Why you should ALWAYS bring a gun camping

dmccormack said:
Probably far fewer than you think.

Oh -- and most of them work at gun stores.
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Well I stated no numbers at all. Do you deny there are wannabes? I see a lot of camo being sold at places where there is little interest in hunting, like suburban Chicago. Ever go to a gun show? That is like fashion show for people to walk around with their guns and show off their gun blankies to each other. Far too many wannabes in at those places.
 
Any evidence to support this contention?

dmccormack said:
No different for fly fishermen and bait casters.

Fly Fishing places lots of emphasis on catch and release, habitat restoration, etc.

Bait casters typically are happy when they have strong enough line to drag the fish out of the water, across the bank, and up to the lawn chair.
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mantakos said:
Is there a difference?

In my experience, woman are more able to understand the difference between toys and tools, while boys, err, I mean, men, have a tendency to blur the distinction. I know when I bought my first dremel tool, I thought "this is pretty cool", and I started looking around for things to apply it to, and was ultimately disappointed by the lack of opportunities.
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My dremel is one of my most useful tools. From cutting off motorcycle chains, to polishing a component on a gun, to sanding something. It's probably my most used power tool.

Guns aren't purely a defensive tool for everyone. A lot of people simply enjoy collecting them, building them, and shooting them. Would I call it a tool for them? Nope. There is nothing wrong with guns being your hobby. My great great uncle built some really cool guns. It kept him busy and he lived a happy life.
 
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Maxmosbey said:
... To me the first line of self defense is knowing how to avoid getting yourself in a situation where someone else is shooting at you.
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That is an excellent policy and one that the responsible gun owners I know follow religiously.

SkyHog said:
...the gun is a self defense weapon against fear of death.

There is never a reason to use a gun to stop a bar fight. Getting hit with a beer glass is not life or death.

....
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Very true!!!
fgcason said:
What about using the nasty pepper spray for bears on people..you know, the stuff that says don't use it on humans because it will really hurt people and likely cause permanent damage...

.
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I suspect its because the range of the pepper spray does not come near that of a bullet.

Obi Heed Kenobi said:
In other gun news, expect a major decision on the 2nd Amendment today.
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And a major decision it was.

ScottM said:
If I may offer this edit;

'In other gun news, expect a major decision on Mayor Daley's blood pressure today.'

Should be fun to watch. When the veins on his head explode I wonder what will be easier to plug. His circulatory system or the BP gushing gulf oil well. :D:D
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Scott you have hit one something probably everyone in this thread would agree would be fun to watch.:wink2:

Maxmosbey said:
.... Last month we drove to Chicago. I generally at least take one with me if I go to Chicago, and I forgot it this time. That shows where I'm at right now. ....
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Do you have a federal permit? Transporting from state to state can be a real PITA. New Jersey for example has charged Philly DAs who have taken their side arms down the shore.

ScottM said:
I would imagine that, like any group, the most memorable are the most idiotic.
We don't remember the guy who did a good job flying and did everything safe. We remember the idiot who was saying ATITAPA on each transmission, landed with a tailwind as another person was taking off and then proceeded to taxi across the grass to get to the fuel pumps before anyone else.
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Yup doesn't that sum up about everything that makes the news.
 
Much like many GA airports, but with significantly lower accident rates and fatalities?

ScottM said:
Well I stated no numbers at all. Do you deny there are wannabes? I see a lot of camo being sold at places where there is little interest in hunting, like suburban Chicago. Ever go to a gun show? That is like fashion show for people to walk around with their guns and show off their gun blankies to each other. Far too many wannabes in at those places.
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ScottM said:
Well I stated no numbers at all. Do you deny there are wannabes? I see a lot of camo being sold at places where there is little interest in hunting, like suburban Chicago. Ever go to a gun show? That is like fashion show for people to walk around with their guns and show off their gun blankies to each other. Far too many wannabes in at those places.
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I've been to a lot of gun shows and the majority of the people aren't wannabes. They enjoy firearms and generally just collect/build them. Most of them aren't even into pistols and few carry.

Perhaps the gun shows you've been to in your area are different. There isn't much of a wannabe-gangsta-gun-carrying-thug life attitude here.
 
jesse said:
I've been to a lot of gun shows and the majority of the people aren't wannabes. They enjoy firearms and generally just collect/build them. Most of them aren't even into pistols and few carry.

Perhaps the gun shows you've been to in your area are different. There isn't much of a wannabe-gangsta-gun-carrying-thug life attitude here.
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Unfortunately, NM's gun shows are filled with the "Orale vato, look at my piece!" morons that Scott is talking about. The ones that hold their guns at a 90 degree angle when dry firing them at a crowd of people without realizing what they're doing.

