X-wind method: crab to a kick out, or slip?

Which method do you use when landing in a crosswind?

  • Crab final approach, then kick out to a slip

    Votes: 81 55.1%

  • Slip the final approach

    Votes: 57 38.8%

  • Something else

    Votes: 9 6.1%
  • Total voters
    147
Ron Levy said:
If you are going to wait to the flare to kick out of the crab into the slip, be ready for what happens if it turns out the crosswind is beyond the capability of your plane or yourself. You will be behind the power curve and drifting off the runway, and it will take some very quick and very precise control inputs to bring the situation back under control. That is why I recommend kicking out a lot sooner than the flare.
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Unfortunately, that kick out at the flair was how I was taught, and I never got the hang of it. In hind sight, I can see that it wasn't appropriate for me, and I started avoiding cross winds at all costs. It took grabbing a CFI a few years after getting my private to admit my problem and help me conquer crosswinds. That took using your method of a slip before crossing the fence - and sometimes half-way down final approach. Now I really enjoy the challenge.
 
Stan, I've done the slip method and it's a bunch of fun to hang that wing out there, but a lately I find myself able to go flying once every two months, and I'm usually carrying a passenger or two, non-pilots mostly. After doing both methods with the first few flights, most of them said it was more comfortable when I crabbed and then "kicked out" than when I slipped the final. I do agree with Ron too, in that you can't assume it will work. If I'm over the fence holding more than 10-15 degrees of crab, I'm already prepping for a go around situation, if I haven't already added power.
 
I have never understood what it is about a forward slip that frightens pax. I understand a full side slip to loose altitude but a forward slip is pretty calm in comparison.
 
tmyers said:
I have never understood what it is about a forward slip that frightens pax. I understand a full side slip to loose altitude but a forward slip is pretty calm in comparison.
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Two things. It's uncoordinated and feels 'wrong' if you're not used to it. Also, the wings can be quite steep which also feels unsettling.

Heck, in my learning so far, I've done as steep as a slip as you can pretty much do, full rudder with as much bank as I felt comfortable with my CFI still saying, "More!" when it feels like I'm banked 90 degrees and it's fun as hell.

Then one time I rode in the back with my CFI and my father upfront so I could watch some pros fly and they did some forward slips and it felt a bit nervous even though I knew what was going on. You can really feel the non-coordination in the back and when I'm not at the controls, banks feel steeper than they are -- I'm sure that feeling is even more exaggerated by non-aviation folks.

Of course some may love it.
 
A real slip is very coordinated! It takes real coordination to do an extensive slip to the runway, especially in a brisk cross wind. It can also save your life if the engine craps out , no flaps, and you have to land in a small area off airfield. Cross wind to me is a direct cross wind, 10 or 20 percent doesn't excite me too much. From what I read here, not too many people slip an airplane very much, or not at all.
 
Ron Levy said:
That works fine as long as the wind is within the capabilities of both pilot and aircraft. However, if the wind is stronger than expected, and outside those bounds, you can get a big, nasty surprise if you wait until the middle of the round-out to kick out the crab -- a surprise which may end upside down in the grass next to the runway. For that reason, I strongly recommend kicking into a slip on short final so you can see if you run out of control authority while it's still possible to go around without losing directional control.
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It's really odd to be agreeing with Ron on stuff... Ha... But...

I really want to know if I'm going to run out of rudder before I'm knocking over runway lights drifting sideways. ;)

Of course I'd be going around real quick, but Cessna's "demonstrated crosswind" is quite a bit below the actual capabilities of the 182's rudder.

Obviously I know the winds going in, and know we're in "this may not work well" territory, but when it's gusting, sometimes all bets are off anyway.

I'd like to know if I need the whole rudder in the gusts or still have a little more left. Only way to find out is to set up a little higher and find out.

This is after 300 hours, not just in 182s, but in mine with the STOL kit.

I don't recommend trying to find the edges of running out of rudder without a CFI on board who's more than willing to make you go around and plenty of practice on runways that aren't aligned well with the prevailing wind and a solid plan on where you're going to go if it isn't working out.

If you're really lucky, it's a left cross and the go around power will help you a bit. ;) ;) ;)

There's just no substitute for having to go do it.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you are going to wait to the flare to kick out of the crab into the slip, be ready for what happens if it turns out the crosswind is beyond the capability of your plane or yourself. You will be behind the power curve and drifting off the runway, and it will take some very quick and very precise control inputs to bring the situation back under control. That is why I recommend kicking out a lot sooner than the flare.
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I see Ron covered what I just posted about. ^^^this.^^^ :)
 
MarkZ said:
I agree Ron, and it was a word of caution my CFI told me. When he taught me this method (we were flying a bunch of practice approaches to minimums at the time), he said that if you fly an ILS in a crab, you are on a stabilized crabbed approach down to 200 AGL. He was teaching me to have the same mentality whether I'm flying an instrument approach, or I'm in the VFR pattern.

