XC Requirements for PPL Certificate

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Pendragon

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Pendragon
Here is my situation, I am a student pilot who recently completed my two XC solo flights. Mileage on the first was 137mi round trip, the time was 1.8hr. The second XC trip was 2 hops, including a towered airport, and was 196mi, the time was 3.0hr. So from a FAR 61 perspective, I have two XC trips as required for mileage, but I only have 4.8hr XC time. I need 5hr XC time to meet the Part 61 requirement. My question is, can I fly an XC flight to another airport close by to make up the .2hr (12minute) deficit, or do I need to fly another 50mi XC flight to meet the definition of XC flight? The definition of what constitutes a XC flight is a bit confusing, in that I have done the mileage requirement, unfortunately, I didn't sit there long enough to run the meter to 2hrs precisely.I am fine with doing a shortened XC to another airport, but I would rather not have to do another 50mi XC to add 12 minutes to my experience requirement. Thoughts???
 
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You have to do the more than 50 to get that.2 to count.
 
When I went out on my 2nd xc my
CFI told me, “Whatever you do, don’t land with less than xxx on the Hobbs.” About a week later I saw a guy headed out on a 100+nm round trip because he was .1 short. It happens.
 
Pendragon said:
Here is my situation, I am a student pilot who recently completed my two XC solo flights. Mileage on the first was 137mi round trip, the time was 1.8hr. The second XC trip was 2 hops, including a towered airport, and was 196mi, the time was 2.0hr. So from a FAR 61 perspective, I have two XC trips as required for mileage, but I only have 4.8hr XC time. I need 5hr XC time to meet the Part 61 requirement. My question is, can I fly an XC flight to another airport close by to make up the .2hr (12minute) deficit, or do I need to fly another 50mi XC flight to meet the definition of XC flight? The definition of what constitutes a XC flight is a bit confusing, in that I have done the mileage requirement, unfortunately, I didn't sit there long enough to run the meter to 2hrs precisely.I am fine with doing a shortened XC to another airport, but I would rather not have to do another 50mi XC to add 12 minutes to my experience requirement. Thoughts???
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1.8 + 2.0 = 3.8. How did you get 4.8?
 
Only XC time will count toward that. You’ll have to fly another 50nm+ flight to get the time.
 
Why is this an issue, you need 10 solo hours anyway. Almost all of my solo time was XC. Plus if you go for instrument that XC time will be counted towards the 50 anyway.

What's with everyone doing minimums?
 
The requirement for a XC is 50nm, that's written in ink in the regs, both you and your instructor should know that. Sorry, but that's the way it is.
Fly the additional XC and use it for the experience, you and everyone else at your stage can use it. Next time if you think you're going to come up a couple of tenths short on time, do a couple of touch and gos at one of the airports.
 
EdFred said:
Why is this an issue, you need 10 solo hours anyway. Almost all of my solo time was XC. Plus if you go for instrument that XC time will be counted towards the 50 anyway.

What's with everyone doing minimums?
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My question has always been, why take lessons if you don't want to fly?

But I can see someone being a little upset about needing another flight to meet minimums when better planning would have taken care of it.
 
Pendragon said:
Here is my situation, I am a student pilot who recently completed my two XC solo flights. Mileage on the first was 137mi round trip, the time was 1.8hr. The second XC trip was 2 hops, including a towered airport, and was 196mi, the time was 3.0hr. So from a FAR 61 perspective, I have two XC trips as required for mileage, but I only have 4.8hr XC time. I need 5hr XC time to meet the Part 61 requirement. My question is, can I fly an XC flight to another airport close by to make up the .2hr (12minute) deficit, or do I need to fly another 50mi XC flight to meet the definition of XC flight? The definition of what constitutes a XC flight is a bit confusing, in that I have done the mileage requirement, unfortunately, I didn't sit there long enough to run the meter to 2hrs precisely.I am fine with doing a shortened XC to another airport, but I would rather not have to do another 50mi XC to add 12 minutes to my experience requirement. Thoughts???
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As others have said, yes you need to fly at least 50 nm away for it to count as a XC for this purpose. So you can't do it in 0.2, you're going to end up with maybe 1.2. That's not necessarily a bad thing, you'll need that time later anyway.

