There is no point to your argument.

I know being close to zero (not exactly) in nominal conditions is better. I have experience. Pilots should not accept #$%*. Pilots, may be you are one, just ADAPT to low fuel, bad weather, aircraft maintenance issues and instruments that don't read properly. Adapting and not thinking leads to accidents. Yes I demand perfection. I am good with that. I am not turning out pilots who GO ALONG with something that is dumb. It is dumb not to adjust the G5 to read properly. But you do you.

Repeat large jets have TYPE CERT glass cockpits specifically certified for that aircraft, by FLIGHT TEST with flight test crews and engineers blessed by FAA specifically for that installation. They have maintenance manuals if printed are 5 inches thick. NOT the case with a G5 slapped in the place of vacuum instruments in a C152. You do have to adapt to transport aircraft? Yes. We are talking about two ATP's, two or three autopilots, auto throttles... Yes I adapt to my Boeing very nicely and the range of pitches does change as one might image with a huge operating envelope of weight, speed, altitude. I hand fly it when I want or during training. It is easy for me. However I have north of 14K hours.

However single pilot, instrument student, no autopilot, flying to mins in a C152, I want them to have an accurate instrument that gives them GOOD INFO they can use and interpret quickly. These students will transition into a C182 with autopilot, GTN750, one G5 and Vac AI. What? Vacuum AI. Yep. It works GREAT and is adjustable in pitch. Sorry.

Your comment to justify "adapt" to a poorly calibrated G5 in a basic IFR trainer, is YOUNG pilots will adopt, but I will make them demanding, while OLD crusty pilots (me apparently) use to Vac instruments so we struggle. Ha ha. Oh my. Mind bending. You Red Pilled me young man. For the record no one is struggling.

The illogical comment my students will DEMAND (safety) in the future is ludicrous. Don't care. It is far easier to have pitch reading close to the BIG WHITE LINE REF (zero pitch) in a tiny plane you are hand flying in IMC to Mins with no autopilot. Are you a pilot? Instrument rated? This is really a no brainer. I did the research and you adapt. Your comments are irrelevant to me and my students. The G5's are calibrated now and life is good. Do as you like.
 
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The first time I used a G5 was during instrument training. The first time I turned it on I noticed it was 3-5 deg nose high. The first thing I tried was adjusting it to zero.

After checking things out, I saw that you can’t just reach up and adjust it with a knob.

Are any electronic AIs adjustable for pitch? (not asking about experimental, this would be a standard 172).

I moved from a Dynon 172 that was zero on the ground into that G5 172 that was +3-5 on the ground. I learned to deal with it, but have wondered the reasons for not allowing pilot adjustments.
 
The first time I used a G5 was during instrument training. The first time I turned it on I noticed it was 3-5 deg nose high. The first thing I tried was adjusting it to zero.

After checking things out, I saw that you can’t just reach up and adjust it with a knob.

Are any electronic AIs adjustable for pitch? (not asking about experimental, this would be a standard 172).

I moved from a Dynon 172 that was zero on the ground into that G5 172 that was +3-5 on the ground. I learned to deal with it, but have wondered the reasons for not allowing pilot adjustments.

Great question. Ask the FAA. Here is a good history from Wiki on EFIS:


Since Military and Part 25 planes (transport aircraft) already had glass for a long time before GA even dreamed of it, my guess, FAA looked at those regulations. Also keep in mind the whole flight deck was certified for that aircraft. It was not some generic afterthought retrofit instrument.

You can imagine a military plane or airliner flown by several different crews daily might not want pilots adjusting the flight instrument? It is like the screw on oil dipstick of a Lycoming powered sky scooter rental plane. Some pilots screw it down so tight you need a jack hammer to remove it. Lesson some pilots should not touch airplanes. Ha ha.

Bottom line is companies that make retrofit Glass for certified planes but also market to experimental, virtually the same instrument, give the experimental versions ability to adjust pitch. May be the FAA should revise the regulation. However frankly it is no big deal. Adjust it as the FAA and manufactures have given installers the ability to do, adjust to pilots preference and what 99% of pilots want. Some people (read above) assume you just have to accept it. Nope. So it is not a big deal in the end. The FAA just wants A&P's to do it not the pilot.
Overall on one end of the spectrum you have EFIS cockpits certified to a specific aircraft. On the other end are experimental aircraft that can have non certified instrument installations and amateur kit builders can adjust them all day. In the middle is this EFIS Retrofit into GA planes, and is a compromise between to two extremes.


I know how people in certification and FAA think. My best friend is guru in all topics dealing with aircraft electronics, com, data, systems. I work with FAA and manufactures. They are one RISK adverse. Second they are regulatory and make and follow rules. Some times other factors get into the mix that makes the rules less than ideal. I think it is a reasonable to restrict pilot adjustment of EFIS. HOWEVER it requires reasonable maintainers and pilots to understand and not ADAPT too much. There is no reason all GA planes with retrofit EFIS can not read near zero pitch in level (nominal) flight not +3 degrees. It just takes some effort to understand the STC and use common sense. Instead mechanics "LEVEL" the plane and adjust offset of pitch to match. Pilots know no better and accept it. So we have a lot of planes all flying around with 2.5 to 5 degrees nose up indicated pitch in level flight. In VFR who cares. IMC it is not ideal IMHO.

