Youtube Pilot and her dad perish in TN

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MauleSkinner said:
Let’s take that a step further… “Nobody” reads the owner’s manual for their car. Ford has figured that out, so they no longer provide an owner’s manual (based on a single data point—my FIL bought a new Lincoln that doesn’t have one.)

So how do you learn about your car? You watch YouTube.
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I suppose I’m an oddity, I’ve read the manual cover to cover for every vehicle I’ve ever owened.
 
Bill said:
I suppose I’m an oddity, I’ve read the manual cover to cover for every vehicle I’ve ever owened.
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I’m about 1/3 of the way through the one for my 2022 Tundra.

But there’s a significant amount of skimming. Mainly things like the multiple pages on infant car seats, plus I’d guess almost half of it is describing features my pretty basic SR5 doesn’t have. I think maybe 5 pages or so on the operation of the sunroof/moonroof, for example.

On airplanes, cover-to-cover used to be a lot easier.

8952196629_cca38cbe4d_z.jpg


And for the Cirrus, that was only one of several.
 
Bill said:
I suppose I’m an oddity, I’ve read the manual cover to cover for every vehicle I’ve ever owened.
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I'll say that I've seen quite a few people spend megabucks on avionics they have no clue how to use, and I've been stumped every time. I'm sure they RTM before, during, after flying with it, but they are still learning it "on the fly" teeheehee. the difference is they don't let something distract them to the point where they lose aircraft control. I've flown with people I feel 100% comfortable that if they said "hey, I got a new autopilot, I want to go shoot an approach and see if I understand this correctly, or try a few things out", and would have no concerns that if things weren't going as planned, they'd have the skills, or should I say common sense, to stop what they're doing in the name of safety. but I agree with you, if it was my plane or new equipment in that plane, of course I'd read the manual. as long as math wasn't involved.
 
Bill said:
I’m



I see your arguments, I’m just finding it very hard to grasp that someone could be that clueless. This is fairly simple stuff. I guess I’m at a loss here.
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I saw the video that most of us are talking bout, and the track is astounding. She's within sight of her departure runway and an Interstate running directly to her destination but is swerving and turning all over the sky talking not just about not going the right direction but evidently baffled as to WHY she keeps going the wrong direction. It's a disturbing video that to me doesn't look staged at all. I get the feeling she never had a chance to observe a competently run cockpit in the air. To see the calm, methodical handling of the flight systems, nailing the airspeeds and course corrections, engaging the appropriate navigational aids at the point where they are needed, monitoring the flight all the while and keeping an eye on traffic... I can actually understand a person being clueless if they have not had a chance to observe that kind of airmanship. And her CFI seems as lost as she is. In one clip, on his watch, they bust a fix by coming over 900 feet low. ON the radio he says "This is a training flight for a rating and I guess we came in a little low there..." What kind of professionalism is that? Students and inexperienced pilots need to see how a truly competent pilot operates.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Let’s take that a step further… “Nobody” reads the owner’s manual for their car. Ford has figured that out, so they no longer provide an owner’s manual (based on a single data point—my FIL bought a new Lincoln that doesn’t have one.)

So how do you learn about your car? You watch YouTube.
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New Lincolns do have owner's manuals, but they are not printed anymore, they are digital. You can access them from the screen. Pretty much all car manufactures are going that way. It’s nice in some ways. The search function is handy, but I do miss an actual printed copy.
 
AlphaMike said:
New Lincolns do have owner's manuals, but they are not printed anymore, they are digital. You can access them from the screen. Pretty much all car manufactures are going that way. It’s nice in some ways. The search function is handy, but I do miss an actual printed copy.
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I prefer a PDF for any law, standard, policy or instruction so I can ctrl-F and skim through hits. FARs, POHs, same thing. It’s no different than a printed manual, but I view it on multiple devices, store it locally or on the cloud, and read it away from the vehicle without later wondering where the heck I left it.
 
New Lexus vehicles come with a printed manual (several hundred pages) and quick guide (shows all buttons, lights, and controls) in the glovebox. Or you can review and email the pdf versions from a mobile device. It's a pretty good setup. What I usually do is print a few pages of the subject of interest. Additionally, Lexus will send a new set of manuals free to Lexus owners.
 
