You can't do that, you're IFR

NealRomeoGolf

NealRomeoGolf

Final Approach
PoA Supporter
Joined
Apr 12, 2016
Messages
5,123
Location
Illinois
Display Name
Display name:
NRG
I admit what I'm about to ask may make me look like a moron. That's ok. I'm good at it and my mom always told me to do what I'm good at.

I'm flying along on an IFR flight plan. There's line of weather (rain - light in some parts - heavy in others) that I need to cross. I ask for a deviation. He says deviations left and right of course approved. But then up ahead is a restricted area that he warns me about. I said I can keep deviating to the south to avoid it. He says "you can't do that, you're IFR, I have to give you vectors." So wait a second, I can make my own course to avoid weather, but I can't make my own course to avoid a restricted area?

I get that when IFR you generally do nothing but follow your flight plan or fly the vector that ATC gives you. But they allow these weather deviations. So why couldn't he allow an airspace deviation without a vector? Separation requirements? He gave me a vector and I flew on. But it got me thinking.
 
Look at it this way, let’s say he says “sure”, get around that restricted area, then you screw up and bust it. What do you think would happen to him?
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
I admit what I'm about to ask may make me look like a moron. That's ok. I'm good at it and my mom always told me to do what I'm good at.

I'm flying along on an IFR flight plan. There's line of weather (rain - light in some parts - heavy in others) that I need to cross. I ask for a deviation. He says deviations left and right of course approved. But then up ahead is a restricted area that he warns me about. I said I can keep deviating to the south to avoid it. He says "you can't do that, you're IFR, I have to give you vectors." So wait a second, I can make my own course to avoid weather, but I can't make my own course to avoid a restricted area?

I get that when IFR you generally do nothing but follow your flight plan or fly the vector that ATC gives you. But they allow these weather deviations. So why couldn't he allow an airspace deviation without a vector? Separation requirements? He gave me a vector and I flew on. But it got me thinking.
Click to expand...

If you screw up your weather deviation and get beat up in a thunderstorm, that is your problem. If you screw up the restricted area deviation, that becomes everyone else problem.
 
when you ask for a weather deviation he is responsible for traffic separation still. thats why sometimes they will only give you, say, left deviationsonly or up to a certain amout. when he gives you left or right deviations approved, he has no conflicting traffic to worry about. with the restricted area, he is responsible to keep you out of it so he has to give you a vector to make sure you do not go into it.
 
There’s also a practical consideration. He doesn’t have your view of the weather and can’t be as precise as you can regarding exactly where you need to go. But he knows exactly what the boundaries of the Restricted area are.

It’s much like when I’m on VFR flight following and tell the controller that I need to maneuver to avoid clouds or smoke. He can’t see what I’m seeing so he lets me maneuver as necessary and continues to provide traffic advisories.
 
A couple of thoughts come to mind…separation from traffic being one of them.
 
When you are IFR you are cleared through all the airspace along your route. It’s the controllers responsibility to issue clearances that avoid any airspace he doesn’t want the aircraft in.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
I admit what I'm about to ask may make me look like a moron. That's ok. I'm good at it and my mom always told me to do what I'm good at.

I'm flying along on an IFR flight plan. There's line of weather (rain - light in some parts - heavy in others) that I need to cross. I ask for a deviation. He says deviations left and right of course approved. But then up ahead is a restricted area that he warns me about. I said I can keep deviating to the south to avoid it. He says "you can't do that, you're IFR, I have to give you vectors." So wait a second, I can make my own course to avoid weather, but I can't make my own course to avoid a restricted area?

I get that when IFR you generally do nothing but follow your flight plan or fly the vector that ATC gives you. But they allow these weather deviations. So why couldn't he allow an airspace deviation without a vector? Separation requirements? He gave me a vector and I flew on. But it got me thinking.
Click to expand...
I'm with @TCABM on this one. Without seeing the situation and hearing the back and forth, I suspect is just the practicality of having room for you to make deviations that don't affect separation requirements and not having room for deviations that do.
 
Declare an emergency and go through the restricted area if that is the route with less weather.
 
The answer is to figure out what heading works for you and ask for it. "It looks like 150 will be good for the weather and keep us clear of the Restricted Area. Can we get 150?"

"Piper XXX, fly heading 150, vectors for the Restricted Area. Advise when able direct destination."
 
MauleSkinner said:
Are restricted areas governed by Part 91?
Click to expand...
Absolutely. 91.133. ATC can't waive the restricted area for anybody. They can sometimes negotiate with the controlling agency for passage through a hot area. ATC is also not supposed to route you though active restricted and MOAs by their own rules. Prohibited areas should probably also be included in that, but the rules leave avoiding them 100% on the pilot.
 
