Young pilot dies after takeoff trouble - Cessna 152

[flyingron]

It's also interesting he got off the ground at all with full flaps. I learned in a 152 and did my checkride in one. Our school banned student solo touch-and-goes, so I'd always done full stops on my own practicing. With the instructor along, we did often do touch and goes. What I hadn't realized during my training was the instructor would raise the flaps on the touch and goes as I added power. I never had a problem on solo because I always did full stops (and did the checklist to retract them after landing).

On my checkride, the examiner had me do a touch and go. I put full power in prior to attempting to raise the flaps. In the 152, that will tend to take the weight off the mains immediately so you're flying a unicycle. I careened toward the edge of the runway. We cycled around for a different landing (soft field / short field or something) and again on the go I started for the edge of the runway but managed to keep it tracking fairly straight.

After the ride, not certain if I passed, the examiner suggested it would be better to hit the flaps to the retract position first and then push in the throttle. He suggested I go out and do some touch and goes and practice that. I said that we weren't permitted to do them solo. He said that was only for student pilots, I had my private now. It's the first indication I had that I had passed.

 

[Huckster79]

Not a big fan of habitually using full flaps. Leave a notch or two in reserve unless you really need it, and learn to slip.

this above!

 

[Daleandee]

Years ago I made the error of leaving the flaps down in a take-off. I actually could feel the aerodynamic effect on the plane as the speed built up before I reached rotation speed. I quickly pulled the throttle to idle and aborted the take-off. I then went back to the ramp to get my act together before departing again ...

 

[Clip4]

Probably should restrict them from takeoffs also. Just to be safe.

hopefully before you obtain a CFI certificate someone explains to you the process is about safety and migrating risk and not the students freedom of choices.

 

[Jackk]

CFIs, take this as a learning moment, this is why you should restrict your students to no touch and go.

If my student can’t be trusted to do a touch and go, or a go around, he’s not ready to solo.

hopefully before you obtain a CFI certificate someone explains to you the process is about safety and migrating risk and not the students freedom of choices.

Safest thing would be for them to never leave their home.

 

[Dan Thomas]

One of the most unnatural things you need to do when slow and running out of options near the ground is resist the urge to pull the nose up. Pulling the nose up when behind the power curve and/or near stall can turn into a death sentence. Lots of slow flight helps drive this lesson home, especially if you do it for a bit, then pull into a stall.

And the airplane's nose attitude will be lower in a stall with full flaps. It can deceive the pilot into thinking he's above the stall.

Cessna forbids intentional spins with flaps extended. It hampers recovery. The way that airplane appears to have hit the ground suggests a stall/spin.

 

[Clip4]

If my student can’t be trusted to do a touch and go, or a go around, he’s not ready to solo.



Safest thing would be for them to never leave their home.

Students are students. They are learning and learn by making mistakes. It a whole lot safer for the student to learn the mistake of forgetting to retract the flaps after landing running a takeoff checklist than running in the trees on the departure end.

 

[Jackk]

Students are students. They are learning and learn by making mistakes. It a whole lot safer for the student to learn the mistake of forgetting to retract the flaps after landing running a takeoff checklist than running in the trees on the departure end.

It’s safer to refuse to teach them to fly, golf is a much safer idea, but only with proper safety gear like a full face helmet for the golf balls.

I think aviation has already been dumbed down enough as it is.

 

[dmspilot]

It's also interesting he got off the ground at all with full flaps.

It definitely will, in fact the aircraft will become airborne at a very low speed, behind the power curve, and will unlikely to be able to climb out of ground effect. You then have two choices, either land or treat it like a slow flight recovery/go-around. It looks like this student might have retracted the flaps all at once, judging by how quickly the situation went from announcing that he forgot them to smoking hole.

Students that practice touch-and-goes can easily develop an automatic response of retracting the flaps all at once. Go-around practice is very important for that reason (as well as other, more obvious reasons). Too many people think that a perfect flare is all that stands between a student and a first solo, when that is just not true. The FARs have an extensive list of maneuvers the student is supposed to be proficient at before solo. I also see go-arounds as a very common weak area during flight reviews for experienced pilots.