To FAA credit when they got on board of Retro-fit of EFIS, they made the AML-STC non specific for Dynon , Garmin, uAvionix to cut the cost of certifying and keep cost down. If they had to flight test and certify each plane individually, it would be cost prohibitive. That is why the pitch calibration is somewhat vague in the installation manual. Some manufactures only do type specific EFIS .


These Regs may have evolved over time and may still change. Technology is improving. If you fly a rental and maintenance refuses to calibrate it, fine. Pilots have figured out how to adjust it. It is not impossible, but I don't recommend people do it without coordinating with maintenance. If you own the plane...well... up to you.

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My EFIS journey started at airlines early 90's; and I bought one of the early Dynon EFIS-D10's around 2004 which came out in 2003 for my RV6 kit plane. 2003 was also about the time Circus SR20/S22 came out with glass cockpit, Avidyne I recall. Keep in mind the Avidyne was certified for that specific plane. Those boxes can only go in a Cirrus. I wonder how it was calibrated and if it was pilot adjustable. Don't know, any Circus maintainers or pilots out there? What ever the level pitch indication was it was all decided on by Circus, Avidyne and the FAA and written in stone in maintenance manuals. This is different than a G5 in a Cessna. Cessna has nothing to do with it, and FAA gave a blanket installation approval.

I did a flight review in a privately owned Cardinal C177B with uAvionix. I was not impressed. The plane was geat but instruments not so much. He had purchased the plane fairly recently. The owner/pilot, later found out he had the NON certified version of the instruments. He has to replace them. The DG swung and could not hold heading. He needs a remote magnetometer option. The uAvionix does not integrate with the Garmin GPS well or if at all, at this time. I will say the G5's are better and integrate far better with Garmin GPS, since they are both by Garmin.

I have also flown Aspen and their business model is Certified planes only. The one I flew was in a Cherokee. It was fine. I am not sure, but I think they have specific make model STC's to install their EFIS. They make no experimental versions. This is better but they also cost a little more.

First schedule airline I flew with had De Havilland Dash 8's, Metros and F28's. All the plane had analog or electro mechanical flight instruments, this is early 90's. However the De Havilland Dash 8's had Glass available. The company passed on Glass and got traditional flight instruments. Why? When purchasing them they got a demo in a Glass cockpit model, and the EFIS failed. Apparently plane was cold soaked. So we have come a long way in 30 years. No airline would buy a new aircraft with analog gauges today even if available. Even Cessna are all glass, but then again they are $400K plus for a new Skyhawk,

The G5 or whatever EFIS brand, none of them are perfect. They can fail and lie to you, so always have options and backups to the Glass... and yes the tried and true ELECTRIC TC or Turn & Bank may save your bacon someday.
 
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Ha ha "flight physics". Oh my gosh. No kidding. Who knew? Oh everyone. Ha ha. I do know aerodynamics or flight dynamics, as well as math, science and physics, ATP flown over 40 planes both GA and Airline, graduate degree in mechanical engineering, I got this chemgeek and can derive the lift equation. I took "flight physics" (aerodynamics) working on my Masters in Mechanical engineer at U of Washington from professor who designed winglets for notable aircraft. My tip, read a thread first and stick to topic, before commenting. We went over this about 5 times above. I am competent. Really. However you made me laugh "flight physics", formally called aerodynamics, until now. Thank you.

My Airframe Inspector (A&P / AI)I just sent this to me... calibrated. So pretty. Adjusted to read level in level flight based on flight test (not at 14,000' or slow flight, and at typically 1400 to 1670 lbs gross weight, it's a C152 boys and girls). The picture is on ground with A/C in flight attitude not maintenance / rigging level. Left G5 is normally PFD, Right HSI, both integrated with GNS430W. Nice basic set up for IFR trainer. Have a nice day.

View attachment 121903

Your students are going to be in for a heck of a surprise when they move on to another aircraft that has properly configured avionics and have to fly level flight based on actual aircraft attitude.
 
I think it comes down to what the Pilot desires. For me, I want the pitch angle indicator to read 0 deg when straight and level at 2650 rpm, my typical cruise power setting. After that, a configuration chart for the various IFR configurations/maneuvers with power setting, airspeed, climb rate, flaps, and pitch attitude.
 
Garmin calls it the "Flight Path Marker" or "FPM" (aka "The Meatball"). Here you can see it as the green circle on the GI275 showing a 2.5 degree climb despite the pitch angle somewhat close to the horizon line.

50878340341_c77186ba62_n.jpg
I’m not near the airport and besides, we’re in the first snowstorm dump of the season. Does the G5 also have the FPM?

No rush on the answer, I’m just hanging out here with my bag of popcorn.
 