Would you suggest kicking out over the numbers instead of at the round out?
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That depends on if you're shooting for the numbers or the 1000' marker. In Instrument training you're often just wasting 1000' of runway consistently and on purpose and that's not a problem. You're still pretty high at the numbers if you're shooting for the marker.
 
FastEddieB said:
Of note...

...around this wooded portion on the Appalachians, it is very common for any crosswind to subside within about one wingspan of the ground.

So, one may crab all the way in, and in the flare find virtually no sideslip is required.

Or slip all the way in, just to get rid of the slip at the end.
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Not just the Appalachians. When I was a student pilot I once broke up my instructor by landing on one main in a dead calm wind because I flew what I thought would be there rather than what was there.

Now, as an instructor, I caution about that. I call it "flying with blinders".
 
tmyers said:
I have never understood what it is about a forward slip that frightens pax. I understand a full side slip to loose altitude but a forward slip is pretty calm in comparison.
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It's not a matter of frightening. Although pilots seem to be immune based on the poor rudder skills many show, passengers seem to have no trouble at all feeling their butts slide sideways during an extended slip. It's uncomfortable for most and perhaps feels like riding in a car with that bad driver uncle who always took turns way too fast.

Of course, the worst thing is a "loose altitude". I try to keep mine tight.

BTW, the crosswind slip is the "side" slip; the altitude-losing one us the "forward" slip.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you are going to wait to the flare to kick out of the crab into the slip, be ready for what happens if it turns out the crosswind is beyond the capability of your plane or yourself. You will be behind the power curve and drifting off the runway, and it will take some very quick and very precise control inputs to bring the situation back under control. That is why I recommend kicking out a lot sooner than the flare.
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As mentioned earlier, usually the crosswind on final is very different from what's happening at the runway. As Eddie described 'within one wingspan'

If I'm worried about a strong crosswind I'll leave in some power as I round out and slip.

I agree that's a good way to teach and in airplanes I'm not flying frequently I'll start a slip well before the round out, if only to get a feel for the plane
 
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midlifeflyer said:
When I was a student pilot I once broke up my instructor by landing on one main in a dead calm wind because I flew what I thought would be there rather than what was there.

Now, as an instructor, I caution about that. I call it "flying with blinders".
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As an aside, I developed the habit on wheel landings to roll on the right wheel of my Citabria ever-so-slightly first, even with no crosswind.

It seemed to make the plane less likely to "bounce" back into the air.

Maybe a bad habit, but worked for me.

Just curious...has anyone else found that worked for them?
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's not a matter of frightening. Although pilots seem to be immune based on the poor rudder skills many show, passengers seem to have no trouble at all feeling their butts slide sideways during an extended slip. It's uncomfortable for most and perhaps feels like riding in a car with that bad driver uncle who always took turns way too fast.

Of course, the worst thing is a "loose altitude". I try to keep mine tight.

BTW, the crosswind slip is the "side" slip; the altitude-losing one us the "forward" slip.
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Glad I'm not the only one. ;)
 
midlifeflyer said:
Of course, the worst thing is a "loose altitude". I try to keep mine tight.
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Usually I don't make a deal over spelling errors, but after puzzling over what Tim meant for a couple of seconds I almost posted that myself. Then I thought... nah. ;)

BTW, to get a nervous pax on the ground ASAP last summer, I actually did a very aggressive forward slip on final at home base. She didn't seem to mind that any more than being off the ground in the first place, and conquered her fear a couple of months later to go flying with me again. So this is very much an "it depends" sort of thing.

Ob on-topic: I used to be a slip-down-final kind of pilot, but in the last couple of years I've gotten more comfortable with the crab-and-kick-out method. But like several others in this thread, I prefer to transition to the slip well before the flare, usually about 100 AGL or so.
 
FastEddieB said:
I always take off at an angle to runway if the crosswind is strong, and will use that technique on landing as well. It can take a huge bite out of the crosswind component.

I was taught that way, and continued to teach it to my students.
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That may work for the trainers and such, but when you get into the larger aircraft, not so much.
 
ARFlyer said:
I tend to favor the crab until over the runway and then slip method. That's how I teach my students.

The only time I'll do a slip all the way down final is if there is a strong 10+ kts x/w. The Maule has a bad weather vane tendency in strong winds.
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I now crab until short final then get the nose straight. But when I flew the Maule, I tended to do the whole final in a slip as long as I didn't have unfamiliar passengers. It was just good warm-up and practice for the part that really counts.

