X-wind method: crab to a kick out, or slip?

[SixPapaCharlie]

What you were feeling was either a gust (which can yaw an airplane for a moment from any direction), or the remnant of the "weathervaning" that occured as you rotated the airplane and before the wheels left the ground. If you do not control yaw as you rotate, you will leave the ground with a slight yaw. But once in flight, airspeed makes no difference. You can fly around all day at minimum controllable airspeed in a strong wind, and the airplane will never "weathervane" into the wind. A gust causing a momentary yaw oscillation is not "weathervaning".

Ok, I had to think about it but I guess it makes sense since the entire plane is inside a moving air mass, it has no knowledge (for lack of a better word) that it is drifting.

Hypothetical: What if the X wind was greater than the forward airspeed?

 

[flyingron]

Thus, "Ron's answer" seems to be the same for both Rons. :wink2:
.

Maybe the poll can be edited to add "Ron's Technique" to the list

 

[flyingron]

And unless I'm flying an Ercoupe or something with castering main gear, I do try hard not to land in a crab -- tires are too expensive.

Further, on planes like Navions or Bonanzas where the gear folds sideways I'd not want to be putting a lot of side load on them. Not so much of an issue on the Cessna single (or 337) retracts.

 

[RoscoeT]

Hypothetical: What if the X wind was greater than the forward airspeed?

Unless you manipulate the controls to deliberately turn the airplane into the wind so that you crab down the runway, the airplane will simply drift downwind away from the runway track. Wind speed has no impact on how the airplane flies once airborne. Everything else is simply ground reference.

 

[JimNtexas]

Even at slow speeds? I took off Saturday from 13 with 15G21 out of 200.
There was a distinct yaw into the wind at wheels up.

I wonder if the pilot in your reptile brain yawed the airplane into the wind without telling your higher level mammalian brain functions what it was doing?

Perhaps if someone makes an unmanned Husky we could do a controlled test.

In any case, let me add one more vote for 'Ron's Answer'.

 

[Bonchie]

I chose "other" -- crab initially, then transition to a slip at about 100-200 feet AGL (exception noted below). I definitely want to know before I start the flare whether or not the crosswind is within the capability of my aircraft and myself, so I try to find that out before crossing the threshold by seeing if I can hold the centerline in a slip while still having some remaining control authority in reserve. Thus, "Ron's answer" seems to be the same for both Rons. :wink2:

And unless I'm flying an Ercoupe or something with castering main gear, I do try hard not to land in a crab -- tires are too expensive.

That's how my instructor teaches it.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

I wonder if the pilot in your reptile brain yawed the airplane into the wind without telling your higher level mammalian brain functions what it was doing?

Highly possible. Certainly using right rudder on takeoff without too much thought anyway, not a far reach to assume I could add more with the same amount of thought.

 

[flyingron]

Doesn't take a central nervous system to get the slipping takeoff to turn into mostly coordinated flight, just get your feet off the rudders. A little extra right rudder combats some adverse yaw that mounts up.

 

[eman1200]

not sure which method I use because my eyes are always closed on final, arms crossed in front of my face, screaming bloody murder until my wheels make little squeeky noises on the ground.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Well, you have to ask yourself what the difference is.

My question exactly.

Two ends of a spectrum with an infinite number of variations between. (let's try that in a poll!)

 

[DJTorrente]

I learned in a 172 owned by a glider club. I suspect my CFI may have been grooming me to fly tows in the club's Pawnee and/or Super Cub; so he instilled in me to slip down final, always keeping the centerline of the aircraft aligned with the centerline of the runway -- no last minute kicking out the crab, and less likely to ground loop a tailwheel aircraft if stabilized and aligned. OTOH, our cheif pilot flies 121 for a living, and when I flew with him he advised me to keep the wings level on final -- the passengers like it better.

 

[FastEddieB]

Of note...

...around this wooded portion on the Appalachians, it is very common for any crosswind to subside within about one wingspan of the ground.

So, one may crab all the way in, and in the flare find virtually no sideslip is required.

Or slip all the way in, just to get rid of the slip at the end.

I favor the former, but both have their appeal.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

I learned in a 172 owned by a glider club. I suspect my CFI may have been grooming me to fly tows in the club's Pawnee and/or Super Cub; so he instilled in me to slip down final, always keeping the centerline of the aircraft aligned with the centerline of the runway -- no last minute kicking out the crab, and less likely to ground loop a tailwheel aircraft if stabilized and aligned. OTOH, our cheif pilot flies 121 for a living, and when I flew with him he advised me to keep the wings level on final -- the passengers like it better.

If you arrive on final a little high, then really get the stick over and the opp. Rudder to the stop, nose low to be sure, that's really fun. In the Stearman , it drops like a wall safe. Sometimes, on final in a stiff wind, keeping em level ain't gonna cut it. Over 15 knots, I'm not comfortable but many seem to be.