However, treat this as a good learning experience to carefully read the regulations and understand what's required before you start on training. So, when you go for your instrument and commercial ratings, understand the requirements. Don't just rely on your CFI, especially as this one clearly let you down here. As a CFI, I have more than once told students "make sure this trip takes at least X.X hours" for various ratings where the time matters. But it's a joint responsibility.
 
RussR said:
As others have said, yes you need to fly at least 50 nm away for it to count as a XC for this purpose. So you can't do it in 0.2, you're going to end up with maybe 1.2. That's not necessarily a bad thing, you'll need that time later anyway.

However, treat this as a good learning experience to carefully read the regulations and understand what's required before you start on training. So, when you go for your instrument and commercial ratings, understand the requirements. Don't just rely on your CFI, especially as this one clearly let you down here. As a CFI, I have more than once told students "make sure this trip takes at least X.X hours" for various ratings where the time matters. But it's a joint responsibility.
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^ ^ ^ T H I S ^ ^ ^

When flying as PIC you alone are responsible, so yes, this is a great learning experience.

I remember, (it was only Feb 2021) when my instructor and I were planning my XC for PPL, and he said you need to slow the plane down to make the time. He told me of a student having to go back for .2 because he did not slow down on the same route I was flying. Now, I love flying and would gladly fly the route again, but being goal-oriented and not completing the requirement would have meant a failure to complete the task. So, to the OP, @RussR offered great advice "treat this as a good learning experience to carefully read the regulations and understand what's required before you start on training."
 
BTW...

When planning the xc, the 50nm requirement applies to the straight-line path, but nothing says that’s what you actually have to fly. For my night xc, I flew a longer route to ensure I met the minimum time.
 
Thanks for all the insights and comments, my question is answered and I will do an additional 50mi XC. I also appreciate the insights about logging more time is good, but it is expensive too, especially when you land at the destination airport and then turn around and come back.
 
Pendragon said:
Thanks for all the insights and comments, my question is answered and I will do an additional 50mi XC. I also appreciate the insights about logging more time is good, but it is expensive too, especially when you land at the destination airport and then turn around and come back.
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Does the school charge more $$ for XC rental than solo practice area/pattern rental?

You still need solo time - whether it's practice, pattern, or XC.
 
RussR said:
As others have said, yes you need to fly at least 50 nm away for it to count as a XC for this purpose.
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Most-correct answer here.

As for the OP, this question is easily answered by reading the regulations. And the DPE may ask you questions like this during your check ride. So if you don't know where or how to find the answer, it's the type of thing you should discuss with your instructor.
 
Oh these threads are just full of awesome.

Can’t afford to do a small xc, and wants training cut to the minimum. Will be griping when he has 43.2 hrs in the logbook for PPL.

Flying is expensive and small mistakes such as these can be costly to correct.
 
Pendragon said:
especially when you land at the destination airport and then turn around and come back.
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Nothing says you have to come right back. Is there anywhere interesting to go to that you could make a purpose out of it other than just flying there, touch and go and flying back?

For example, around here, there is a little airport with a great air and space museum that's just over 50 nm from many of the airports in or near OKC. If I "had" to get in another XC, I'd head there and make a day of it, or at least a couple of hours.

https://www.staffordmuseum.org/

Or even just somewhere with a restaurant on the field so you can sit and eat and watch airplanes land, and realize that yes, this flying stuff really is about the coolest thing ever.

Or get a crew car and drive into town and see the worlds biggest ball of twine. Or whatever.

Or get another student who needs solo XC time and you both fly out there (separate planes, obviously) and do whatever there is to do.

Or, if you really, really want to/have to minimize cost, you could pair up with another solo student - you fly somewhere while he or she drives there. Then he or she flies back and you drive back. Nothing says the XC has to be a round-trip. Shoot, around here, if they started driving while you were preflighting, they realistically could beat you to an airport like the one I previously mentioned. Obviously you'd have to coordinate with their instructor on that as well. But it's an idea.

