Wrong Altitude for Direction of Flight

Don't worry about it. FF controllers will frequently OK "wrong altitudes" if it doesn't interfere with other traffic. Happens all the time. Ask and ye shall receive.
 
roncachamp said:
It's a strange request if the elevation of the terrain below is over 7000 MSL.
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I've heard much stranger requests. And I can imagine situations where one might request 10,000 MSL as a VFR cruising altitude, such as westbound with a lower SCT-BKN deck with tops at 8000 and moderate turbulence below the deck, and a higher overcast below 11,500.
 
How do you strict VFR altitude folks wrap your head around cross country soaring flight?
 
ClimbnSink said:
How do you strict VFR altitude folks wrap your head around cross country soaring flight?
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91.159 says:
"... in level cruising flight ..."

A glider should be so lucky. The are either climbing or descending or turning (and hopefully climbing.) The rare times they in straight and level flight are when they are flying along a ridge - well under 3000 AGL.
 
So if you are a sloppy pilot and don't fly in level flight the rule doesn't apply, excellent.
 
ClimbnSink said:
So if you are a sloppy pilot and don't fly in level flight the rule doesn't apply, excellent.
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The rule works only to the extent that self-preservation motivates pilots to follow it. I imagine enforcement is otherwise difficult. It does appear you can zig-zag vertically indefinitely - that may actually have some statistical safety enhancement since it would presumably lower your time-averaged collision cross-section with aircraft in level flight. But it would increase the collision cross-section with aircraft that are also ascending and descending - though the increase would probably be comparatively lower.
 
You won't hear anything. Since you were on flight-following, ATC was aware of your altiude the whle time and would have had you change if there was going to be a conflict with any other traffic. Yesterday I flew a 40 mile IFR segment easterly at 4000' and often get assigned altitudes in some areas that are also "wrong" by our flight planning guidelines. Point is, as long as they meet the needs of ATC in that area/sector it's generally no big deal.
 
Last year I flew west for a few hours under IFR at 5000 feet because ATC was nice enough to accept my request after I noticed a loss of 20 knots groundspeed at 6000 feet. Although each time I was handed-off the new controller wanted me to verify my assigned altitude.
 
SbestCFII said:
You won't hear anything. Since you were on flight-following, ATC was aware of your altiude the whle time and would have had you change if there was going to be a conflict with any other traffic. Yesterday I flew a 40 mile IFR segment easterly at 4000' and often get assigned altitudes in some areas that are also "wrong" by our flight planning guidelines. Point is, as long as they meet the needs of ATC in that area/sector it's generally no big deal.
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ATC has no authority to have you change your altitude while on flight following and there is no "need" for ATC to meet. IFR is another matter.
 
Does AGL usually just mean above the ground directly below you or does it accommodate hilly terrain near you? This would be important when flying in a long valley.
 
roncachamp said:
It's a strange request if the elevation of the terrain below is over 7000 MSL.
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Why?

I cruise at 2000 AGL all the time over the mountains. It's a nice, comfortable light-wind buffer over the terrain.

Example: Donner Pass is about 7000 MSL. In a 172, I'll cross it at 9000 west bound or 9500 eastbound. Climbing over 10000 in spring or summer in a 172 is not pleasant, and much below 9000 starts to get turbulent and infested with gliders.
 
and the always popular descend and maintain 5,300 . . . .

its no big deal. VFR - looking out the window - you're ok.

Yes, it may be a technical violation. but no - no one is going to care.

You can also ask for nonstandard alts - or perhaps on FF the best way to put it is 'notify' with a reason -
 
MAKG1 said:
Why?
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Because within 3000 feet of the surface VFR pilots can cruise at any altitude they like.


§ 91.159 VFR cruising altitude or flight level.

Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall maintain the appropriate altitude or flight level prescribed below, unless otherwise authorized by ATC:

(a) When operating below 18,000 feet MSL and—

(1) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179 degrees, any odd thousand foot MSL altitude +500 feet (such as 3,500, 5,500, or 7,500); or

(2) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359 degrees, any even thousand foot MSL altitude +500 feet (such as 4,500, 6,500, or 8,500).

(b) When operating above 18,000 feet MSL, maintain the altitude or flight level assigned by ATC.
 
roncachamp said:
Because within 3000 feet of the surface VFR pilots can cruise at any altitude they like.
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Yes, I know the reg. I'm also going to tell Oakland Center exactly what I'm doing, even if it's not required, especially in mountainous terrain in a slow climber. Part of flight following is stating your intentions.
 
roncachamp said:
It shouldn't happen at all.
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Sure it should. I have asked numerous times for a non-standard altitude while under flight following and it has always been approved. Why would I do this? The stray cloud that happens to be at my altitude or maybe 100 feet below and a couple miles in front of me and I need to climb to maintain cloud clearances. I ask if there would be any conflict and I usually get an approval.

Tell me what's wrong with that.
 
Frank said:
Does AGL usually just mean above the ground directly below you or does it accommodate hilly terrain near you? This would be important when flying in a long valley.
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The safe thing is to pick the lower one for expressing terrain clearance, and the higher one for minimum altitudes. When it matters, you get told. E.g.,

Public Law 101-91 prohibits flight of VFR helicopters or fixed wing aircraft below 2000 feet above the surface of Yosemite National Park. "Surface" refers to the highest terrain within the park within 2000 feet laterally of the route of flight or within the uppermost rim of the Yosemite Valley.
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There is still some ambiguity about where the "uppermost rim" is. Most folks take it to mean Glacier Point (el. 7200) and fly over the valley at 9500 eastbound.