 

[bbchien]

Checklists, please. USE the checklist.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I almost made the mistake of taking off with full flaps in a 152 during my first solo. Airport was switching runways and I was out of my usual routine, trying to clear runway for opposite traffic.
Fortunately I had a minute before next takeoff and discovered it during my flow check.

 

[Jackk]

Checklists, please. USE the checklist.

On a go around?

Memory items and flow for single crew.

 

[Zeldman]

Years ago In Alaska I was doing IOE in a C-207 with a new to the company pilot. We landed at a village, and the flaps would not come up.

Long story short, ferry permit in hand, we took off with full flaps and flew back to base. No problem, except a little slower than the normal slow sled flies...

 

[flyingron]

Years ago I made the error of leaving the flaps down in a take-off. I actually could feel the aerodynamic effect on the plane as the speed built up before I reached rotation speed. I quickly pulled the throttle to idle and aborted the take-off. I then went back to the ramp to get my act together before departing again ...

I found that the ground roll is very short on a Navion with full flaps. It leaps into the air at a very slow speed. It won't climb worth crap though (and Navion flaps are slower than 172s at retracting).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

This crash was local to me. I used to work the line at that airport and I've fueled that airplane (long ago). I used to be based there. I know a lot of people who have worked there.

I found out about it within a half hour of it happening, and immediately dug up all the information I could - ATC recordings, weather, ADS-B data, etc.

This is obviously unfortunate all the way around - An 18-year-old aspiring pilot is dead - but the amount of misinformation I've seen going around is ridiculous, and the "journalism" displayed by the local media in the aftermath is downright irresponsible.

So, here's the things that are verifiable or that I've heard from multiple sources:
The pilot was on his *second* solo flight, not his first, and he was a student pilot.
The flight school does not allow solo students to do touch and goes... But this crash happened on his second trip around the pattern, after a touch and go.
The pilot reported engine failure on the radio and was frantic and said he didn't know what to do, but a few seconds later in a much calmer tone of voice said that he just put his flaps up.
He crossed the airport boundary at only a couple hundred feet AGL with a ground speed in the low 30s. Winds were light, around 7 knots IIRC.
Multiple pilot witnesses saw the plane stall and spin, and the plane crashed in a very small back yard with no damage to surrounding buildings or trees.

Things I've only heard from one source:
His first solo was two weeks prior to the crash, and he had not flown in between.
He had two separate flight instructors at a different airport (same flight school, different facility) that did not sign him off to solo because of hazardous attitudes.
Because the flight school doesn't allow solo students to do touch and goes, the instructor(s) are often the ones who clean up the plane when they're doing T&Gs during dual.
The kid's parents were in the parking lot watching the whole thing.

So, it's probably pretty clear to most of us what happened here.

Unfortunately, the local media, aided by a "commercial pilot and flight instructor" who is really just a vulture, have gone after the flight school big-time, with inaccurate information. They apparently were able to get TTAF numbers off the web for the flight school's airplanes, said those were the TBO numbers, and ran a story about how bad the maintenance is at the flight school. It's not - I've had a lot of work done on my plane and club planes in their shop over the years and they're well above average in terms of quality of work.

Who is this Robert Katz guy, and what's his deal? If you google "Robert Katz crash" you'll see that he's quoted in "news" stories all over the country about plane crashes. Is he getting paid by "news" organizations or what?

 

[Hang 4]

Who is this Robert Katz guy, and what's his deal? If you google "Robert Katz crash" you'll see that he's quoted in "news" stories all over the country about plane crashes. Is he getting paid by "news" organizations or what?

Ambulance chasing lawyer. Sticks his nose in stuff like this with lazy journalists that consider him an expert to taint the jury pool when he figures out who has some deep pockets. https://www.robertnkatz.com/aviation-accident.html

 

[Daleandee]

Thanks for filling in some of the blanks. There are a few things that are extremely hard to read ...

The kid's parents were in the parking lot watching the whole thing.

If you google "Robert Katz crash" you'll see that he's quoted in "news" stories all over the country about plane crashes.

Google blew up on this guy ... I can't give my thoughts as I be banned ...

 

[PaulS]

That's terrible, why does aviation attract so many people who insist on doing stuff they are not supposed to be doing? RIP.

