why we enter on the 45

[Unregistered]

I'm 2 miles north of the field, inbound for runway 36, right hand pattern. On CTAF, I hear another plane departing, closed traffic. The other aircraft has higher performance than my own and is in the hands of an experienced pilot. I look; negative contact.

I keep looking, but still don't see anything. I didn't hear a crosswind call; maybe he left the area to the north? Maybe he aborted his takeoff? I don't see a plane on the ground. Something doesn't add up.

I'm almost abeam the departure end of 36, ready to join the downwind. The belly of the other aircraft suddenly appears on the right side of my windshield, in a climbing right turn from crosswind to downwind. We are uncomfortably close.

I take a moment to assess his intentions; if he levels out and continues ahead of me on the downwind, I can sidestep to the left and do a left 360. Instead, he continues his turn and GTFO to the north. I say "traffic in sight..." on the CTAF, join the downwind, and land.

Later, I asked the other pilot what he uses to keep the belly of his airplane so clean. I told him I heard him and was looking for him but didn't see him. He said he heard me and was looking for me and didn't see me, either. Yikes!

Lessons learned: He should have called crosswind, and I should have spoken up when I didn't see him, but I should have entered on the 45 to begin with.

 

[d5by5]

The real problem is you not entering on a midfield 45. Remember in Class G a radio is not required.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Oh boy, another traffic pattern thread!

Nothing against you, OP. I'm afraid of what this is going to turn into.

 

[Everskyward]

No matter where or how you enter the pattern there are potential conflicts. Not to mention that you can't control what others do. Using the radio helps but others may not have radios, or may not be listening or transmitting.

 

[Henning]

No matter where or how you enter the pattern there are potential conflicts. Not to mention that you can't control what others do. Using the radio helps but others may not have radios, or may not be listening or transmitting.

Yep, there is no method of entering the pattern that is without conflict risk. You do what you can regardless.

 

[dmspilot]

I'm 2 miles north of the field, inbound for runway 36, right hand pattern. On CTAF, I hear another plane departing, closed traffic.

Two miles away it should have been easy to see another aircraft taking off, no?

 

[flyingron]

Remember in Unicom a radio is not required.

EH? Unicom has no meaning without a radio.

You mean at an uncontrolled field not everybody has a radio (that's true, and in fact, true of just about any airport).

 

[d5by5]

EH? Unicom has no meaning without a radio.

You mean at an uncontrolled field not everybody has a radio (that's true, and in fact, true of just about any airport).

To be exact in Class G fields there is no radio requirements. Non-towered, CTAF. Assume he was flying on one.

The point really is how he is entering on such a field. The AIM says a midfield-45...or cross midfield 500 above pattern and teardrop back on a 45 midfield.

The AIM also says to depart such a field on a 45.

It sounded like he was coming in on the departure numbers at a 90 and thought since he didn't hear a cross-wind call from a departing aircraft that this presented the major problem.

But the problem began with trying to enter downwind at other than midfield, and not on a 45. And an added problem by assuming everyone has a radio on a Class G airfield.

 

[flyingron]

To be exact in Class G fields there is no radio requirements. Non-towered, CTAF. Assume he was flying on one.

Doesn't need to be class G. Plenty of uncontrolled fields in other classes of airspace.

The point really is how he is entering on such a field. The AIM says a midfield-45...or cross midfield 500 above pattern and teardrop back on a 45 midfield.

The AIM doesn't say squat about teardrops or 45's. It just says enter at midfield at pattern altitude.

The AIM also says to depart such a field on a 45.

It says depart straight out or at a 45.

But the problem began with trying to enter downwind at other than midfield, and not on a 45.

I'll concede the midfield. But there's no requirement for a 45.

Further, the pattern is only a recommendation at an uncontrolled field. The only hard rule is you have to fly left turns (unless right turns are indicated).

 

[Palmpilot]

...Further, the pattern is only a recommendation at an uncontrolled field. The only hard rule is you have to fly left turns (unless right turns are indicated).

And that's only "when approaching to land."

 

[Dan Thomas]

It says depart straight out or at a 45.

In Canada the recommendation is to climb to 1000 feet before making any turns. That keeps you clear of anyone entering or remaining in the circuit.

"Departing the Circuit or Airport: Aircraft departing the circuit or airport should climb straight ahead on the runway heading until reaching the circuit traffic altitude before commencing a turn in any direction to an enroute heading. Turns back toward the circuit or airport should not be initiated until at least 500t above the circuit altitude."

Why any pilot would cut through the circuit when departing is beyond me.

 

[Witmo]

The real problem is you not entering on a midfield 45. Remember in Class G a radio is not required.

The real problem in this scenario was not modifying his entry plan when he couldn't spot the departing traffic. Why do pilots continue on a possible conflicting path, knowing that another plane is out there in front of them and they don't have a visual? If the other airplane doesn't call his crosswind, ask him where he's at and visually acquire him before blindly continuing on. The 45 entry is not the fool proof solution to entry. I've seen pilots continue on the 45 even after someone reports turning off the crosswind onto downwind and obviously not have pattern traffic in sight. If someone is on the downwind, I don't turn onto the downwind until I've established exactly where that traffic is.