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I’m not near the airport and besides, we’re in the first snowstorm dump of the season. Does the G5 also have the FPM?

No rush on the answer, I’m just hanging out here with my bag of popcorn.
Not currently that I'm aware of, although I imagine it's probably a software patch and marketing department veto away. In the G1000, you need a synthetic vis data subscription. I don't remember if that's also the prerequisite on a GI275.
 
Did it 10 times(?), just like he repeatedly raled about the G5 not conforming to an unrealistic vision of flight physics. I hope the OP is not disappointed that his G5 is not going to read zero degrees in level flight at both cruise and approach speeds, or with different passenger loadings. No matter how many times he has his mechanic readjust the offset on the ground.
Generally it's nice in a small GA aircraft to have cruise flight show a zero pitch on the AI. Easier to hand fly in IMC, easier to cross reference, etc. The speed range for most spam cans is not so great that midweight cruise level AI indication will change pitch much at low or high weights.

On the descent of an approach the airplane will be below the horizon anyhow - why would one want it to show level flight then? Or if you mean approach configuration at a lower airspeed might show a little pitch up, it might, but often the first setting of flaps are also engaged, forcing the pitch back down and near level again.

This is all based on many hours hand flown in IMC (always with two AI FWIW).
 
Why would I want it to be "level" at cruise versus at approach speeds? When shooting an approach, a lot of things are happening, and if you get behind on your scan, you can be off your desired attitude, so "level" indication is more important, IMO.

As for a 172 versus the rest of the world, why teach something that will be only true (limited speed range, limited CG range, limited weight change) on ONE airplane?

I may be biased, but I learned instrument flying in jets. Including one that had a more than 30 KIAS different approach speed depending on amount of fuel on board.
 
Yea I have been flying glass cockpits for +30 years. Yet I still like my C152 IFR trainer I teach students in to be SOMEWHERE in the ball park of indicating level in level flight, Then your little petulant snip below is noted.


Don't care, yawn. We are NOT adopting to the pitch being way above horizon in level flight. Got it. Deal with it. Go to your safe space. Ha ha. Since I have over 1000 hrs of dual given, helped many get their instrument rating I think I know what my students need. If or when you are ever a CFI do as you like. We are flying precision approaches in IMC. It is like the analogy I made above to gun sights. You can shoot fine with FIXED IRON sights, but with RED DOT you can acquire target quicker and be more accurate. With a SCOPE you can shoot precisely out 100 yards. You may accept sloppy so it is fine for you.


OH NO... ha ha... They are going to DEMAND... I am speechless at how pedantic that is. There are many G5's set up wrong and pilots adopting and LIKELY pilots flying like garbage and don't care or notice since they are VFR. May be you are one of those VFR only pilot who "adapts" to be +/-300 feet altitude and +/- 20 degrees heading. VFR you don't even NEED a Attitude indicator Vac or Electronic. So sure who cares how the G5 is calibrated.

The Regs say NOT pilot adjustable. It does not mean it can't be calibrated better. Large transport jets have VERY specific required MX steps to calibrate. However the calibration makes sense. I know I worked in certification and flight test. The G5 in General Aviation? Not so much. Left up to the installers descension. So why not set it like 99% of pilots would adjust or CAL their EFI AI/PFD, if they had access to pitch indication in flight? Why not? Tell me. Do you know? There is no point to your argument.

I know being close to zero (not exactly) in nominal conditions is better. I have experience. Pilots should not accept #$%*. Pilots, may be you are one, just ADAPT to low fuel, bad weather, aircraft maintenance issues and instruments that don't read properly. Adapting and not thinking leads to accidents. Yes I demand perfection. I am good with that. I am not turning out pilots who GO ALONG with something that is dumb. It is dumb not to adjust the G5 to read properly. But you do you.

Repeat large jets have TYPE CERT glass cockpits specifically certified for that aircraft, by FLIGHT TEST with flight test crews and engineers blessed by FAA specifically for that installation. They have maintenance manuals if printed are 5 inches thick. NOT the case with a G5 slapped in the place of vacuum instruments in a C152. You do have to adapt to transport aircraft? Yes. We are talking about two ATP's, two or three autopilots, auto throttles... Yes I adapt to my Boeing very nicely and the range of pitches does change as one might image with a huge operating envelope of weight, speed, altitude. I hand fly it when I want or during training. It is easy for me. However I have north of 14K hours.

However single pilot, instrument student, no autopilot, flying to mins in a C152, I want them to have an accurate instrument that gives them GOOD INFO they can use and interpret quickly. These students will transition into a C182 with autopilot, GTN750, one G5 and Vac AI. What? Vacuum AI. Yep. It works GREAT and is adjustable in pitch. Sorry.

Your comment to justify "adapt" to a poorly calibrated G5 in a basic IFR trainer, is YOUNG pilots will adopt, but I will make them demanding, while OLD crusty pilots (me apparently) use to Vac instruments so we struggle. Ha ha. Oh my. Mind bending. You Red Pilled me young man. For the record no one is struggling.