The more "red necky" the person looks here, the more respecting of the guns they carry they seem to be.
 
wabower said:
Did you determine the number of them that had CHL permits?
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Nope, just anecdotal observations on my part gathered over the last 40-odd years. There are more d-bags at public ranges than at the Izaak Walton League. I think that's because the IWL people are more conservation-minded and service-oriented. But in any gathering of people with firearms, there are a certain number of the, "mine's bigger" mentality types that break out a .500 S&W or a .460 Weatherby just to show off. And there are special forces wannabes with AR and HK-whatevers with laser sights and clamped on flashlights, guys with short man syndrome and all manner of other testosterone-driven afflictions. I think there are a number of people that conceal-carry that do it to compensate for something, not in response to any real, measurable threat. YMMV.
 
mantakos said:
Is there a difference?

In my experience, woman are more able to understand the difference between toys and tools, while boys, err, I mean, men, have a tendency to blur the distinction. I know when I bought my first dremel tool, I thought "this is pretty cool", and I started looking around for things to apply it to, and was ultimately disappointed by the lack of opportunities.

Planes work the same way, of course. We work hard to rationalize their utility, when we're really just enamored with them and with flying. We find "jobs" for our planes to do, like take us to places that we probably would never bother to go to if they were a short walk from home.
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Yeah, there's a difference. I never called any M16, M2HB, M240, LAW, M-60A3, M1IP, M1A1, M9, Claymore, Det cord, etc etc "toys."

mantakos said:
Without getting into any single specific instance, I'll note that we see many of these anecdotes, and I'll also note that they tend to be expressed in terms of "had to" and "if not for..." and "otherwise I'd be..." and such. I might be inclined to say the same thing about my dremel tool: "why, if I hadn't had that, then ...", but often the honest answer is "... I'd have done it some other way".
-harry
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Harry, I gave you a very specific situation. I've been in many different situations that ended badly, and some ended well (hard to grow up in industrial NJ/Newark in the 70s without that).

In this particular situation, the ability to escalate gave me an advantage -- which, in a fight, is often all you need.
 
jesse said:
I've been to a lot of gun shows and the majority of the people aren't wannabes. They enjoy firearms and generally just collect/build them. Most of them aren't even into pistols and few carry.

Perhaps the gun shows you've been to in your area are different. There isn't much of a wannabe-gangsta-gun-carrying-thug life attitude here.
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I actually have never been to a gun show "in my area" (by that I am thinking you mean Illinois). I have been to far too many with my now deceased father in law in his town of Las Vegas. He was a gun collector. Lots of really interesting guns could be found at flea markets. But would still go to gun shows and if I was in town I would be there with him too. I don't think I can recall him ever finding anything of 'value' to him at the gun shows. Far too often it was the Rambo types at those shows and my FIL would get bored and leave.

On a side note, I am still ****ed at my FIL's alleged best friend. When the FIL died his best friend came over and helped himself to several guns. One of which I really wanted. We tried getting them back but his 'best friend' stopped speaking with us when we asked for the stuff he said he had 'for safe keeping'.
 
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Trapper John said:
I've seen a lot of idiots at rifle/pistol ranges. There seem to be much fewer d-bags at archery ranges. Not sure what to make of that...
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I've gotten to the point that I do my best to avoid rifle ranges, whether public or private.

Here's what to make of it: anyone can a buy a gun.
 
SkyHog said:
...

The more "red necky" the person looks here, the more respecting of the guns they carry they seem to be.
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Again, you're moving to Winston-Salem, right? Be prepared for a culture shock! :)
 
dmccormack said:
Yeah, there's a difference. I never called any M16, M2HB, M240, LAW, M-60A3, M1IP, M1A1, M9, Claymore, Det cord, etc etc "toys."
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Suit yourself, but I bet a day at the range with a few of those would be a lot of fun.
-harry
 
ScottM said:
I...
On a side note, I am still ****ed at my FIL's alleged best friend. When the FIL died his best friend came over and helped himself to several guns. One of which I really wanted. We tried getting them back but his 'best friend' stopped speaking with us when we asked for the stuff he said he had 'for safe keeping'.
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hmpf some best friend! Around here that is theft, clear and simple. The estate attorneys first call after the letter was sent demanding them back was to the local police. That is just so low.
 
AdamZ said:
hmpf some best friend! Around here that is theft, clear and simple. The estate attorneys first call after the letter was sent demanding them back was to the local police. That is just so low.
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No kidding.