There is a few hundred feet of unexplained ambiguity for several coastal restrictions such as the National Marine Sanctuaries. What they actually prohibit is not overflight, but the disturbance of marine mammals and birds (presumably nesting) by flying within 1000 feet of them in a powered aircraft. They aren't likely to get more than a few feet off the beach. I doubt they mean to criminalize bird strikes, but I wouldn't want to be the test case for that.
 
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TexasPilot71 said:
Sure it should. I have asked numerous times for a non-standard altitude while under flight following and it has always been approved. Why would I do this? The stray cloud that happens to be at my altitude or maybe 100 feet below and a couple miles in front of me and I need to climb to maintain cloud clearances. I ask if there would be any conflict and I usually get an approval.

Tell me what's wrong with that.
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ATC has no authority to authorize deviations from FAR 91.159 outside of
Class B airspace, Class C airspace and the Outer Area associated with it,
and TRSAs. From Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control:


Section 7. Terminal Radar Service Area (TRSA)− Terminal

7−7−5. ALTITUDE ASSIGNMENTS

a. Altitude information contained in a clearance,
instruction, or advisory to VFR aircraft must meet
MVA, MSA, or minimum IFR altitude criteria.

REFERENCE−
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4−5−2, Flight Direction.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4−5−3, Exceptions.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4−5−6, Minimum En Route Altitudes.

b. If required, issue altitude assignments, consistent
with the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.119.

NOTE−
The MSAs are:
1. Over congested areas, an altitude at least 1,000 feet
above the highest obstacle; and

2. Over other than congested areas, an altitude at least
500 feet above the surface.

c. When necessary to assign an altitude for
separation purposes to VFR aircraft contrary to
14 CFR Section 91.159, advise the aircraft to resume
altitudes appropriate for the direction of flight when
the altitude assignment is no longer needed for
separation or when leaving the TRSA.

PHRASEOLOGY−
RESUME APPROPRIATE VFR ALTITUDES.

REFERENCE−
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4−8−11, Practice Approaches.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 5−6−1, Application.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7−2−1, Visual Separation.



Section 8. Class C Service− Terminal

7−8−5. ALTITUDE ASSIGNMENTS

a. When necessary to assign altitudes to VFR
aircraft, assign altitudes that meet the MVA, MSA, or
minimum IFR altitude criteria.

b. Aircraft assigned altitudes which are contrary to
14 CFR Section 91.159 must be advised to resume
altitudes appropriate for the direction of flight when
the altitude is no longer needed for separation, when
leaving the outer area, or when terminating Class C
service.

PHRASEOLOGY−
RESUME APPROPRIATE VFR ALTITUDES.

REFERENCE−
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 7−2−1, Visual Separation.



Section 9. Class B Service Area− Terminal

7−9−7. ALTITUDE ASSIGNMENTS

a. Altitude information contained in a clearance,
instruction, or advisory to VFR aircraft must meet
MVA, MSA, or minimum IFR altitude criteria.

b. Issue altitude assignments, if required, consistent
with the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.119.

NOTE−
The MSAs are:
1. Over congested areas, an altitude at least 1,000 feet
above the highest obstacle,

2. Over other than congested areas, an altitude at least
500 feet above the surface.

REFERENCE−
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4−5−2, Flight Direction.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4−5−3, Exceptions.
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4−5−6, Minimum En Route Altitudes.

c. Aircraft assigned altitudes which are contrary to
14 CFR Section 91.159 must be advised to resume
altitudes appropriate for the direction of flight when
the altitude assignment is no longer required or when
leaving Class B airspace.

PHRASEOLOGY−
RESUME APPROPRIATE VFR ALTITUDES.
 
MAKG1 said:
Yes, I know the reg. I'm also going to tell Oakland Center exactly what I'm doing, even if it's not required, especially in mountainous terrain in a slow climber. Part of flight following is stating your intentions.
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Stating is not requesting. Asking to do something that you're free to do is a strange request.
 
Okay, now I understand the controller's responsibility. But we as pilots aren't held to a standard that requires us to know their playbook. However, we are required to understand our rules which state in 91.159 that we are to maintain appropriate altitudes UNLESS APPROVED BY ATC. So it makes perfect sense for a pilot who understands 91.159 to request a non-standard altitude if receiving flight following outside B C or D airspace. It also makes good sense to make this request in case ATC is planning an IFR flight to cross paths in say 15 miles.

Now, how about a situation where a pilot is NOT receiving flight following and is in fact not talking to anybody and finds the need to adjust altitude in order to meet VFR cloud clearances because of that one stray cloud in the sky? Seems he's going to have to bust one reg or the other.
 
So Steven can ATC authorize a pilot's Part 91.159 deviation in TRSA, C or B if it has nothing to do with separation?

Is "unless otherwise AUTHORIZED" an approval for deviation or is it specifically referencing assigment of altitude as in Ch 7 of the .65?
 
TexasPilot71 said:
Now, how about a situation where a pilot is NOT receiving flight following and is in fact not talking to anybody and finds the need to adjust altitude in order to meet VFR cloud clearances because of that one stray cloud in the sky? Seems he's going to have to bust one reg or the other.
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Maybe the "in level cruising flight" clause would provide a loophole, i.e., just don't level off until you get past the cloud.
 
Some mapping companies have waivers for direction of flight. Some don't. In 20 years I don't ever recall someone getting in trouble over it.
 
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