 

[dmspilot]

His first solo was two weeks prior to the crash, and he had not flown in between.
He had two separate flight instructors at a different airport (same flight school, different facility) that did not sign him off to solo because of hazardous attitudes.

Well, if that's true, that would be enlightening, and explain the >40+ hours to solo. Hazardous attitudes, and disobeying flight school rules, would seem to relieve some of the instructor's responsibility, and place it more on the student.

the instructor(s) are often the ones who clean up the plane when they're doing T&Gs during dual.

That is stupid. I don't care what the student is allowed to do or not allowed to do. The instructors are supposed to be teaching, not doing the student's job for them. The student is seeking a PPL, not a multicrew license.

 

[SebIp]

His 2nd solo? I have soloed 3 time at this point. And we do touch and goes at our training units up till the municipality decided they don't want flight school and the noise and slapped a per touch fee on commercial planes. Since I now fly my own AC, I am one of the few still doing T&G. Before I was ready to solo I was pass to another instructor to do a check, and then the day of my own instructor did his final check ride with me before letting me lose.

Do I think about the flaps can carb heat? It seems so natural for me now that I don't specifically and consciously think about flaps and carb heat. It is also quite different from the flight school 172 where the heat is on on approach and the piper where you do a check on downwind.

I think I'll make it a point to read out the steps for myself going forward even with it being mostly muscle memory now.

 

[benyflyguy]

Even practicing the low approach and go around is helpful here. My CFI glued in hard flaps up on touchdown and yoke stays into the wind.
Once I decided to go around at smoketown and firewalled the power and heat in a 182 and didn’t bring up the flaps. Between flaps and trimmed for landing that nose came up fast and I pushed forward but watched the airspeed bleed off fast and just about stalled it until I got retrimmed and took in the flaps slowly. Valuable lesson that lays in my mind on every approach now. Recite the plan on go every short final.

 

[Dan Thomas]

We operated the school off a 3000-foot runway. We had some close calls with T&Gs so we disallowed them. We also found that loss-of-control usually happened in the latter part of the ground roll, and T&Gs don't teach the student to fly thing to a standstill. Crosswind problems, in particular, often show up at the lower-speed end of the landing.

And then there's the flap-up habit soon after touchdown. That can get the student in trouble later on when he graduates to a retractable. There were several such wrecks in a nearby city when students there grabbed the wrong lever and retracted the gear. One of our instructors barely saved the day when checking out a pilot from elsewhere on our R182; the guy flipped the gear handle up right after touchdown, and the pump was instantly running. Our guy yanked the yoke back and slammed the gear lever back down. An R182's nosewheel will retract instantly as soon as it unlocks. Many AMUs to buy a new engine and prop and fix the structural damage.

Transport Canada told us that most training-airplane accidents happened during touch-and-goes.

 

[Randomskylane]

The value of t and g is saving ~5 minutes of taxiing
Gasoline or rental cost
CFI time (cost)
Brake wear
Keeping air flowing through the cabin on a hot day

cons
I hate them because (see rest of thread)

Does anyone here do them after ppl without cfi suggesting it? I can’t remember doing one in 40 years of off and on flying. Am I rare or the norm?

 

[PaulS]

The value of t and g is saving ~5 minutes of taxiing
Gasoline or rental cost
CFI time (cost)
Brake wear
Keeping air flowing through the cabin on a hot day

cons
I hate them because (see rest of thread)

Does anyone here do them after ppl without cfi suggesting it? I can’t remember doing one in 40 years of off and on flying. Am I rare or the norm?

I do them when I'm not just going from point a to point b. Generally pretty often. My personal limit is 4000 feet of runway (SR 22) when solo. I've done them on much shorter runways with an instructor next to me though in the 22.

 

[Salty]

The value of t and g is saving ~5 minutes of taxiing
Gasoline or rental cost
CFI time (cost)
Brake wear
Keeping air flowing through the cabin on a hot day

cons
I hate them because (see rest of thread)

Does anyone here do them after ppl without cfi suggesting it? I can’t remember doing one in 40 years of off and on flying. Am I rare or the norm?

You missed engine cooling. T & G is much better on the engine.

 

[Dan Thomas]

You missed engine cooling. T & G is much better on the engine.

