Zelle vs. Bank Draft

Magman

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Magman
Once sold an Aircraft and the Buyer paid with 3 personal checks. I waited until the Bank said they had cleared and then delivered the 172. A few days later I get a call from the Bank saying 1 check had not cleared the “ other end”. I was upset with the Bank but it all turned out well.

A discussion with new Banker today left me with the impression that Zelle is a better option than Bank Draft/Certified Check when selling an aircraft. Comments?
 
There are limits on how much you can transfer with Zelle. It's a good tool to send $100 to the kids piano teacher, I wouldn't use it for a large transaction.
Its like a fedwire in the sense that it's a one way street. Once it's sent, there is no way to claw it back. So if that money got misrouted, the bank just shrugs their shoulders.

Use of a legitimate escrow service guards against shenanigans with checks that don't clear.
 
Zelle has a ~2.5K/day limit so it might not be practical. If it is, have the person first send the minimum $5 payment. Once you confirm the transaction is correctly processed, then ask for balance. This doesn't solve the problem of little recourse w/ Zelle to recover misdirected payments, but it helps.
 
Another thought. If you decide to go the certified check route, have the sender give you the check number, bank and branch. Then you find the phone number for the branch and call an verify the check is real. It's too easy to fake certified checks these days. Years ago BofA had a batch of blank certified checks stolen. As a result, people were depositing BofA checks at BofA branches and the tellers were unaware and therefore didn't alert the customer.
 
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Another thought. If you decide to go the certified check route, have the sender give you the check number, bank and branch. Then you find the phone number for the branch and call an verify the check is real..
Real certified checks can still easily be clawed back for several weeks by payer. They just claim they lost the paper. Wire is only way to go for anything over $5K. While it can be clawed back too, it takes coordination by both banks and your bank will talk to you before they approve a wire-back. Such a claw-back is really only for obvious mistakes, not the payer claiming some sort of 'problem'.
 
Cash carried across state borders is the answer.
I thought it was supposed to be small unmarked bills in ziploc bags inside of backpack? But I'd have to go back to the other post. My cousin Karl makes side money by delivering bundles and taking a little each time. I keep telling him that's not a sustainable line of work.
 
Once sold an Aircraft and the Buyer paid with 3 personal checks. I waited until the Bank said they had cleared and then delivered the 172. A few days later I get a call from the Bank saying 1 check had not cleared the “ other end”. I was upset with the Bank but it all turned out well.

A discussion with new Banker today left me with the impression that Zelle is a better option than Bank Draft/Certified Check when selling an aircraft. Comments?

Let me tell you something you probably have learned the hard way. THERE IS NO PRACTICAL WAY FOR THE DEPOSITOR TO TELL IF A CHECK HAS CLEARED.
The banking system is set up to optimize the "normal" case. That is, it assumes the check is good. It may release cash to you on that assumption. If the funds are not there in the Drawee's account, it can take many weeks for that to catch up with you. If you're bank tells you otherwise, they didn't understand the question.

Certified funds are slightly more reliable. However, it's still possible to forge certified/cashiers checks, but its easier for someone with access to verify that what you are given is legitimate. ACH (electronic drafts) are usually equally safe.

Zelle/Paypal/Venmo etc... is NOT something I'd trust for more than a hundred bucks or so. These again are so weasel-worded that there's a high likely hood of the funds being sucked back without recourse.
 
Got to watch out for civil asset forfeiture when carrying much cash....

A friend of mine was carrying $60,000.00 in cash from NY to Ohio to purchase a car. Got stopped in Pennsylvania by the police. They seized the cash and refuse to give it back.
That was 6 years ago. He has won in every court of appeals, and still doesn't have his money.
 
There is not a better use case for digital currency than your example. Transfer 100s of thousands of dollars in minutes and you don't even need to leave your couch. Sending a bank wire works but you might have to wait until the bank sends it's daily wire and then wait for the other end to receive the wire. Why not just send bitcoin and be done in 15 minutes?
 