The illogical comment my students will DEMAND (safety) in the future is ludicrous. Don't care. It is far easier to have pitch reading close to the BIG WHITE LINE REF (zero pitch) in a tiny plane you are hand flying in IMC to Mins with no autopilot. Are you a pilot? Instrument rated? This is really a no brainer. I did the research and you adapt. Your comments are irrelevant to me and my students. The G5's are calibrated now and life is good. Do as you like.
A 152 is basically always cruising near gross at the same CG loading and the same airspeed. Who are your students going DEMAND a 0°AI in a plane that actually has a weight and CG range and a cruise speed that is variable with GW changes or they are required to cruise a slower speeds due to turbulence?
 
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Still submit that when one transitions to a bigger faster plane that has a wide variation in cruise speed, that is the time to get familiar with a nose up presentation in level flight. While training, it's nice to have a level AI in cruise, above the horizon in a climb, and a bit below (often the width of the line) below the horizon in a descent or on an approach.

Anyhow that's how my AI's present in aircraft that fly IFR from about 85 to 160 KIAS. YMMV.
 
This thread is still going on?

I noticed last week that my work plane (King Air 300) shows about 1.5 deg nose up pitch in level flight at FL 250 (Collins Pro Line 21 avionics). Which, due to the display size, is about 1/4 inch or so above the horizon line (which, since it has synthetic vision, is itself about 2.5 deg above the synthetic horizon).
 
This thread is still going on?

I noticed last week that my work plane (King Air 300) shows about 1.5 deg nose up pitch in level flight at FL 250 (Collins Pro Line 21 avionics). Which, due to the display size, is about 1/4 inch or so above the horizon line (which, since it has synthetic vision, is itself about 2.5 deg above the synthetic horizon).
You better get that zero’d right away.
 
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Why would I want it to be "level" at cruise versus at approach speeds? When shooting an approach, a lot of things are happening, and if you get behind on your scan, you can be off your desired attitude, so "level" indication is more important, IMO.

As for a 172 versus the rest of the world, why teach something that will be only true (limited speed range, limited CG range, limited weight change) on ONE airplane?

I may be biased, but I learned instrument flying in jets. Including one that had a more than 30 KIAS different approach speed depending on amount of fuel on board.

I am going to regret answering this dead thread BUT your logic is convoluted with "WHY?" We all agree that pitch indication will vary throughout a flight, with power, airspeed, altitude, aircraft weight, phase of flight (climb, level, descent). WHY? I answered this 10 times above, yet you ask WHY? Good grief.

Why not pick the flight condition(s) you are at 90% of the time? AI pitch now reads approx zero 90% of the flight throughout: enroute phase, initial and intermediate approach segments. Final approach segment at level (trimmed) cruise speed (90kts) at 450 fpm descent (approx 3 degree glide path), pitch is slightly below level but not much. Much easier to control than somewhere nose up off any indices. Climb clearly your AOA is higher and thus your pitch indication is not level, it's nose up, daaaaa.

So your point is what? If you can fly around with the AI always at 3 degrees why not fly around with AI close to ZERO near that BIG horizon indice. Really give it a rest. This is a no brainer and not a big deal. Do as you like.

No offense but "WHY?" is a red herring, irrelevant. You are either being willfully ignorant, didn't' read and/or comprehend the "why" stated and repeated 10 times above, or you can't be encumbered with facts. Again relax, it is safe, legal and works.

I and my students love it. How do I know. My students are flying precisely by sole reference to instruments, i.e., attitude instrument flying, better than ACS task standards. We're doing something right. Why ask why? No reason, it's waste of time. Why has been stated and valid. We are good.
 
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If the Airbus were calibrated to 0°during level flight, we would be consistently smacking the tail on the runway during landing.

In the Bus, level flight at 180 kts with flaps 1 is 8-9 degrees nose up.
 
I noticed in the G1000 Malibu the other day that at cruise at 11000, the pitch attitude was 1 deg down. About 1/4 inch given the display size.
 
If the Airbus were calibrated to 0°during level flight, we would be consistently smacking the tail on the runway during landing.

In the Bus, level flight at 180 kts with flaps 1 is 8-9 degrees nose up.
I feel sorry for those pushing the drink cart uphill.
 
This is one of the more unique threads I've reviewed on POA... indeed, some massive misconceptions here. Legacy instruments presented parallax issues, which the pitch adjustment allowed the pilot to mechanically adjust for his/her line of site to the instrument. Electronic ADIs don't present this issue, and therefore "shouldn't" need a pilot adjustable pitch offset. But as has been noted in the thread, many generations of pilots gravitated to the notion that "straight and level" at cruise airspeed - or even other airspeeds - ought to depict the nose 0.0 degrees above the horizon. Definitely not accurate. That's what a FPV is for.