I respectfully disagree. 14 CFR 91.113 deals with the right of way and has only little guidance for IFR traffic. Instead 14 CFR 73.11 and FAR AIM Chapter 3 Section 4 provide some insight:

Restricted Areas

a. Restricted areas contain airspace identified by an area on the surface of the earth within which the flight of aircraft, while not wholly prohibited, is subject to restrictions. Activities within these areas must be confined because of their nature or limitations imposed upon aircraft operations that are not a part of those activities or both. Restricted areas denote the existence of unusual, often invisible, hazards to aircraft such as artillery firing, aerial gunnery, or guided missiles. Penetration of restricted areas without authorization from the using or controlling agency may be extremely hazardous to the aircraft and its occupants. Restricted areas are published in the Federal Register and constitute 14 CFR Part 73.

b. ATC facilities apply the following procedures when aircraft are operating on an IFR clearance (including those cleared by ATC to maintain VFR‐on‐top) via a route which lies within joint‐use restricted airspace.
  1. If the restricted area is not active and has been released to the controlling agency (FAA), the ATC facility will allow the aircraft to operate in the restricted airspace without issuing specific clearance for it to do so.
  2. If the restricted area is active and has not been released to the controlling agency (FAA), the ATC facility will issue a clearance which will ensure the aircraft avoids the restricted airspace unless it is on an approved altitude reservation mission or has obtained its own permission to operate in the airspace and so informs the controlling facility.

So it is the on ATC to verify if the restricted airspace is active or not and to determine if the airspace is currently under FAA/ATC control. If not, it is their job to provide a clearance and vectors to avoid any conflicts.
 
I don't think you're disagreeing with me if that is who you are responded to. I said exactly what the snippet you wrote says: IFR will be kept out of hot restricted areas, but not prohibited. Do you see prohibited listed anywhere in the rules you quoted?
 
The inital question and the scenario were about a restricted airspace, not a prohibited airspace.
In case of a prohibited airspace, 14 CFR 91.123 (a) is the starting point. Question the clearance if you catch the error, otherwise comply.
 
Yes, it is ATC's responsibility to provide a clearance/vectors which honor restricted airspace. But...

In this case, it sounds like @NealRomeoGolf was off on his own (deviations for weather), and the controller noted that those deviations could potentially lead him into restricted airspace. I can see how that's tricky for the controller, as giving you discretion to turn left and right as needed for weather on the one hand and assigning a vector to avoid the restricted airspace are mutually exclusive. The controller can only do one or the other at any given time.

- Martin
 
Here I was crossing the weather. Right as I got to the other side is where he asked me (after being rebuked for my stupidity) whether I wanted to go north or south of the restricted. South was more away from the weather so that's what we did. The first two bends in the track was my discretion. The third and forth bends were his vectors.

Screenshot_20230810_221847_FlightAware.jpg
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
I admit what I'm about to ask may make me look like a moron. That's ok. I'm good at it and my mom always told me to do what I'm good at.

I'm flying along on an IFR flight plan. There's line of weather (rain - light in some parts - heavy in others) that I need to cross. I ask for a deviation. He says deviations left and right of course approved. But then up ahead is a restricted area that he warns me about. I said I can keep deviating to the south to avoid it. He says "you can't do that, you're IFR, I have to give you vectors." So wait a second, I can make my own course to avoid weather, but I can't make my own course to avoid a restricted area?

I get that when IFR you generally do nothing but follow your flight plan or fly the vector that ATC gives you. But they allow these weather deviations. So why couldn't he allow an airspace deviation without a vector? Separation requirements? He gave me a vector and I flew on. But it got me thinking.
Click to expand...

Unless the using agency has allowed transit, ATC is required to separate nonparticipating aircraft from the border of SUA by 3 miles. If the SUA doesn’t contain hazardous aircraft activities, then by facility letter, sep can be reduced to vectoring to remain clear of the border.

Restricted vs Prohibited has nothing to do with it either. This is ALL SUA (minus Alert & CFAs) including ATCAA and ALTRVs.
 
Velocity173 said:
Unless the using agency has allowed transit, ATC is required to separate nonparticipating aircraft from the border of SUA by 3 miles. If the SUA doesn’t contain hazardous aircraft activities, then by facility letter, sep can be reduced to vectoring to remain clear of the border.

Restricted vs Prohibited has nothing to do with it either. This is ALL SUA (minus Alert & CFAs) including ATCAA and ALTRVs.
Click to expand...
Which is why he ended up giving me a second vector. His first one wasn't keeping me far enough away (separated).
 
As controllers, we need you on a defined route. And as mentioned above, that route needs to clear SUA by a certain amount. I would not issue a turn at pilots discretion to remain clear of restricted airspace. But I could issue “left or right deviations approved, when able, fly heading 240 and advise clear of weather”. some of it is that we deal with a lot of dumb pilots (no one here, of course) who, if given responsibility for staying clear of R airspace, would plow right through it. Some of it is CYA on the part of the controller. If I issue a hard heading or fixes around airspace, I know it will work, or I can fix it if it won’t.
 
So earlier this summer I was trying to fly around a storm. ATC said their weather was down and they couldn't see anything, however I had radar on ADS-B. I rubber banded a course on foreflight and asked ATC if I could fly the heading I figured out on foreflight to deviate around the weather. They approved it without issue. Maybe that's the way to do what you want, plot it out on foreflight/app of choice/chart and just ask for the heading you want.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top