There is not a better use case for digital currency than your example. Transfer 100s of thousands of dollars in minutes and you don't even need to leave your couch. Sending a bank wire works but you might have to wait until the bank sends it's daily wire and then wait for the other end to receive the wire. Why not just send bitcoin and be done in 15 minutes?

Because Bitcoin and other crypto services generally have higher transaction fees and are subject to wild valuation swings.

ACH/Wires and escrow are the safest, with cashier's checks being the next best. You can normally call the issuing bank for a cashier's check to verify legitimacy. Remember, a cashier's check is already funded when it is created, so if it is non-fraudulent, the money has already been withdrawn from the account and is sitting in the banks' escrow.
 
There is not a better use case for digital currency than your example. Transfer 100s of thousands of dollars in minutes and you don't even need to leave your couch. Sending a bank wire works but you might have to wait until the bank sends it's daily wire and then wait for the other end to receive the wire. Why not just send bitcoin and be done in 15 minutes?

"Airplane? What Airplane?"
 
Green or Wire for amounts you're not willing to get scammed out of. Only.

I thought that ACH could be reversed?
 
I never heard of Zelle until a year ago. I did a PB and the Buyer asked if I would like a check when he got the airplane home in about a week. I was astonished to realize that folks travel around and obtain goods and services with what appeared to be no apparent way to pay for them.

Then he mentioned Zelle. My bud had used and was familiar with it so $$ went to him. Since then I’ve received $$ this way and it seems convenient. Everything has limits though.
 
A friend of mine was carrying $60,000.00 in cash from NY to Ohio to purchase a car. Got stopped in Pennsylvania by the police. They seized the cash and refuse to give it back.
That was 6 years ago. He has won in every court of appeals, and still doesn't have his money.
This is where hate comes from. And ulcers.
 
There are limits on how much you can transfer with Zelle. It's a good tool to send $100 to the kids piano teacher, I wouldn't use it for a large transaction.
Its like a fedwire in the sense that it's a one way street. Once it's sent, there is no way to claw it back. So if that money got misrouted, the bank just shrugs their shoulders.

That’s not true in all cases. In a former life I was the General Manager of the real estate arm of a major commercial lender. In one closing, our bank goofed and wired the money before they should have. (We had set up the wire with all the details ahead of time to save time at what was inevitably the end of the day). During the closing we hit a snag and we were unwilling to grant the terms of the borrower’s demands.

Then we were told by the borrower that it was a moot point as he had already received the money. We went ******** with our bank and somehow they reversed the transaction. The borrower was stunned and soon capitulated on the point in question.

So wires are not necessarily a one-way street.

The fact that this transaction was in excess of One Hundred Million Dollars…. and our bank was clearly liable for the mistake…. may have had something to do with this. Nevertheless, wire transfer clawbacks can happen!

-Skip
 
I thought it was supposed to be small unmarked bills in ziploc bags inside of backpack? But I'd have to go back to the other post. My cousin Karl makes side money by delivering bundles and taking a little each time. I keep telling him that's not a sustainable line of work.

What does unmarked mean? Are you going to check each note?
 
A friend of mine was carrying $60,000.00 in cash from NY to Ohio to purchase a car. Got stopped in Pennsylvania by the police. They seized the cash and refuse to give it back.
That was 6 years ago. He has won in every court of appeals, and still doesn't have his money.

On the asset forfeiture duscussion, the San Bernadino Sherriff in CA has determined they can hold up armored cars transporting cash between legal dispensaries and their bank as a "for profit" venture.

The armored car company has lost 5 truckloads of cash to this scheme. Sherriff's office keeps 80%.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/instit...forfeiture-makes-it-possible/?sh=2203bdae3851

https://www.ocregister.com/2022/02/04/how-california-deputies-became-highway-robbers/
 
Personal checks are worth the value and honesty of the person who wrote them.