I don't want to muddy the waters with an entirely different type of display, a HUD, but I will anyway. One needn't need to fly an aircraft with a HUD or even care about how a HUD works to get the point.

g450_hud_alaska_1_mike_keller.jpg


There's a lot going on here, and I don't personally prefer to organize my HUD this way, but there are only three things that are germane to the discussion and they won't be hard to interpret: the horizon line (technically called the "Zero Pitch Reference Line"), the Boresight, and the Flight Path Vector.

The horizon line is the solid horizontal line extending from left to right, above the mountains in the distance. The Boresight is the small "v" with wings just touching the peaks of the distant snow-capped mountains, and right below that is the FPV. Really simple: the boresight is simply where the nose of the aircraft is pointing. The FPV is depicting the actual path the aircraft is traveling.

This quickly demonstrates three things: 1) the actual horizon, and the perceived horizon are offset quite a bit at 16,000', and this offset is even apparent below 10,000 feet using this tool. 2) The aircraft's nose is pointing down about 1.5 degrees. 3) The actual vertical flight path of the aircraft is just a bit less than 3.0 degrees - call it 2.8 possibly.

I would hope that we could all agree, with just a little thought, that understanding this relationship is critical to the pilot's ability to determine AOA. In the case of aircraft with a more limited attitude information presentation, such as an aircraft with a legacy vacuum ADI or even a Garmin G5 (of which I also own a couple, by the way) you only get one piece from the above depiction - the "boresight." Attitude. Nothing else. It's up to the pilot to correlate airspeed, G-loading, etc. to approximate AOA. Or, use an AOA device of some kind alongside the ADI.

We're seeing a slow shift to "flight path" based symbology, and bringing that symbology to the PFD in addition to the HUD. This symbology is pilot selectable. This should be very clear, that we're looking at straight and level flight:

hud_symbology_pfd.jpg


Note the pitch attitude of the aircraft is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5 degrees nose up based on the boresight, but the FPV shows straight and level flight. This is an accurate way to present the relationship of aircraft attitude to aircraft flight path.

Adjusting a calibrated electronic ADI to portray an attitude which is not representative of the aircraft's actual attitude is inappropriate at best. Until the displays offer symbology similar to that above, this is what we'd need to accept:

conventional_pfd.jpg

Note that this is a different avionics suite depicting a different airspeed/attitude/etc. but imagine the aircraft symbol being at 2.5 degrees nose up here - that is normal, and what the pilot should see. It is, after all, an attitude indicator. Not a flight path indicator.

(Not yet, anyway.)

All the best,
 
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This is one of the more unique threads I've reviewed on POA... indeed, some massive misconceptions here. Legacy instruments presented parallax issues, which the pitch adjustment allowed the pilot to mechanically adjust for his/her line of site to the instrument.

All the best,
What misconception? Be spacific. Parallax and "legacy" instruments is off topic and irrelevant. Showing pictures cut from internet of advanced HUD (STC'ed or certified to a specific aircraft) is also irrelevant and off topic, although they pretty. pictures. Let's thread drift to FLIR, forward looking infrared cameras? A $1.2M Cirrus SR22T in the hanger has FLIR. I will ask the club to put $120,000 in avionics in the C152 instrument trainer. I will let you know what they say. Ha ha.

We are good with dual G5's and a GNS430W for now. Please read the whole thread and make a specific comments to specific statements that are misconceptions, not a strawman argument off topic showing HUD's and talking of parallax. 3 deg nose up in level flight is not a parallax issue. I have flown glass since 1990. Read the thread first. Focus on the topic. It is closed by the way, resolved, legal, safe and done.
 
What misconception? Be spacific. Parallax and "legacy" instruments is off topic and irrelevant. Showing pictures cut from internet of advanced HUD (STC'ed or certified to a specific aircraft) is also irrelevant and off topic, although they pretty. pictures. Let's thread drift to FLIR, forward looking infrared cameras? A $1.2M Cirrus SR22T in the hanger has FLIR. I will ask the club to put $120,000 in avionics in the C152 instrument trainer. I will let you know what they say. Ha ha.

We are good with dual G5's and a GNS430W for now. Please read the whole thread and make a specific comments to specific statements that are misconceptions, not a strawman argument off topic showing HUD's and talking of parallax. 3 deg nose up in level flight is not a parallax issue. I have flown glass since 1990. Read the thread first. Focus on the topic. It is closed by the way, resolved, legal, safe and done.

I have nothing to add... thank you.
 
I am going to regret answering this dead thread BUT your logic is convoluted with "WHY?" We all agree that pitch indication will vary throughout a flight, with power, airspeed, altitude, aircraft weight, phase of flight (climb, level, descent). WHY? I answered this 10 times above, yet you ask WHY? Good grief.

Why not pick the flight condition(s) you are at 90% of the time? AI pitch now reads approx zero 90% of the flight throughout: enroute phase, initial and intermediate approach segments. Final approach segment at level (trimmed) cruise speed (90kts) at 450 fpm descent (approx 3 degree glide path), pitch is slightly below level but not much. Much easier to control than somewhere nose up off any indices. Climb clearly your AOA is higher and thus your pitch indication is not level, it's nose up, daaaaa.