Piperonca said:
New Lexus vehicles come with a printed manual (several hundred pages) and quick guide (shows all buttons, lights, and controls) in the glovebox. Or you can review and email the pdf versions from a mobile device. It's a pretty good setup. What I usually do is print a few pages of the subject of interest. Additionally, Lexus will send a new set of manuals free to Lexus owners.
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My Frontier has a pretty stout manual (and a quick view version) that came with it. It can also be downloaded online. Dealer even sets up (if you like) a session where they will walk you through all the features on the vehicle and answer questions.

I tend to read about the parts I don't understand and explore a bit to see what all the new stuff is. Most of it is pretty simple to figure out but with all the new radar detection, image recognition, safety features, creature comforts, and what they call the convience package, there are a few things that you push the button just to see what it does ... :dunno:
 
FastEddieB said:
I’m about 1/3 of the way through the one for my 2022 Tundra.

But there’s a significant amount of skimming. Mainly things like the multiple pages on infant car seats, plus I’d guess almost half of it is describing features my pretty basic SR5 doesn’t have. I think maybe 5 pages or so on the operation of the sunroof/moonroof, for example.

On airplanes, cover-to-cover used to be a lot easier.

8952196629_cca38cbe4d_z.jpg


And for the Cirrus, that was only one of several.
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I wonder how much of the thickness in the SR22 manual is due solely to CYA liability protections for Cirrus Corp :D
 
FastEddieB said:
I’m about 1/3 of the way through the one for my 2022 Tundra.

But there’s a significant amount of skimming. Mainly things like the multiple pages on infant car seats, plus I’d guess almost half of it is describing features my pretty basic SR5 doesn’t have. I think maybe 5 pages or so on the operation of the sunroof/moonroof, for example.

On airplanes, cover-to-cover used to be a lot easier.

8952196629_cca38cbe4d_z.jpg


And for the Cirrus, that was only one of several.
Click to expand...


And it's not just the planes. Even the operating manual for my little Yaesu handheld radio is 96 pages long and comes with a quick-reference guide.

Add up all the documenation for my handheld radio (which I use for COM2), my Garmin COM1 radio, my audio panel, my transponder, and my GPS (iFly 740b), and you have a pretty impressive stack. With few controls on the front of the hardware, there are nested menus so knobs and buttons take on different functions in different modes, and even simple-seeming devices have considerable complexity. There are certain functions I will only do on the ground, of course, like labeling frequencies for the radio memory or programming the sidetone level, so I can take the time to look them up and don't have to memorize them.

Even our simple old aircraft have become complex and sophisticated with the avionics, including portable stuff, that we can add.

Last year I went through all the manuals and made copies of the quick reference guides plus the pages I frequently need, and I also wrote up my own notes. I used that to make a small handbook that I keep in the cockpit because it's impossible to memorize it all.
 
If I am flying a new to me aircraft it is my responsibility as pilot in command to learn how everything installed on the aircraft works.

As a flight instructor I feel it is important that I understand how everything works so I can evaluate my learner and help her understand.

It appears to me her flight instructor had no idea how the autopilot worked.

I feel that reading a manual for an automobile and reading how a autopilot works are two very different things.

If she were my learner I would assign her homework to read and understand the autopilot manual.

Part of my preparation for her next lesson would be to learn all about the autopilot so I could make sure she understood how the autopilot worked.
 
Vance Breese said:
If I am flying a new to me aircraft it is my responsibility as pilot in command to learn how everything installed on the aircraft works.

As a flight instructor I feel it is important that I understand how everything works so I can evaluate my learner and help her understand.

It appears to me her flight instructor had no idea how the autopilot worked.

I feel that reading a manual for an automobile and reading how a autopilot works are two very different things.

If she were my learner I would assign her homework to read and understand the autopilot manual.

Part of my preparation for her next lesson would be to learn all about the autopilot so I could make sure she understood how the autopilot worked.
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Years ago I had a couple of guys approach me for Baron checkouts.

Me: “No problem, I can teach you the Baron, but I have no idea about that Garmin 430.”

Them: “That’s ok, I know all about it, I got my instrument rating in an airplane with a 430.”