Certified checks are worth the value and honesty of the bank who issued them.

Both can be faked and there is no way to know that a check has cleared or not. The bank makes the assumption and gives the person “credit” that will have to be repaid if the check is later not paid.

Lesson - do not accept checks. They suck and you bear the risk and responsibility.

If the dollar amount is high enough, I once redeposited a bank check from the bank who issued it, they put a 30 day hold on it and frankly they didn’t even want to deposit it. Had to get the manager involved and argue.

Bad players know the bank processing times and target businesses. We once had a customer order some services and they went to my bank and deposited a fake cashier check that was posted to my business account and it was an extra 5 figures so they called up pretending they made a mistake and wanted a refund for the overpaid amount. I responded with the F word, called the bank and reported it as fraud, even though they have the person walking into the bank on camera to commit this fraud no one cares. It later gets withdrawn from my account, thankfully with no fees otherwise I would have had a field day with the bank. I never approved that deposit, what a joke. I guess people could go around depositing fake checks into peoples accounts just so the bank charges the bank account holder a returned check fee. :confused:

Zelle is pretty safe with limits depending upon your bank they may be anywhere from $1000-$5000 per day.

PayPal - a scam. I got scammed with people issuing a refund but it was a “e-check” refund. PayPal sends the refund email and you think all is good. 2 weeks later the money is reversed due to the e-check refund being bad. PayPal doesn’t care. Anything can be reversed or disputed on PayPal and they have a 180 days buyer not happy full refund policy.

ACH is a push and grab system. Any business can open a bank account and take money from anyones bank account that they have the account number from. The bank works on an honor system until you abuse it enough that they revoke your privileges. Checks can have contracts attached to the bank, the bank holder and another party could have entered into a contract that allows for ACH grabs. Since most people cannot be bothered to read a contract before signing very easy to slip that clause in there. The person who has funds in the account will lose while the other party runs to another bank or withdraws their money then it is not refundable. There is an ACH clawback button on ACH payments that’s as easy as clicking a button on your online banking.

Wire - I am not sure about clawbacks. I have tried to claw a wire prior to the person receiving it without luck. The bank contacts the person to get permission for the refund. I’m guessing the transaction above might have had a contract attached to it. Wires at the big banks are typically processed sent and received within 15-30 minutes. Smaller banks or those using intermediaries need more time, you can call the bank and ask them to check it (basically they log on their online banking and check it and do their paperwork process).

Crypto, someone said it is expensive. There are many platforms that allow sending and receiving crypto for free. They do have limits so it is not useful for large transactions. I think you could count on sending 2-5k per day up to around 10k per week with monthly limits as well. There is about a 1-2% transaction fee to transfer fiat / USD to crypto. But given crypto right now has come down, if you are bullish on it, it will likely double in the near future.

Good ole cash. It’s king but you need to determine that each and every note is real and then not get robbed or encounter a police incident. If you got pulled over why was the police searching your car?!? Not a normal procedure.

Gold - same thing but easier to carry.

Back to checks, go to the bank they were written on, and ask for cash. Do not open a bank account. The teller checks the account has enough funds and gives you check, probably posting the check immediately. Unsure if the bank has any recourse should it later be disputed. The bank will surely ask you several times to open a bank account, you should decline. If you have a bank account then a check is cashed on assumption it is good and extending you credit terms. For larger amounts, banks will claim they do not have the funds and you’ll probably need to speak with the branch manager and make an appointment to withdraw the money, and the transaction will be reported to the IRS requesting your address and tax ID number. Usually a check cashing fee of $5-20 applies.
 
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I can't wait for them to start charging children's lunch money with purported crimes. We'll have a real Sheriffs of Nottingham situation....

If they get 80%, who gets the other 20?
 
I have run into limit problems with Zelle even on a $10K transaction...so while probably the safest way not always an option depending on the buyer/seller/bank limits.

Only time I accept a cashier's check is if I can accompany buyer to their bank and witness it being issued...or if you are all at the same bank you can do an account to account transfer in person.