Not sure what you mean by weather vane tendency (I've had to do a 270 to turn off a runway) but another reason to slip early in high winds is to make sure you have enough rudder. I've slipped where full rudder wasn't enough to get it straight until within 2 feet of the ground due to winds gradient.

I'm certainly guilty at times of flying only as well as I have to. In other words I definitely landed the Maule straighter than I land the RV 10.
 
Lately if I'm slipping on final I'll let it out just before the threshold to see how fast I'm actually going and to test what the wind is doing at the surface

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Not sure what is confusing. Main reason is checking my speed. Indicated speed can be way off actual while in a slip.

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Yeah, that's the one reason my friend who doesn't like slipping prefers crabbing all the way: inaccurate airspeed.

I'm learning this whole flying thing so ignore me, but my confusion was simply the "to check winds" portion since I don't know what you would know about the winds wing-level that you wouldn't know in a slip.
 
azure said:
Usually I don't make a deal over spelling errors, but after puzzling over what Tim meant for a couple of seconds I almost posted that myself. Then I thought... nah. ;)
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:D :D Neither do I. And I'm a horrible typist to boot. But "loose" for "lose" is one of those that is typically not a spelling error. So I have fun with it when I see it.
 
FastEddieB said:
We all realize that they are aerodynamically identical, right?
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One would certainly hope so.

But their purpose and the way we accomplish them is a bit different. That's why I prefer the terms "crosswind landing slip" and "altitude loss altitude slip." They at least describes the reason we are doing it as opposed to trying to explain that we use a "side" slip to keep out nose forward to the runway and turn our airplane sideways to the runway to do a "forward" slip.
 
midlifeflyer said:
But their purpose and the way we accomplish them is a bit different. That's why I prefer the terms "crosswind landing slip" and "altitude loss altitude slip." They at least describes the reason we are doing it as opposed to trying to explain that we use a "side" slip to keep out nose forward to the runway and turn our airplane sideways to the runway to do a "forward" slip.
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I guess I need to start avoid x-winds, because I can never remember whether I need to do a forward slip or side slip. ;) I never understood why having two terms for the same thing makes a dang bit of difference, and why it matters trying to remember which is which. That's a loaded question - it doesn't matter.
 
RoscoeT said:
I guess I need to start avoid x-winds, because I can never remember whether I need to do a forward slip or side slip. ;) I never understood why having two terms for the same thing makes a dang bit of difference, and why it matters trying to remember which is which. That's a loaded question - it doesn't matter.
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My CFI has never differentiated. It's just a "slip."

How do you land on short final? You keep the wings turned into the wind such that the plane flies on the runway course and the rudder such that the plane is aligned down the runway. If you have strong cross-winds, this will be a slip and you'll need to watch your indicated airspeed accordingly.

What's one method of losing altitude quickly? Full rudder and opposite aileron.

One thing I like about learning to fly is there are very few binary, hard-and-fast rules, like the maneuvers: they are not locked-in variables, but rather a collection of knowledge and conditions that you learn to apply in the correct environments.
 
dell30rb said:
As mentioned earlier, usually the crosswind on final is very different from what's happening at the runway. As Eddie described 'within one wingspan'

If I'm worried about a strong crosswind I'll leave in some power as I round out and slip.
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Having some power in won't help you in that situation. All it will do is make you land longer if you do land.
 
If you slip a skywagon with full flaps too hard, you can tail stall.

POH calls for no flaps on X-wind landings.
 
txflyer said:
If you slip a skywagon with full flaps too hard, you can tail stall.

POH calls for no flaps on X-wind landings.
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C-150 will as well. 40 degrees and hard slip and you'll have varying degrees of pitch authority.
 
Velocity173 said:
C-150 will as well. 40 degrees and hard slip and you'll have varying degrees of pitch authority.
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While I can't speak to the C-207, I can say with assurance the C-150 POH does not call for no flaps in a crosswind, and my several hundred hours of giving training in them tells me it will slip to a crosswind landing just fine with 40 flaps.
 
I can only speak for my C-180, but there's been a couple of times there was no way it was going to work with flaps. X-wind was too strong. I shouldn't have been doing it, but ...

I had to keep my speed up, approach with no flaps, do a wheelie, and pray...
 
txflyer said:
I can only speak for my C-180, but there's been a couple of times there was no way it was going to work with flaps. X-wind was too strong. I shouldn't have been doing it, but ...

I had to keep my speed up, approach with no flaps, do a wheelie, and pray...
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You kept your speed up......above the white arc?
 
Ron Levy said:
I am -- and they are aerodynamically identical. The difference is purely a matter of ground reference.
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That wasn't my point. My point was the comment that we ALL knew that. That isn't what I am sure of because I am sure some people think there is a difference.
 
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