Scott, depending on the time frames involved here, you might want to consider contacting the Vegas police. Not necessarily from a "he needs to get in trouble" standpoint, but more from a "what if he sells them to someone who uses them in a gang-related murder" standpoint. Depending on how your father in law acquired those guns, and how his estate went through probate, your SO's name could be associated with them.

Something to consider, at least.
 
AdamZ said:
hmpf some best friend! Around here that is theft, clear and simple. The estate attorneys first call after the letter was sent demanding them back was to the local police. That is just so low.
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It was theft and we did send letters via our attorney and filed a police report for the stolen guns. The 'bff' soon disappeared and has never been heard from again.
 
jesse said:
Please cite your source.

There were 17,034 homicides in the United States in 2006.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

The violent crime rate for 2008 was 454.5 per 100,000 people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

There are 1,000 lightning victims per year in the United States.
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/probability.html

The population of the United States is 307,006,550.
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds...rue&dl=en&hl=en&q=population+of+united+states

Based on the above numbers you have a:
1:18,023 chance of being the victim of a homicide.
1:220 chance of being the victim of a violent crime.
1:307,006 chance of being struck by lightning.

None of the above numbers were put together with a 'pro gun' swing. Just me looking at some neutral sources. I'd never listen to any pro-gun or anti-gun sources as they both swing the numbers in ridiculous directions. The above indicates you are 17 times more likely to be the victim of a homicide versus lightning. I'm not sure how you could possibly say my numbers are off by 17 times.
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those numbers need some tweaking. For example, the big fear is random gun violence for which one can rely only on the protection of their own weapon. Well, based upon the below (from your source),

In 14% of all murders, the victim and the offender were strangers. Spouses and family members made up about 15% of all victims, about one-third of the victims were acquaintances of the assailant, and the victim and offender relationship was undetermined in over one-third of homicides.
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...hence that 17k homicide figure has to be reduced by somewhere between 52%-85%. Moreover, not all homicides are gun-related (and clearly, there is some overlap between gun-related and knowing people). The wiki article was, shockingly, very unclear about the gun-related portion of the 17k homicides. Regardless, lets say its more like 2.5k -8.8k (likely to be on the lower end of the range) for random gun-related homicides, lets say more like 1:123,000. I grant, still more likely than lightning, sure, but 1 in 123,000??? I still call that a pinhole risk. YMMV.

Moreover the operating assumption is that gun ownership renders one immune to being one of those statistics. It may reduce the likelihood, I grant you, but by how much? 10%? 50%? 99%.

I'm not anti-gun. However, if someone said, hey brother, you have a less than .001% chance of being the victim of a homicide, you better gun up bro!, i would probably say, "I'll sleep fine tonight."
 
flyersfan31 said:
those numbers need some tweaking. For example, the big fear is random gun violence for which one can rely only on the protection of their own weapon. Well, based upon the below (from your source),



...hence that 17k homicide figure has to be reduced by somewhere between 52%-85%. Moreover, not all homicides are gun-related (and clearly, there is some overlap between gun-related and knowing people). The wiki article was, shockingly, very unclear about the gun-related portion of the 17k homicides. Regardless, lets say its more like 2.5k -8.8k (likely to be on the lower end of the range) for random gun-related homicides, lets say more like 1:123,000. I grant, still more likely than lightning, sure, but 1 in 123,000??? I still call that a pinhole risk. YMMV.

Moreover the operating assumption is that gun ownership renders one immune to being one of those statistics. It may reduce the likelihood, I grant you, but by how much? 10%? 50%? 99%.

I'm not anti-gun. However, if someone said, hey brother, you have a less than .001% chance of being the victim of a homicide, you better gun up bro!, i would probably say, "I'll sleep fine tonight."
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Just because a homicide wasn't gun related or was someone you knew doesn't mean you couldn't have stopped it with a gun.

I'm not saying you should be packing a gun. I really don't care what someone elses decides to do and would rather they not care what others decide to do.
 
im starting to much prefer leah's version of camping. no crowds of gun toting crazy people around. although packing may be a good idea in case a grizzly or polar bear wants to have you for lunch.
 
jesse said:
Just because a homicide wasn't gun related or was someone you knew doesn't mean you couldn't have stopped it with a gun..
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I factored that into the equation because the point of discussion is the random, dudes shooting at New Mexico campers event. Everyone seems to be worried about the random encounter for which they feel the need to be armed. I'm merely showing just how small a possibility that is. Now, if a feller wants to carry a gun to protect against that less than .001% risk, fine, but that feller should at least recognize the degree of, pardon the pun, overkill, inherent in that decision.