 

[MarkZ]

Really appreciate the info guys, thanks! At my home field there is little crosswind component in ground effect, there are so many trees and homes lining each side of the runway they negate much of the westerly winds. When I first started flying there I stuck with the slip method, and wasn't prepared for the wind to die off. My CFI took over before we had an off-runway excursion (mind you, our runway is 30 feet wide). After that goat rope, I worked with my CFI to get a better technique.

My CFI called it the "kick out" method. Hold a crab wings level until round out, then the middle of round out begin kicking the rudder to align the nose with the centerline between round out and flare. In the flare, use aileron to keep the plane on the centerline, which if done properly will result in the upwind wheel touching down first.

It took me a few landings to get used to it, but that's what's been working for me. It seems to be more comfortable on the passengers, because when timed correctly, by the time a passenger notices the bank, the aircraft is already on the runway. I tend to like it because it's easier on me now, I let the plane fly naturally until I get close, then put the correct wheel on the runway. I kind of feel like if the crosswind gets worse, by the time it could become a control issue, I will have already bled off a major component of lift and thrust.

Or am I way off base here?

 

[denverpilot]

Nope. It's one method.

 

[FastEddieB]

My CFI called it the "kick out" method. Hold a crab wings level until round out, then the middle of round out begin kicking the rudder to align the nose with the centerline between round out and flare. In the flare, use aileron to keep the plane on the centerline, which if done properly will result in the upwind wheel touching down first.

That's exactly how I do it.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Landing is my favorite flying. It's really fun , especially slipping a taildragger, which I do to some degree , needed or not. Sometimes at the end, slipping, very close to the ground, still slipping a little nose high, then kicking it straight and touching down. Being chicken, I always attempt this when it's quite calm.

 

[drotto]

I am being told to slip it when alone or with someone who understands what you are doing. With passengers who might get a little more nervous or airsick to crab it during approach then do a slip to line it up at the end.

 

[redtail]

There's something about the sight picture that I really like in a crab, so I usually crab down final then transition just short of the threshold.

On another note..
I love forward slips, especially in the Super Decathlon! (The only taildragger I've ever flown)

 

[Timmer]

My dad, who taught me a bit when I was young, always told me to slip ("wing-down") as he didn't like the idea of changing configuration at the last instant, especially in gusty winds. Further, it's good to know if you have enough rudder authority to handle the cross-wind before you're about to land.

My current instructor also never teaches crabbing although it naturally occurs when you're far out, of course.

Besides, slipping is tons of fun!

The only arguments I've heard for crabbing to the end are:

1. Passenger comfort: slipping is definitely more fun for the pilot than the passenger, especially if they are not pilots nor have much experience in a plane.
2. Plane can't slip: see many larger planes.

3. and I have heard someone argue they like crabbing since you're airspeed is not accurate during a slip so you have to give yourself a wider margin of speed and they would rather stay accurate in speed on final.

 

[FastEddieB]

As a possible #4...

...some planes have warnings about extended slips possibly unporting a fuel pickup.

 

[poadeleted20]

My CFI called it the "kick out" method. Hold a crab wings level until round out, then the middle of round out begin kicking the rudder to align the nose with the centerline between round out and flare. In the flare, use aileron to keep the plane on the centerline, which if done properly will result in the upwind wheel touching down first.

That works fine as long as the wind is within the capabilities of both pilot and aircraft. However, if the wind is stronger than expected, and outside those bounds, you can get a big, nasty surprise if you wait until the middle of the round-out to kick out the crab -- a surprise which may end upside down in the grass next to the runway. For that reason, I strongly recommend kicking into a slip on short final so you can see if you run out of control authority while it's still possible to go around without losing directional control.

 

[BillTIZ]

When I was first learning to fly, it was crab and kick, dropping a wing in the process. I just could not get the hang of a wing low approach from a long final.

Learning to fly tailwheel (and I was more experienced) taught me the wing low approach, slip it in on final.

As my J-3 instructor said, how do you know you can hold centerline on landing if you can't hold centerline on final. I.E., enough rudder against a crosswind.

 

[0luke1]

I check the crosswind by using the wing down on final, then crab the rest of the way in. Seems like less drama.


But that's only when someone at the FBO can't rotate the windsock so it's aligned with the runway.

 

[timwinters]

Further, it's good to know if you have enough rudder authority to handle the cross-wind before you're about to land.

Except that the winds you're experiencing at 300', 1/4 mile out, won't likely be representative of those at the surface so you still won't know.

Crab? Slip? I do both, depending on my mood. It's good to have multiple weapons in your back pocket.

 

[txflyer]

Drop a wing and hold centerline on short final. No flaps.

If you can't hold it in the air, you're not going to hold it on the ground.

We're talking skywagons. ☺

 

[RoscoeT]

As my J-3 instructor said, how do you know you can hold centerline on landing if you can't hold centerline on final. I.E., enough rudder against a crosswind.