Never had heating problems with stop/backtack/takeoff circuits. Ever.

And on a 3000-foot small-town strip there's no five minutes lost, either.

I'd rather be replacing brakes a bit more often than rebuilding busted airplanes. So would the students; we had several landing accidents that took the airplane out of service for months. With a fleet of only seven airplanes, that wrecks the training schedule in a college-based program, and does the bottom line no good at all, too.

 

[Salty]

Never had heating problems with stop/backtack/takeoff circuits. Ever.

And on a 3000-foot small-town strip there's no five minutes lost, either.

I'd rather be replacing brakes a bit more often than rebuilding busted airplanes. So would the students; we had several landing accidents that took the airplane out of service for months. With a fleet of only seven airplanes, that wrecks the training schedule in a college-based program, and does the bottom line no good at all, too.

Then you are lucky. My Mooney would cook if sitting on the ground for a long time. And there's always some idiot making a simple taxi-back-takeoff turn into watching a clown show getting lost, not following instructions etc, and blocking your way.

 

[jesse]

I damn near bit it as an instructor because of stuck flaps in a 150.

Student had full flaps down in a 150, made a terrible approach that was way too long and didn't give them the runway they needed to land. They decided to go-around (good decision). It was during the go-around that we discovered the flaps wouldn't come up, nor would the airplane climb out of ground effect, nor was there runway to land, and we were headed straight for the Kawasaki factory... This was probably the only time I ever "took the controls" from the student. Had to very carefully drag that ****er around to another runway with the stall warning blaring, the wings rocking on the edge of the stall, and the wheels barely clearing buildings.

Had the above occurred with a student on their first solo, there is a very damn good chance they would have been killed. I was glad I was in the plane that day. I also quit flying in that particular airplane after that.

I had another incident in a 172 where one flap retracted, and the other completely mangled and twisted itself up into a mess of busted aluminum on the wing. In that case, I had the student keep on flying it and land it. He said it was really wing heavy, but there was good control throughout the flight envelope still.

 

[Dan Thomas]

The flap retraction failure risk was another reason we didn't do t&g's.

We also had a 172 crunch a flap and cause a bunch of structural damage. Shortly after that Cessna issued an SB on it. The flap rollers consist of a Torrington needle bearing with a thin steel sleeve pressed onto it. That sleeve works its way off the roller and starts cutting into the flap support arms, until a disc of aluminum punches out and the roller cocks and jams and the flap motor forcibly pulls the flap and twists it and tries to tear the flap tracks off the wing spar. I modified all our Cessnas with McFarlane's roller and washer kits after I found incipient damage as per the SB.

 

[frfly172]

Very sad ,touch and goes are not as easy as believed for a new or student pilot. A lot going on in a short time.

 

[Zeldman]

Picture this if you will....



You are on a cross country, in a retract, and have been in the air for 3 hours. The day started at sunup with the 3 hour outbound flight, followed by a long day of boring and barely productive meetings. Getting close to the home airport right at sunset. You are feeling glad the long day is almost over, you can almost feel the cold (insert favorite beverage here) in your hand. As you are in the pattern, the gear goes down and three greens appear. On very short final, over the numbers a little fast resulting in floating half way down the runway. No problem, you can stop in the last 2500 feet.

All three wheels are on the ground, toes on the brakes which go straight to the floor, sorta like stepping on a ripe plum. A quick few pumps and still no brakes. It is the absolute last moment to either go around or run off the end of the runway.

But wait, your instructor never did T&Gs with you because he said they had no value in training.....

This scenario happened to me years ago except it happened while I was giving a BFR in an Arrow. It was an early model Arrow without brakes on the passenger side. The owner of the plane came in fast as he usually does, because he says he feels like he has more control. He doesn't like slow flight as in slowing down for landing because the controls feel sluggish. Well, duh... that is one reason we learn slow flight.

You do pump the brakes a few times before landing, right.??

 

[exncsurfer]

The value of t and g is saving ~5 minutes of taxiing
Gasoline or rental cost
CFI time (cost)
Brake wear
Keeping air flowing through the cabin on a hot day

cons
I hate them because (see rest of thread)

Does anyone here do them after ppl without cfi suggesting it? I can’t remember doing one in 40 years of off and on flying. Am I rare or the norm?