So your point is what? If you can fly around with the AI always at 3 degrees why not fly around with AI close to ZERO near that BIG horizon indice. Really give it a rest. This is a no brainer and not a big deal. Do as you like.

No offense but "WHY?" is a red herring, irrelevant. You are either being willfully ignorant, didn't' read and/or comprehend the "why" stated and repeated 10 times above, or you can't be encumbered with facts. Again relax, it is safe, legal and works.

I and my students love it. How do I know. My students are flying precisely by sole reference to instruments, i.e., attitude instrument flying, better than ACS task standards. We're doing something right. Why ask why? No reason, it's waste of time. Why has been stated and valid. We are good.
You are missing my point.

My point is, don't you want to make things most intuitive during the most critical phase of flight, which is also where it is the highest work load?
 
You are missing my point.

My point is, don't you want to make things most intuitive during the most critical phase of flight, which is also where it is the highest work load?
What critical phase? It is is all critical... Intuitive? What are you talking about. Whose intuition? What is your intuition about what? You are missing my point. You are in level flight most of the flight (C152, C172) and in the terminal area during IAP, or in shallow descents at cruise speed. In a Jet 200-250 kts. But back to the C152. There is no big difference in airspeed from min to max in a C152 level and descent. There is no big range of pitch attitude either. Why not be near the BASE LINE... horizon on the AI. I have repeated my self so many times. You are tolling. Please stop.

If you are implying "critical" is Initial and Final Approach Segments to MDA or DA, typically with level offs, 3 to 3.5 degree glide path (at 90 kts indicated, adjusting ROD / timing for timed approach for ground speed). Then there is missed approach, cram, climb, clean, cool, call.... So what is your point? How is adjusting the AI to read reasonably close to Zero pitch in normal level flight not OK with you? That is rhetorical. I don't care, so no need to answer.

What do YOU think the difference in pitch is from LEVEL at 90 kts to DESCENT at 3 degree glide path at 90kts (that is glide not pitch attitude). It is pretty close to level +/- if your AI is adjusted property. In a jet you're nose up slightly on final descent. One place that is critical in non precision approach is at MDA and leveling off at MDA. You can NOT go below MDA unless in position to land with runway environment in sight. So having a pitch/power/trim setting to stop that descent and be level is critical to safety and a check ride. So YES an AI that a pilot can set LEVEL pitch at normal cruise (and in this case also normal approach speed, Cat A < 91 Kts)

Please read the thread before replying again Sir. I know what I want. Not my first rodeo, The G5 is adjusted, safe, legal, works well for me and my primary instrument students. It also helps Pvt students in steep turns. I use the integrated method, teaching VFR students to both look outside for visual queue as well as inside and scan instruments. I know how important a good Inst scan is and how to fly and teach attitude instrument flying. Many Inst students of mine, which I did not teach for their Pvt, after they get their Inst rating tell me how much better their VFR flying has improved. Most Pvt pilots have woefully poor instrument flying abelites. They got a cursory 3 hours required by PVT ACS and either never taught or practiced again to allow what marginal skill they had to decay.

I learned and got my Pvt in a place with 5 months of IFR or low VFR. The rest of the year could be mixed with CAVU (Caa Voo) as my WWII Pilot Dad would say, to marginal scud running VFR only. My Pvt check ride was about 1.2 hours. 30 min under the hood. I got my PVT in 40.3 hours, with 41.5 hours in my newly minted PVT pilot log-book. I have flown in really low icing conditions in part 135 single pilot light twin Ops, large two crew 121 jets as well. I think I have good intuition (risk management, CRM, SPM) and know what is critical. Thank you.

My question has been answered after the 2nd or 3rd post. This thread is on two pages now? WHY? If you are trolling stop. If you want me to teach you ask a question but read, think before typing. I get $60/hour for GA CFI dual and $187.50/Hr, ATP PIC. I accept Paypal or Venmo. I give Pilots of America discount.
 
I have nothing to add... thank you.
Ha ha yet you added. What does Parallax have to do with anything? Lets use scientific method, repeatable experiments, observation, data and mathematics (with a closed form solution)

Parallax is not present in the display of "glass" which are CRT (yes CRT) to LCD. True. There could be off angle clarity issues but not parallax.
What others have said (and what I think you are implying) is that the G5 being 3 degrees nose up is OK, get use to it, somehow related to "parallax"? Wrong.

Fact "Six-Pax" pitot/static, electric, vacuum instruments are different than "glass".True. Specifically analog AI's on GA planes had an adjustment for the airplane reference. You imply for Parallax? Not 3 degrees worth. It was just preference. Parallax is small. Lets use SCIENCE!