Well, guess what? He could go Direct To and load an approach. Had no clue how to get the 430 into a missed approach, or pretty much anything else the thing did. I had to learn the system so I could teach him what he claimed he already knew.
 
The plane that I fly has a similar century AP and the first thing I did was to download the manual of the AP and the second was to learn how to shut it off. I don't use it because it has problems in tracking and randomly shutting off. I am partial to paper tbh and it sucked when my yearly conference proceedings went digital instead of paper but that's the way life goes.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Yeah, but to investigate zero incidents ever would be the same as no threat of ever enforcing anything with respect to certification. Unrealistic. If that were the case, I could print my own cert and start training. Yeah, not that extreme, but you can start to see why that’s not possible. They gotta look into some cases sometimes to some extent. This one might be one of those.
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This. Obviously if there is a pattern of pilot errors associated with the same CFI's/DPE's then it would benefit us all if the feedback loop is closed and the deficiencies in instruction/evaluation remedied. I'm not saying that's easy (or the case here) but that is standard practice in plenty of other professions.
 
Hengelo said:
This. Obviously if there is a pattern of pilot errors associated with the same CFI's/DPE's then it would benefit us all if the feedback loop is closed and the deficiencies in instruction/evaluation remedied. I'm not saying that's easy (or the case here) but that is standard practice in plenty of other professions.
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The FAA will look at a CFI who has too low a pass rate for checkride recommendations (I don’t know what that rate is, but there was recently something about an instructor with less than a 60% pass rate that would trigger a look.) There has to be something like an accident that brings it to their attention.

DPE pass rates are monitored more actively.

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your perspective, a pilot has to make a pretty egregious mistake in order to come to the attention of the FAA, so even if a particular instructor or examiner was letting low performance pass through, it’s unlikely that it would come to the attention of the FAA as a trend.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Let’s take that a step further… “Nobody” reads the owner’s manual for their car. Ford has figured that out, so they no longer provide an owner’s manual (based on a single data point—my FIL bought a new Lincoln that doesn’t have one.)

So how do you learn about your car? You watch YouTube.
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My new Subaru came with a box of manuals. And you can download electronic versions (PDFs) online. You can find out a lot by reading the documentation. If you want to find out how to do something, it's in the manual.
 
Not to go on another tangent but I think what I have seen over the many years that I have been alive is the inability to solve problems or even figure out how to go about finding answers for problems. I do think that this touches on the car manuals. I was driving one day and I noticed a light come on that I haven't noticed before. The first thing I did was go to the manual and sure enough the answer is there. The answer to pretty much everything is in the palm of your hand with the internet. But instead I see questions asked all the time that can be solved by searching. I like to explain to my 11 yr old that back in the day when we needed to know something we had to go to these large buildings called "libraries" to get answers. People are just clueless today.
 
I'm going to bet that most folks posting on this site, when flying their plane with new avionics (GPS, Autopilot, electronic gyros, etc.), took up their plane in VFR conditions to figure out how to make the equipment do what it is supposed to do. And probably gathered some information about how to operate the equipment before proceeding. Anyone owning a GNS-430, G5, or an autopilot has to learn a lot of configuration and button-pushing skills to not look like an idiot when using them. Or on a VFR day just follow the roads. I still have a cheat sheet in my plane for some common GNS-430 tasks that have easily confused buttonology, e.g. Direct-Direct-Enter instead of Direct-Enter-Enter.
 
chemgeek said:
I'm going to bet that most folks posting on this site, when flying their plane with new avionics (GPS, Autopilot, electronic gyros, etc.), took up their plane in VFR conditions to figure out how to make the equipment do what it is supposed to do. And probably gathered some information about how to operate the equipment before proceeding. Anyone owning a GNS-430, G5, or an autopilot has to learn a lot of configuration and button-pushing skills to not look like an idiot when using them. Or on a VFR day just follow the roads. I still have a cheat sheet in my plane for some common GNS-430 tasks that have easily confused buttonology, e.g. Direct-Direct-Enter instead of Direct-Enter-Enter.
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And having a good familiarity with the actual logic of the unit controls and the flow of the UI, as opposed to just memorizing the button presses to perform a common task. That's especially important for transitioning to an EFIS where the button functions may change from screen to screen, or where you may inadvertently get a few levels deep in a menu and need to get back out.