 

[BigBadLou]

That's why I always prefer to talk to the other pilot(s).
If I cannot see them, I discuss with them how to remain clear. It works marvelously. Making blind useless position reports on the radio without coordination can be counterproductive. Just talk to each other, people!

 

[flyingron]

That's why I always prefer to talk to the other pilot(s).
If I cannot see them, I discuss with them how to remain clear. It works marvelously. Making blind useless position reports on the radio without coordination can be counterproductive. Just talk to each other, people!

And for heaven's sake...LISTEN. Radio is only effective when received in addition to transmitted.

This brings up my double gripe. People who don't listen on the radio and people who play military wannabee at civilian fields with useless reports (second only to IFR pilots who make reports useless to VFR pilots).

WANNABE: CULPEPER TRAFFIC, FOX 21 FLIGHT OF THREE HIGH KEY
27K: Culpeper traffic, Navion 5327k Left Downwind Runway 23. Warbird traffic, what altitude are you at?
(silence).

 

[Unit74]

IBFT idiots who will say all you need is the MK1 eyeball and no radio is better than sliced bread.

 

[somorris]

There definitely is risk. We have to do the best we can to avoid collisions, then we may still have one. Here's to being safe!

 

[Kritchlow]

A crosswind call, at least years ago, was a non standard call. That call would only be made if there was a (known) potential issue.

 

[flyingron]

A crosswind call, at least years ago, was a non standard call. That call would only be made if there was a (known) potential issue.

It's common for pattern work and has been so since I started flying, but you are right, it is NOT one of the ones recommended by the AIM. Neither is "on the 45" or "leaving the pattern," though not officially despised like ATITPPA.
My favorite complete waste of bandwidth is the "last call" transmission. I always an inclined to either order one more drink or respond with "You promise?"

 

[exncsurfer]

Back to OP, When doing pattern work with my CFI, closed traffic, as you said the other plane reported, we always turn crosswind at 500ft or runway end whichever comes last. So based on that, you saw his belly exactly where I would expect to see it. Not sure why you continued to enter the downwind without him in sight. He basically told you he was taking off and would be getting in your path. Also, did he leave the pattern because he realized the conflict had occurred? Or just changed his mind about staying in the pattern?

 

[danhagan]

I'm 2 miles north of the field, inbound for runway 36, right hand pattern. On CTAF, I hear another plane departing ...

I'm almost abeam the departure end of 36, ready to join the downwind. The belly of the other aircraft suddenly appears on the right side of my windshield, in a climbing right turn from crosswind to downwind. We are uncomfortably close.

You entered on an extended downwind entry. A mid field 45 would have allowed you to see him better (rather than a straight in into the downwind).

 

[somorris]

My favorite complete waste of bandwidth is the "last call" transmission. I always an inclined to either order one more drink or respond with "You promise?"

I have heard that one also, Ron. Although if the frequency is fairly quiet, a few extra calls don't bother me that bad. It lets you know you don't have to worry about that aircraft anymore unless the position of the call is close to you heading in to the airport.

We are not (thankfully) not required to have radios to fly in most airspace, but I do think they add a layer to safety if used correctly, especially in relatively busy airspace with a wide variety of aircraft (jets to cubs, like where I am based).

 

[Kritchlow]

Why is ATITPPA despised? I have always gleaned useful information out of that call.

 

[brcase]

Why is ATITPPA despised? I have always gleaned useful information out of that call.

Because it is a poor use of the air time. The fact that you bothered to transmit implies you would like to be notified of any traffic that might be an issue. Much better to just say ABC Traffic, Cessna 123, 3 miles north inbound to ABC.

Now I know where you are and will respond if you are an issue. if I am at airport XYZ or 3 miles south I probably wont say anything. Even if you say ATITPPA.

Worse yet if you have 3 airplanes in the pattern, who do you want to advise you 1st, More likely you will 3 get advisories all at once as they step all over each other. Or all 3 will just ignore you thinking someone else will advise you.

Brian

 

[Kritchlow]

Because it is a poor use of the air time. The fact that you bothered to transmit implies you would like to be notified of any traffic that might be an issue. Much better to just say ABC Traffic, Cessna 123, 3 miles north inbound to ABC.

Now I know where you are and will respond if you are an issue. if I am at airport XYZ or 3 miles south I probably wont say anything. Even if you say ATITPPA.

Worse yet if you have 3 airplanes in the pattern, who do you want to advise you 1st, More likely you will 3 get advisories all at once as they step all over each other. Or all 3 will just ignore you thinking someone else will advise you.

Brian

Respectfully, I disagree. I think it's a very informative piece of info not only for me, but anyone else in the area gets a situational refresher.
Many times I have taxied out, got a clearance at the end of the runway and was off CTAF freq. asking for traffic to advise yielded very good results for me.
Inbound, we usually don't get released from ATC freq until about 10 miles from the uncontrolled field. We monitor further out on radio 2, but beyond that we are too high and a Unicom freq is a jumbled mess. Once I switch I want to know who is where. Sounds like a GREAT use of radio airtime if you ask me.