Experiment: Sit in a GA plane with Vac/Electric analog AI with it erected. Assume pilots from 65 to 74" tall. Now simulate a seated position for both short and tall pilots. Set the airplane to preference. (NOTE 99% of the pilots would set the airplane reference to be split by horizon line or close to it.)​
Observation: Now move seat and NOTE the difference moving seated position made. You can use different pilots or simulate it with one person.​
DATA: Measure angles and distance of eye to instrument, and noted change in AI pitch reference.​
Math: Trigonometry of parallax. Take the approx distance of the airplane (fixed) reference to face of moving gyro AI horizon and distance of eye to AI. Do the MATH... You will see parallax is small. AT NO TIME IN PAST OR REPRESENT OR EVER WAS PARALLAX 3 DEGREES... So stop saying Parallax. My G5 was not set up properly. The adjustment of pitch Ref was there and still there for pilot preferences. Regulations IMHO took this ability away needlessly for GA, which they copied from the Regs for transport category and military which had Glass well before GA.

Three points: I had with a badly adjusted G5, period, end of story. Parallax with analog gauges is irrelevant
1) Parallax with analog Vac/Elec AI's is small and irrelevant to my original question. Analog AI's have adjustable plane Ref, for preference. Most pilots will set it to indicate approx. level in level flight. I am sure there are exceptions. This is my OBSERVATION from flying as a CFI with 100's of pilots over the decades. This is fact.​
2) "Glass" PDF (Primary Flight Display) for EAB (expeerimental amature built) planes do not have to follow the Reg for certified planes. Therefore Garmin G5's for this market had pilot adjustable pitch (in flight from thee menu).​
3) Why do PFD's (primary flight display) or electronic AI's have this limit pilots can not easily adjust pitch Ref in certified GA planes? REEGULATIONS... That is it. Who are regulators? FAA, bureaucrats and lawyers. They are people who are smarter, better than we are and never make a mistakes. I am kidding. We are all human. Personally Regs are made to be interpreted and to be changed. Will they change it? Likely not, but then again there is NO NEED. After my research (not a waste of time) and this thread which is a waste of time, there is NOTHING keeping you from adjusting the PDF/AI to your preference if the installation per general AML-STC allows it. In the case of a generic non specific AML-STC to install a Garmin G5, you can adjust to "compensate for aerodynamics of aircraft".​
NOTE: A point no one argued, is it is important to set pitch Ref and LEAVE it alone, so follow pilots who memorized pitch + power settings have that benchmark to hang their hat on. Yes and No. Our club is small and everyone knows. One Owner/Pilot plane flown by one pilot no issue. However what about renting a plane with analog "steam" gauges that you others can adjust pitch Ref seated in plane any time? (Don't say parallax) You start engine and adjust it to what you want (preference) on the ground, making small adjustments in flight if/as needed. In the case of a C152 it SITS at a nose up attitude on the ramp with strut inflated properly, which is CLOSE to AOA for being level in flight. When maintenance installs a G5 in absolute level to ground attitude that would be nose down in flight. That is why you have to fly around 3 degrees nose up in flight for level. Why set pitch Ref to read level for a fairly sporty descent?

Glass that is CERTIFIED for a specific Air Transport Category has very specific calibration and adjustments that shall not be deviated from. There are manuals that are specific. The G5 is not super specific and further the experimental market version has pilot adjustable pitch reference ability. For the certified market, Garmin, made a software change, removed pitch adjustment from the menu pilots can access with unit booted up. You have to pwr down the G5 and re-boot it in program mode to make the pitch Ref change. It is not hard. It is THE SAME INSTRUMENT. When GLASS came to GA certified planes FAA copied Air Transport Regs. To comply with the Reg they did this small change. However for experimental non STC version they give PILOTS WHAT THEY WANTED, easily adjustable pitch Ref in flight. These are all facts.

In my RV7 or GRT Horizon Glass Cockpit I can do as I like (as long as it is safe, legal, reasonable). EAB (experimeental amature built) aircraft have more leeway in many areas.

However in the case of this club plane and trainer, which was my original question, out of respect and caution for legality, maintenance and good communications, I got all on board. I could have adjusted it myself, but I am a stickler for regulations, safety and good communications. It is not my plane. I pointed out what Garmin said (I talked to them) and what the manual says, as well as my justification for adjusting it. Done. The Club principles and maintenance were reasonable and not intransigent after we discussed it, unlike some people arguing get use to it ad nauseum. THE PILOT is the end user, If THE PILOT wants the attitude to be near level in level flight and instrument approach descents, it is safe, legal, than do it. Parallax? No. Get use to it? No.

Fancy Glass, HUD, FLIR, 2-Axis autopilot, irrelevant to training pilots to hand fly by sole reference to instruments. GA pilots (and a few air airline pilots) who fly around all day with autopilot in CMD from 400 ft after takeoff to 400 ft before landing, all the time, likely develop poor instrument flying skills. THIS is where I teach good scan, cross check, interpet, control, not relying on autopilots, glass and GPS alone. YES I teach LOC, VOR, DME and NDB. The latter two if only academically for the most part.