It's the same as simply writing down and memorizing radio calls instead of actually learning the situational logic so that you can adapt to changing demands.
 
dmspilot said:
I got some videos before they were taken down and made an analysis of one. Watch before the copyright police lodge a complaint.
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Good work commenting and presenting that.

Got lost and flew circles in sight of the airport? That's a mental case, and questionable for a solo, much less PPL. Last one of these videos I can bear to watch, but thank you for making it part of the record. I hope certain people in the aviation training and oversight business learn from this worst case example.
 
chemgeek said:
I'm going to bet that most folks posting on this site, when flying their plane with new avionics (GPS, Autopilot, electronic gyros, etc.), took up their plane in VFR conditions to figure out how to make the equipment do what it is supposed to do.
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I fly an experimental and installed a Trio AP a couple of years ago. The first order of business before ever flying the thing is to have several ways of turning it off and having the will to do so as soon as it does something unusual.

I have loaded it incorrectly, at least once, and had to disengage it, fly the airplane, figure out where I went wrong, fix my error, and restart the AP. When in doubt I just leave it off and fly the plane. An AP should be something you want to have but don't need to have ...
 
Daleandee said:
I fly an experimental and installed a Trio AP a couple of years ago. The first order of business before ever flying the thing is to have several ways of turning it off and having the will to do so as soon as it does something unusual.

I have loaded it incorrectly, at least once, and had to disengage it, fly the airplane, figure out where I went wrong, fix my error, and restart the AP. When in doubt I just leave it off and fly the plane. An AP should be something you want to have but don't need to have ...
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Sad part is the Century 2000 autopilot manual is a couple dozen pages, and most of them are different variations of the same preflight check for different configurations. It would have taken less than 20 minutes to read it.
 
Most car manuals nowadays could be reduced to about a dozen pages if you take out all the warnings about not drinking the battery acid and to not close your hand in the door. But then...as alluded to before, "are people really that stupid?" Have you met the average American?
 
francisco collazos said:
People are just clueless today.
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"Today" has nothing to do with it. I'm currently camped in my mother's driveway in a 55+ community to do some work on her place. I meet a dozen new people each day from their 60's through 90. Unless by "today" you mean Boomers, I'm here to tell you inability to reason isn't generational. Nice people, but they aren't exactly going to be inventing cold fusion.
 
KE5BM said:
Most car manuals nowadays could be reduced to about a dozen pages if you take out all the warnings about not drinking the battery acid and to not close your hand in the door. But then...as alluded to before, "are people really that stupid?" Have you met the average American?
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Yes they are that stupid. And then they sue because the manual didn't tell them to not do that.

I remember looking at the manual for a new pistol. Inside front cover in BOLD black on an orange back ground. "Warning, manipulating the trigger may cause a bullet to be expelled at high velocity that could injure or kill a person or damage or destroy items."

Well DUH. I hope so. That is what is supposed to do.
 
When my son was 5, he wanted to be a knight for Halloween. So we got him a costume that included a flimsy plastic sword and a flimsy plastic shield.

Molded into the back of the flimsy toy shield were the words: "Warning! Not a Protective Device."
 
Bought a (about ANYTHING these days), from (about ANYWHERE these days), that came with a manual saying it’s supposed to do (WHATEVER it was named), so be careful.

BWAHAHAHA
BWAHAHAHAHA
BWAHAHAHAHAHA

(Wiping tears of laughter from eyes), ya right, good one!

Tools (with a different perspective)*

*with a nod and tip of a hat to Nauga
 
KE5BM said:
Most car manuals nowadays could be reduced to about a dozen pages if you take out all the warnings about not drinking the battery acid and to not close your hand in the door. But then...as alluded to before, "are people really that stupid?" Have you met the average American?
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Not drinking battery acid? They haven’t even made cars that use an unsealed battery for 20 years. Other than golf carts and some airplanes, is there anything that uses them? Heck, AGM amd LiFePo batteries have been out there for certified aircraft for a long time.
 
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