Lindberg said:
Most-correct answer here.
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Thank you. I think it's important to be correct when talking about XC time, to make sure we're talking about the right purpose, as there are what, 7 definitions of XC?
 
Pendragon said:
Thanks for all the insights and comments, my question is answered and I will do an additional 50mi XC. I also appreciate the insights about logging more time is good, but it is expensive too, especially when you land at the destination airport and then turn around and come back.
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Yeah, if you look at it as .2 hrs then it's expensive.

If you look at it as another XC that will always be in your logbook and available for use as credit towards an advanced rating, it isn't so bad.

And if you look at it as a chance to fly somewhere you've never been, stop for lunch and maybe even get a crew car for an hour or two, enjoy the break, get a chance to check weather and file another flight plan or get flight following, it's an awesome way to get that .2!

edit: looks like @RussR has the same idea I had. Don't look at it as 0.2, look at it as another chance at having fun.
 
If the OP hated flying, I could see how the need to make another cross-country flight could be a real problem. ;)
 
RussR said:
Or, if you really, really want to/have to minimize cost, you could pair up with another solo student - you fly somewhere while he or she drives there. Then he or she flies back and you drive back. Nothing says the XC has to be a round-trip. Shoot, around here, if they started driving while you were preflighting, they realistically could beat you to an airport like the one I previously mentioned. Obviously you'd have to coordinate with their instructor on that as well. But it's an idea.
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That is really out of the box thinking. But a GREAT idea.
 
Rgbeard said:
Oh these threads are just full of awesome.

Can’t afford to do a small xc, and wants training cut to the minimum. Will be griping when he has 43.2 hrs in the logbook for PPL.

Flying is expensive and small mistakes such as these can be costly to correct.
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I see that, but I can't get too spooled up without actually knowing the student's situation. A successful professional who can easily afford it but just wants to do the minimums? Yes, I agree with you.

But in my case, I got my private pilot certificate in college. Not as part of a college program, just while I was in college. Now, I did have scholarships that paid for college, so I can't claim I was having to decide between school or flying or anything like that, but the flight training was completely on the side and at my own expense. You can bet I was trying to save costs as much as I could. I had 10.0 solo XC (which was the requirement at the time), and you can believe that on that last XC I made sure it took enough time. I, like I assume most people, was motivated to pass the checkride for various reasons and on a certain timeline and THEN I would enjoy flying recreationally. Having to do another flight to get that 0.2 wouldn't have been the end of the world, but I would have "beat myself up" a little bit too for not thinking ahead and just doing another touch-and-go or something.

So without knowing the situation, I reserve comment on whether the mere existence of the OP's question indicates they're being cheap or trying to "just do the minimum" or not.
 
EdFred said:
Does the school charge more $$ for XC rental than solo practice area/pattern rental?

You still need solo time - whether it's practice, pattern, or XC.
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I'm reading between the lines here...but I sorta get the student's point about the money
You're right it costs what it costs.... but to pay for droning along doing " nothing" for 100 miles "seems" like a waste perhaps.
It might seem more beneficial to pay for the 100 miles to be around and around the pattern practicing landings.... or some other thing that needs practice.

The the OP student... the ideas that others have suggested about going somewhere fun are of course excellent
I would also suggest that you consider ways to practice something along the way so it doesn't seem like such a waste....figure out something you need to work on so you're not wasting time. Build you confidence and get experience
ded reckoning? Try turning off the GPS.....
VOR navigation without GPS?
asking for flight following?
etc....
 
If you are worried about the cost, and PAY ATTENTION to the regs.

This could have been handled much easier if, during the flight planning, the person realised there were going to be 0.2 short and planned to add that to the flight.
 
...you get to go flying again - why is that a PIA? Just go get a hamburger and enjoy the flight!
 
There was someone that posted on FB that the DPE discontinued his exam based on his xc distance. Anyways one his legs that that measured 50 nm exactly (on foreflight) only ended up measuring 49.9 when the DPE plugged it into google maps.
 
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francisco collazos said:
There was someone that posted on FB that the DPE discontinued his exam based on his xc distance. Anyways one his legs that that measured 50 nm exactly (on foreflight) only ended up measuring 49.9 when the DPE plugged it into google maps.
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Nice. I wonder what made the DPE consider Google Maps to be "official" vs Foreflight (or any other software).