Before the peanut galley chimes in, it is required knowledge per INST ACS. DME is gone? Nope required at FL240 and above. NDB's are gone. Not in Canada, Arctic and sparsely populated lands abroad. NDB has long range (but affected by weather). You can tune in a high powered AM Radio (BCB) signal at night from 500 to 1000's of miles away. For all practical purposes NDB, VOR are going, at least to a minimum level Military uses DME or TACAN tactical air navigation system. You can fly in the USA IFR system with only a WASS GPS with RNP alone, nothing else. However GPS can go away for many reasons. Large jets have IRS systems and can fly autonomously without ground or GNSS navigation aids. This is why on Low Alt Enroute Charts airports have MON designation. Do you know what that means? Ans below: PS I get $60/hr dual given or work for food or tasty drinks.
VOR Minimum Operational Network. Again I get $60/hr in unmarked bills for giving dual instruction.
 
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Parallax is what you used the adjustment in a steam AI to compensate for people of different heights. There is no parallax in glass which is what @Ryan F. was pointing out. Think you totally missed his point.
 
there is NOTHING keeping you from adjusting the PDF/AI to your preference if the installation per general AML-STC allows it.
Which is exactly what you’re doing…adjusting it to YOUR preference.

Obviously many pilots here disagree with your preference for various reasons, all of which are just as valid as the reasons you have for your preference.
this thread which is a waste of time
So quit wasting your time. it makes you look like an idiot.
 
There are a few ways to deal with this. If it bothers you SO MUCH, either convince Garmin to change it.

Or pay them enough money to modify the STC for certificated aircraft to make it adjustable in flight.

Or buy it from someone other than Garmin

Or start your own avionics company and make your AI work the way you want it to. And then see if the world beats a path to your door because they agree with you.

Even if you were to convince everyone on POA of your point of view, it will NOT change how it works. Only Garmin can do that.
 
What Garmin said and why parallax matters.

"Older attitude indicators could be adjusted to compensate for parallax error based on the viewing angle of the pilot. Since the G5 is a digital screen, there is no parallax error"
At the risk of repeating my earlier post, this is what @Ryan F. said. The rest of his post was why an attitude indicator does not show 0 pitch in level flight.
 
What Garmin said and why parallax matters.

"Older attitude indicators could be adjusted to compensate for parallax error based on the viewing angle of the pilot. Since the G5 is a digital screen, there is no parallax error"
At the risk of repeating my earlier post, this is what @Ryan F. said. The rest of his post was why an attitude indicator does not show 0 pitch in level flight.

The fun thing is: the mechanical adjustment is to compensate for parallax, but it’s almost always used to adjust for zero during different flight regimes.

Now that you can’t use it that way, you just have to deal with it.
 
Ha ha yet you added. What does Parallax have to do with anything? Lets use scientific method, repeatable experiments, observation, d

ata and mathematics (with a closed form solution)

Parallax is not present in the display of "glass" which are CRT (yes CRT) to LCD. True. There could be off angle clarity issues but not parallax.
What others have said (and what I think you are implying) is that the G5 being 3 degrees nose up is OK, get use to it, somehow related to "parallax"? Wrong.

I have carefully read all of your replies to this thread. My conclusion upon doing so is as follows: you are simply confused and focused on validating your pre-determined outcome which is, regretfully, erroneous.

Many of us here at POA have extensive jet and advanced avionics experience. There is no need to call upon that to "prove" one's point. My post involving the HUD was just to demonstrate that aviation may be moving towards primary flight displays which show exactly what you want, a flight path vector, even at the exclusion of legacy single cue presentations. To my knowledge, this isn't yet available in light piston applications, but I'd be happy to be otherwise informed on that topic as I really do prefer the symbology. FPV and FPA are the way of the future depending on who you ask, and maybe someday in the relatively near or intermediate future "FPM" and "VS" will be replaced by "FPA" (flight path angle.) Whole 'nuther topic, sort of - but also, directly related.

I happen to own two copies of the hardware you're referencing. I purchased one of the first G5s available in early 2016 and worked with Garmin in a small user group to eliminate instrument errors relative to certain aircraft installations. The fact that these low cost, highly reliable instruments are proliferating in GA is wondrous indeed. Calibrating the instrument to show the proper attitude of the aircraft (at ANY phase of flight) is part of the process, and it appears you may have gotten hung up there and flung into a hall of mirrors, of sorts. If you're introducing the unit into service in a certified aircraft, this process must be accomplished either by or in concert with the installer. It cannot legally be "adjusted" or "fixed" by the pilot by adjusting user settings with the power button + knob press on unit boot up. Nor should it - that's indicative of some sort of installation problem which needs to be addressed.

The G5 ADI, if properly adjusted, will not indicate 0.0 NU in S&L cruise flight in any aircraft, including a C-152. The display resolution is sufficient to demonstrate *some* positive attitude in this common aircraft configuration. I am not commenting on a specific AOA, such as "3 degrees," per your posts. In my experience it will correctly register 1-2.5 degrees NU in most light piston airplanes in cruise flight.

I respectfully submit these inputs to the discussion.

All the best,
 
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