...otherwise it is cash in hand (which comes with its own risks), wire, or escrow service initiated by me.
 
Yeah, but they're still in California. Lots and lots of things that shouldn't be corrupt are. That was my point, that's all. I know about those supposed "cops", and I'm pretty sure at this point they're more like highwaymen pretending to be cops.

Thing is, this is pretty much legal in almost all 50 states, although a few have started to pass legislation eliminating civil asset forfeiture. I think 4 have abolished it.
 
During the 70's, we basically bought used vehicles for cash all the time (not very expensive mind you). Couldn't do that today with asset forfeiture :(
 
Many consumer advocates advise strongly against Zelle (for example, Clark Howard). The reason? There are NO consumer protections if you get ripped off. The banks have repeatedly said "too bad". Venmo and CashApp aren't any better in this regard, but what makes Zelle even worse is that it's associated with the bank and tied directly to your bank account. Meaning all kinds of problems can occur. At least with the others there's at least a little bit of separation (or complete separation if you don't even have a bank account associated).

A discussion with new Banker today left me with the impression that Zelle is a better option than Bank Draft/Certified Check when selling an aircraft.

Yeah, I'll bet he did. The banks are really pushing Zelle.

Now, I do take Venmo for flight instruction, but I'm the receiver. There's little risk to the receiver. And in these transactions there's little risk to the sender, since after all, they did actually receive a non-returnable product (my time).
 
I use Zelle to send money to my daughters. Zelle is for person to person transfers where both parties trust each other. On the Zelle page of PNC Bank's web portal is this message:

Send Money to People You Know and Trust

i wouldn't use it when dealing with a stranger.
 
I use Zelle to send money to my daughters. Zelle is for person to person transfers where both parties trust each other. On the Zelle page of PNC Bank's web portal is this message:

Send Money to People You Know and Trust

i wouldn't use it when dealing with a stranger.

I mean it should be explained, Zelle transfers are final with no right to recovery. Make sure you are fully satisfied before transferring and no warranty or guarantee applies.
 
What does unmarked mean? Are you going to check each note?
Unmarked means no marks or invisible ink making it easy for LEO to trace.

Am I? No, I'll never touch the stuff - you will hand it off to a mule who will carry to an agent who will launder to make sure it's clean. :cool:
 
Thing is, this is pretty much legal in almost all 50 states, although a few have started to pass legislation eliminating civil asset forfeiture. I think 4 have abolished it.

But it’s not. And even though SCOTUS said civil asset forfeiture runs afoul of the 8th Amendment in Timbs,

https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/timbs-v-indiana/

It still took Timbs another 14-month legal battle to get the state to recognize that judgement and return his property

https://ij.org/press-release/14-mon...ctory-tyson-timbs-wins-civil-forfeiture-case/
 
That’s not true in all cases. In a former life I was the General Manager of the real estate arm of a major commercial lender. In one closing, our bank goofed and wired the money before they should have. (We had set up the wire with all the details ahead of time to save time at what was inevitably the end of the day). During the closing we hit a snag and we were unwilling to grant the terms of the borrower’s demands.

Then we were told by the borrower that it was a moot point as he had already received the money. We went ******** with our bank and somehow they reversed the transaction. The borrower was stunned and soon capitulated on the point in question.

So wires are not necessarily a one-way street.

The fact that this transaction was in excess of One Hundred Million Dollars…. and our bank was clearly liable for the mistake…. may have had something to do with this. Nevertheless, wire transfer clawbacks can happen!

-Skip

You are describing what happened what the bank did to rectify an internal error.

Lets say I wire $30,000 to importer A to order a container of widgets from china and 3 hours later I get a competing quote from importer B offering the widgets for $25,000. If I go back to the bank and tell them 'oh, my bad, please pull that money back from importer A', they are going to politely decline. Once the money is available in the recipients account, he can transfer it immediately to a different bank or cash it out if he wishes to do so. Banks and escrow companies treat money they received via wire as cash.
 