I still do them. I don't get to fly that often so I like to do 3 to 6 landings when I get the chance. Sometimes if you want to stay in the pattern and its busy ATC will only approve a T&G, they need you out of the way. Sometimes I also get 'low approach only' or 'touch and go only' from ATC due to traffic. If they don't care they'll clear you for the option.

I know you can just go around if you don't want it, but I don't have any reservations in doing T&G vs stop go or taxi back.(on an 8000 ft. runway)

 

[PaulS]

Picture this if you will....
View attachment 107425


He doesn't like slow flight as in slowing down for landing because the controls feel sluggish. Well, duh... that is one reason we learn slow flight.

You do pump the brakes a few times before landing, right.??

That's pretty dumb, kind of like boat drivers who speed up to maintain control in a current.

And yes I do test the brakes before landing.

 

[MauleSkinner]

You do pump the brakes a few times before landing, right.??

Doesn’t do anything in my airplane.

On very short final, over the numbers a little fast resulting in floating half way down the runway. No problem, you can stop in the last 2500 feet.

on the other hand, this is the most common reason for hull losses in my airplane.

 

[exncsurfer]

Doesn’t do anything in my airplane.

on the other hand, this is the most common reason for hull losses in my airplane.

Floats?

 

[Albany Tom]

Picture this if you will....
...
This scenario happened to me years ago except it happened while I was giving a BFR in an Arrow. It was an early model Arrow without brakes on the passenger side. The owner of the plane came in fast as he usually does, because he says he feels like he has more control. He doesn't like slow flight as in slowing down for landing because the controls feel sluggish. Well, duh... that is one reason we learn slow flight.
...

I have two takeaways from this. First, CFI's put their life into the hands of nuts way too often. Second, how did that guy get a license? Where I fly from, if you float an Arrow 2000' down the field, you're going to wreck the aircraft. Because you either have about 300' to clear 100' of trees, or the same distance to stop from a speed of at least 50 knots, and it won't do either. I think luck had way more to do with the survival than anything else.

Very glad you made it. Don't all Arrows also have a hydraulic hand brake, though? I'll admit I've never tried to use that from the right seat, but it is my go-to if the runway is wet.

 

[Whitney]

I solo’d at a Class D field. My CFI was on the ramp watching with a handheld.

Same with me, short dirt strip, my instructor stood out there with a handheld radio giving me encouragement, and advice, as I did 7 touch and goes, and a full stop landing on my first solo. Before I took off, she also reminded me that it was just fine to abort a planned touch and go either still at altitude, or once on the ground by braking to a stop. To this day I feel very blessed for having a great instructor. There was no school with multiple employees that I attended like most do.
It was one amazing woman, and she had a citabria. You could learn in her plane, or your own. I did 95% of my flight training in my own Warrior.

 

[Whitney]

hopefully before you obtain a CFI certificate someone explains to you the process is about safety and migrating risk and not the students freedom of choices.

I suggest quitting their job, wrapping up in 60 layers of bubble wrap, eat only salads, use no sharp knives, don't leave the house, and definitely do not shower...showers are notoriously dangerous for slip and falls.

 

[DaleB]

As a student pilot, I did a LOT of T&G.

I don’t think I’ve ever flown something that just flat wouldn’t climb with full flaps. Cherokees, 172s, RV-12. If the plane I was flying was not capable of climbing out of ground effect with full flaps, I don’t know that I’d ever use full flaps. But that’s just me.

I don’t do touch & go landings any more. I don’t see a reason to. I have done the occasional stop & go, because the 12 can get off the ground pretty quickly. Even so, I probably will stop that as well, for the same reason I don’t do intersection takeoffs… if something does go wrong, I don’t want to look too stupid in the NTSB report.

 

[Daleandee]

I probably will stop that as well, for the same reason I don’t do intersection takeoffs… if something does go wrong, I don’t want to look too stupid in the NTSB report.

I hardly ever did intersection departures before but when the Sonex CEO was killed after an intersection departure I took them off my list of options. My instructor was adamant that I was to use all of the runway all of the time for taking off. A T&G is different as the plane is close to flying speed when the "go" is initiated.