Even if the wind on final was the same as at the surface, unless you plan on touching down at the speed you're flying on final, holding centerline on touchdown is not guaranteed. And if you are touching down at your approach speed, then that means a wheel landing. You still must get the tail down. In many tailwheel airplanes, you can successfully touch down fast on the wheels in x-wind for which getting the tail down safely is difficult or impossible. If you are 3-pointing in a x-wind, holding centerline on final means little. Experience in type is the only predictor on your success in landing in high x-wind.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

I voted option #1 as the best of three altho' "kicking out" sounds like an abrupt last minute thing? Transition more gradual and normally at 50' to 100' agl on short-short final is a better description of my technique. Sometimes if the crosswind is really strong I might test it at 200' or so just to see if I have the control authority available while keeping in mind that the wind usually decreases as you get closer to the ground.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

Even if the wind on final was the same as at the surface, unless you plan on touching down at the speed you're flying on final, holding centerline on touchdown is not guaranteed. And if you are touching down at your approach speed, then that means a wheel landing. You still must get the tail down. In many tailwheel airplanes, you can successfully touch down fast on the wheels in x-wind for which getting the tail down safely is difficult or impossible. If you are 3-pointing in a x-wind, holding centerline on final means little. Experience in type is the only predictor on your success in landing in high x-wind.

Good point, you might wheel land at a high enuf' airspeed to hold it and then ground loop it trying to lower the tail.

 

[poadeleted20]

Except that the winds you're experiencing at 300', 1/4 mile out, won't likely be representative of those at the surface so you still won't know.

I can't remember ever seeing stronger crosswinds on the surface than at 300 feet, so I'll stick with my recommendation. And I also can't imagine trying to land from 300 AGL at 1/4 nm out in any light single I know -- that's over 11 degree glide path.

 

[poadeleted20]

Even if the wind on final was the same as at the surface, unless you plan on touching down at the speed you're flying on final, holding centerline on touchdown is not guaranteed.

This is true, which is why I said earlier that I want to be able to hold centerline with an adequate reserve control margin. That way, when I slow in the flare, I'll still have enough control authority to keep it on line (or at least have plenty of warning that I may not have enough). I just don't want to be surprised by running out of control authority in the flare.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

...............
We were taking off from Dumas a few weeks back and I got to teach a CFI something. It was about 20-25kts coming 60deg off the nose, but the runway is very wide. So I lined up for take off way to the far left side of the runway, and aimed an angle to the right into the wind. He said he had never seen that before, and I explained that it gave the flight controls more time to get a 'bite' in the air as I accelerate and I can straighten it out later if needed. .......

Strong crosswind & wide runway, that's a good technique and I've used it myself. I've also been known to land and/or take off on taxiways for better wind alignment.

 

[ARFlyer]

I can't remember ever seeing stronger crosswinds on the surface than at 300 feet, so I'll stick with my recommendation. And I also can't imagine trying to land from 300 AGL at 1/4 nm out in any light single I know -- that's over 11 degree glide path.

No, but it can be a steadier more controllable situation. Then you get down next to trees and have to fight rotors and wind direction changes.

It gets sporty, at our airport, coming in low over a large Oak tree forest with another tree row on the runway's left side.

Your approach can be spot on until you drop below the tress and get blow every which way. If you hit the gap in the trees at the 1000' footers you'll balloon, just to get slammed back down by a rotor.

 

[MarkZ]

That works fine as long as the wind is within the capabilities of both pilot and aircraft. However, if the wind is stronger than expected, and outside those bounds, you can get a big, nasty surprise if you wait until the middle of the round-out to kick out the crab -- a surprise which may end upside down in the grass next to the runway. For that reason, I strongly recommend kicking into a slip on short final so you can see if you run out of control authority while it's still possible to go around without losing directional control.

I agree Ron, and it was a word of caution my CFI told me. When he taught me this method (we were flying a bunch of practice approaches to minimums at the time), he said that if you fly an ILS in a crab, you are on a stabilized crabbed approach down to 200 AGL. He was teaching me to have the same mentality whether I'm flying an instrument approach, or I'm in the VFR pattern.

Would you suggest kicking out over the numbers instead of at the round out?

 

[MAKG1]

200 AGL is plenty for a long crosswind slip. Just how much do you need?

 

[dell30rb]

Fly coordinated down final, when you round out simultaneously align the plane with the runway via the rudder and drop whatever wing is necessary to keep you from drifting side/side.

 

[48dodge]

Fly coordinated down final, when you round out simultaneously align the plane with the runway via the rudder and drop whatever wing is necessary to keep you from drifting side/side.

Isn't this similar to a slip?

 

[RoscoeT]

Isn't this similar to a slip?

The problem is verbiage. To most, "crab and kick" really means establishing a slip during the roundout or flare. Few actually crab down and then do nothing but yaw the airplane straight at the last second with rudder alone.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

But then again......yawn.

 

[poadeleted20]

Fly coordinated down final, when you round out simultaneously align the plane with the runway via the rudder and drop whatever wing is necessary to keep you from drifting side/side.

If you are going to wait to the flare to kick out of the crab into the slip, be ready for what happens if it turns out the crosswind is beyond the capability of your plane or yourself. You will be behind the power curve and drifting off the runway, and it will take some very quick and very precise control inputs to bring the situation back under control. That is why I recommend kicking out a lot sooner than the flare.