A friend of mine was carrying $60,000.00 in cash from NY to Ohio to purchase a car. Got stopped in Pennsylvania by the police. They seized the cash and refuse to give it back.
That was 6 years ago. He has won in every court of appeals, and still doesn't have his money.
Didnt your friend know only criminals have cash. Or is it that once enough cash collects in the same place at the same time the cash itself somehow becomes criminal even though your friend is not.

state sponsored theft. But cops are all good so there is nothing to see here…
 
But it’s not. And even though SCOTUS said civil asset forfeiture runs afoul of the 8th Amendment in Timbs,

https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/timbs-v-indiana/

It still took Timbs another 14-month legal battle to get the state to recognize that judgement and return his property

https://ij.org/press-release/14-mon...ctory-tyson-timbs-wins-civil-forfeiture-case/

Except it (the seizure) is. You have to sue and prove the money is "innocent" to get your money back, but the initial seizure is still completely allowed and it (as shown above) is still going on every day. That case does not cover everything CAF, it was very specific.
 
Seems to be a risk you take by engaging in an illegal business.

It's not illegal though. No one has been charged or convicted of anything. By extension you may as well claim that every bank should have all its assets seized, every Brinks truck on the road have its contents confiscated, because every single person who handled some of the money that goes through there can be simply accused of doing something illegal and that justifies the seizure. Not that they actually DID anything illegal.

"Empyreal Logistics provides secure cash transit for state-legal cannabis businesses."

I have no issue with asset forfeiture AFTER A CONVICTION has been made for the crime.
 
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It's not illegal though. No one has been charged or convicted of anything. By extension you may as well claim that every bank should have all its assets seized, every Brinks truck on the road have its contents confiscated, because every single person who handled some of the money that goes through there can be simply accused of doing something illegal and that justifies the seizure. Not that they actually DID anything illegal.

"Empyreal Logistics provides secure cash transit for state-legal cannabis businesses."

I have no issue with asset forfeiture AFTER A CONVICTION has been made for the crime.
There is no legal retail cannabis business in the United States. None anywhere. And in this particular case, the Sherriff's department, which has stated that 80% of the marijuana sold by dispensaries in the county is illegally grown, convinced a judge that the businesses weren't even complying with state laws:

[Judge] Holcomb said he is skeptical that Empyreal and its customers are in strict compliance with state medical marijuana laws.

As an example, he cited a declaration from Empyreal Chief Executive Officer Deirdra O’Gorman that “most” of the company’s cannabis-industry clients hold medical marijuana licenses.

“The word ‘most’ implies that some of Empyreal’s cannabis-industry clients do not hold medical cannabis licenses,” Holcomb said.

O’Gorman also testified that “three of the four” cannabis businesses whose cash were seized by the San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department have state-issued medical marijuana licenses.

“The court can only presume that the fourth business did not hold such a license,” Holcomb said. “Because Empyreal has not shown by a preponderance of evidence that it has strictly complied with California’s medical marijuana laws, it has not demonstrated that the federal Defendants’ actions were beyond their authority.”
https://www.sbsun.com/2022/02/02/ju...ot-proceeds-by-san-bernardino-county-sheriff/
I think we can agree that if you're in a highly regulated, maybe legal, maybe not business, you should keep good records.

And the opinion piece you quote, written by the director of media relations for Empyreal's law firm is not really an unbiased source. It's more like a press release:

Andrew Wimer
I am an Director of Media Relations at the Institute for Justice (IJ), a public interest law firm.
 
There is no legal retail cannabis business in the United States. None anywhere.

Odd because we have them ALL OVER Michigan, with big ol' billboards stating come on in.

Maybe your definition of legal is, well, your own, and there's no sense in even trying to discuss it.

Also , no charge or convictions - which you conveniently ignored. As expected.

And I didn't quote from the linked article.
 
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