I went to a gunshow outside of Phila. Interesting. A lot of people who took their stuff seriously, a few obvious Rambeaux, a few mumbling secessionists, and a few tire-kickers like myself. I did overhear a number of conversations (at least 10) about the threat Obama was to gun ownership...
 
I've found that putting a round from a .38 into firewood soaked with about half a gallon of gasoline works well.

So there is another reason.
 
mantakos said:
Suit yourself, but I bet a day at the range with a few of those would be a lot of fun.
-harry
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I've had some pretty long days and nights on ranges...

Almost worth all the work required before and after.

(Tank main gun firing is a hoot, but we figured it was 40 hours of labor for about 10 seconds of "fun")
 
dmccormack said:
I've had some pretty long days and nights on ranges...

Almost worth all the work required before and after.

(Tank main gun firing is a hoot, but we figured it was 40 hours of labor for about 10 seconds of "fun")
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Out of curiousity, how do you clean them?
 
drive down to the local tank wash with a pocket full of quarters, of course! ;)
 
Some of the funniest days I've ever spent were on the tank range at Ft. Hood. The all-time highlight was when somebody told the guys in the tanks they could start shooting but didn't tell the privates that were toting the big boxes containing the rounds from the trucks to the stacks alongside the tanks, or the gaggle of O-critters that were standing directly behind them. First round started a stampede that resulted in lots of flattened brass.

dmccormack said:
I've had some pretty long days and nights on ranges...

Almost worth all the work required before and after.

(Tank main gun firing is a hoot, but we figured it was 40 hours of labor for about 10 seconds of "fun")
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Carrying is a choice I make relative to the environment and the degree of risk I feel exists. Therefore, I carry, but less likely in crowds than in this circumstance...

The scenario- Midnight (though still light), a quiet remote lake, definitely bears in the area (though I never saw one), and having some extremely tasty fish in the bag! No way I'd be out there without some sort of protection!

What you see held on my chest- Taurus Judge, unpolished stainless .45/410, 4" barrel, 2.5" cylinder, loaded with 325gr long colt.
 

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Obi Heed Kenobi said:
Out of curiousity, how do you clean them?
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The main gun uses a VERY long bore brush and lots and lots of plain hard work. The breech has to be disassembled and removed, etc.

The small arms take time as well: One .50 cal (M2HB) at the commanders station, two M240 7.62 machine guns (gunner's coax and loader), and sidearms for all crew members. The M60 had the "Grease gun" -- a small, sorta auto .45 caliber noisemaker.

The tracks, the turret, and all the interior have millions of mud and dust catching groves and hiding spots.

We usually drove them through a "bird bath" with water cannons mounted on each end. As long as you kept the water AWAY FROM HE INTAKE, you were all right. But at least once some dingbat private would spray a few hundred gallons into the intake of the M1 turbine. Always lots of fun (had to tow the beast out with another tank. Guess who had to wade in the 4' of filthy water to hook up the cables? Yep, Private knucklehead).

Of course everything associated with the tank and ancillary equipment had to be inventoried, inspected, and turned in. A good Platoon Leader helped until every tank was turned in.
 
wabower said:
Some of the funniest days I've ever spent were on the tank range at Ft. Hood. The all-time highlight was when somebody told the guys in the tanks they could start shooting but didn't tell the privates that were toting the big boxes containing the rounds from the trucks to the stacks alongside the tanks, or the gaggle of O-critters that were standing directly behind them. First round started a stampede that resulted in lots of flattened brass.
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During Armor School the Class Advisor decided to bring the wives/GFs to the range to see the M1s firing. They pull up in a van, stumble out, wander around a bit. We're all buttoned up, looking downrange, not seeing the audience.

Range clears, four tanks on line commence firing main guns and .50 cal.

Women screeching and crying running for the van. 1LT Bonehead didn't think to issue any hearing protection.

(The concussion from a tank main gun round will take your breath away -- literally).
 
dmccormack said:
The small arms take time as well: One .50 cal (M2HB) at the commanders station, two M240 7.62 machine guns (gunner's coax and loader), and sidearms for all crew members.
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Question for whoever knows the answer: why aren't 7.62 mm ammo and weapons referred to as thirty caliber, since it's the exact same dimension? It seems like using a round number would be more convenient.
 
Palmpilot said:
Question for whoever knows the answer: why aren't 7.62 mm ammo and weapons referred to as thirty caliber, since it's the exact same dimension? It seems like using a round number would be more convenient.
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Conspiracy to convert the world to the metric system. :)
 
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