And how do you get airport-to-airport distance on Google Maps anyway? I guess you could use the "Measure distance" ruler, but that doesn't seem very official either.

I'd be more willing to trust flight planning software over an automobile directions website, although it is possible that it wasn't 50.0 exactly, but 49.9 rounded to 50, and displayed as "50".

Yes, it's always nice to shoot for more than the minimums, but if I DID have one that met and the DPE said it didn't due to looking it up on something like Google Maps, I'd be upset too.
 
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francisco collazos said:
There was someone that posted on FB that the DPE discontinued his exam based on his xc distance. Anyways one his legs that that measured 50 nm exactly (on foreflight) only ended up measuring 49.9 when the DPE plugged it into google maps.
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That's got to be conspiracy, urban legend or some other BS. Why would anyone come up short on flying XC? I don't get that - this is easy stuff to do.
 
I feel your pain OP.

Not only are rental rates outrageous, scheduling rentals is also a nightmare.

The OP has to schedule himself, the plane, and also hope wx cooperates. No small feat.

Don't bash the poor guy about muh minimum standards when its very difficult as a renting student to make it work.
 
Another way to turn this into a better learning situation. Suppose you know your landings still need work. You can fly a straight out and back that meets the distance requirements, then spend the rest of the afternoon doing T-n-Gs at your home ‘drome. Log it as one flight, 50.1 miles, 10 (or whatever) landings. And you are good to go.

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
Another way to turn this into a better learning situation. Suppose you know your landings still need work. You can fly a straight out and back that meets the distance requirements, then spend the rest of the afternoon doing T-n-Gs at your home ‘drome. Log it as one flight, 50.1 miles, 10 (or whatever) landings. And you are good to go.

-Skip
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Sounds like the solo cross-country requirements must have been relaxed quite a bit since I did my training.
 
Palmpilot said:
Sounds like the solo cross-country requirements must have been relaxed quite a bit since I did my training.
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Not really. Multiple touch an goes have been one of "those" questions for a long time with no clear answer. I've always felt that one or two extra trips around the pattern at a less familiar airport is fine but at some point it becomes something other than part of the cross country flight. Don't ask me how many. I don't know. But I prefer going off-route to see a nearby sight because the extra pilotage and route adjustment ("diversion") builds cross country skills.
 
When I was a student pilot in high school trying to get my solo XC's done in the dead of winter, with only one day a week on which I could do them, after having my long XC cancelled and rescheduled every week for 3 months due to weather or other issues, I also would be unhappy if poor planning shorted me by 12 minutes and I had to do an entire new XC flight.
 
Doing a third solo cross country is good experience, rather than minimizing the number of flights. Think about why you are required to do these solo cross countries in the first place.
 
dmspilot said:
… I also would be unhappy if poor planning shorted me by 12 minutes and I had to do an entire new XC flight.
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Whose poor planning though? .2 can be the difference between a good tailwind or a headwind.
 
TCABM said:
Whose poor planning though? .2 can be the difference between a good tailwind or a headwind.
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True. Good planning for this sort of flight might include knowing how much time you needed, then monitoring time during the flight and slowing down or making a minor excursion along the way. It might also include planning a longer route than direct.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Not really. Multiple touch an goes have been one of "those" questions for a long time with no clear answer. I've always felt that one or two extra trips around the pattern at a less familiar airport is fine but at some point it becomes something other than part of the cross country flight. Don't ask me how many. I don't know. But I prefer going off-route to see a nearby sight because the extra pilotage and route adjustment ("diversion") builds cross country skills.
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Disregard. I misunderstood what Skip was proposing.
 
For whatever it's worth, remember that the extra time is kept forever. If you apply for renters insurance, or owners insurance, they want flight time. They're not going to be picky about whether the time was as a result of previous poor planning. XC is XC. Also, as stated above, this will be less flight time you have to do for later certificates if you decide to pursue them.

As a final cheery thought, flying is probably not going to get much cheaper any time soon, so now is actually the cheapest time to make up the flight.
 
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