 

[flyingron]

Why is ATITPPA despised? I have always gleaned useful information out of that call.

Really, why not make a position report and open you ears and listen for the others in the pattern to make theirs.

I said "officially despised" because all all the crappy, non-standard, excessively verbose, and otherwise useless mindless jaw flapping that takes place on 122.8, this is the only one that has a statement in the AIM telling you DON'T DO IT:

4−1−9. Traffic Advisory Practices at
Airports Without Operating Control Towers
(g) ... Pilots stating, “Traffic in the area,
please advise” is not a recognized Self−Announce
Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be
used under any condition

 

[azure]

I actually agree that ATITPPA gives useful information. It alerts me that the caller has likely not been listening on the frequency for very long and might be barreling in blind with no idea of where I or anyone else is...

 

[somorris]

I also frequently advise traffic in an area when I am transiting the area fairly close (within 5 miles or so) to an airport just to let area traffic know I am passing through. I haven't seen this in the AIM, but I personally think it is good practice.

 

[somorris]

I actually agree that ATITPPA gives useful information. It alerts me that the caller has likely not been listening on the frequency for very long and might be barreling in blind with no idea of where I or anyone else is...

It doesn't bother me either for someone to say that. It only takes a few seconds.

 

[Kritchlow]

Really, why not make a position report and open you ears and listen for the others in the pattern to make theirs.

I said "officially despised" because all all the crappy, non-standard, excessively verbose, and otherwise useless mindless jaw flapping that takes place on 122.8, this is the only one that has a statement in the AIM telling you DON'T DO IT:

4−1−9. Traffic Advisory Practices at
Airports Without Operating Control Towers
(g) ... Pilots stating, “Traffic in the area,
please advise” is not a recognized Self−Announce
Position and/or Intention phrase and should not be
used under any condition

When your in a jet waiting to takeoff, why would you sit there and burn fuel if you can get out right away? If I know theres someone on downwind that's a heads up if I turn that way on departure. I always look, but I'm not beyond missing something. If someone reports final but I didn't see them, I may have just saved an accident. To discourage such a call is irresponsible IMO.

 

[Fearless Tower]

When your in a jet waiting to takeoff, why would you sit there and burn fuel if you can get out right away? If I know theres someone on downwind that's a heads up if I turn that way on departure. I always look, but I'm not beyond missing something. If someone reports final but I didn't see them, I may have just saved an accident. To discourage such a call is irresponsible IMO.

What does ATITPA accomplish in that scenario that would not be better accomplished by you simply making your transmission "jet 12345 taking off runway xx left downwind departure"???

 

[Kritchlow]

What does ATITPA accomplish in that scenario that would not be better accomplished by you simply making your transmission "jet 12345 taking off runway xx left downwind departure"???

Simple... If someone happened to be on final or tight base that I did not see, I would be made aware of that traffic. Not a guarantee, but one more layer of protection. I don't understand the hatred of this call. It seems MORE than justified.

 

[Kritchlow]

What does ATITPA accomplish in that scenario that would not be better accomplished by you simply making your transmission "jet 12345 taking off runway xx left downwind departure"???

In addition, I just don't think people should criticize a departing or arriving aircraft to have the picture. That is good airmanship. Relying on someone else to lookout for you is questionable. I ask as I truly believe it's another layer of protection.

 

[azure]

I also frequently advise traffic in an area when I am transiting the area fairly close (within 5 miles or so) to an airport just to let area traffic know I am passing through. I haven't seen this in the AIM, but I personally think it is good practice.

And around fields where there is a lot of traffic that is slower or less maneuverable, it's a really good idea. To visit the avionics shop I have to pass almost directly over a field where, on good days, there is a lot of glider activity. I always announce, and listen on that frequency, for the whole time I'm over the valley.

 

[azure]

It doesn't bother me either for someone to say that. It only takes a few seconds.

I was being somewhat facetious. I never assume that someone who comes onto the frequency for the first time to give a position report has heard my previous report, so I repeat it. I don't hate the ATITTPA call, but it always sounds to me as if the person wants everyone to know that he just came on and has no idea what's going on.

 

[Kritchlow]

I was being somewhat facetious. I never assume that someone who comes onto the frequency for the first time to give a position report has heard my previous report, so I repeat it. I don't hate the ATITTPA call, but it always sounds to me as if the person wants everyone to know that he just came on and has no idea what's going on.

Sometimes that is indeed the case... I'm not too shy to advertise "hey, I'm new on the freq. where's everyone at so I know the picture".... Of course not quite in those words. Conversely, I'm relieved when a new person on the freq wants to know where I'm at. Good to hear other pilots who want good situational awareness.

On a sidenote, I hate going to Mexico when pilot and controller are speaking in native tongue. They could have cleared someone for takeoff on a crossing runway as I'm on short final and I'd never know it.

 

[Palmpilot]

Simple... If someone happened to be on final or tight base that I did not see, I would be made aware of that traffic. Not a guarantee, but one more layer of protection. I don't understand the hatred of this call. It seems MORE than justified.

In what universe would radio-equipped traffic on final not respond if you announced that you were about to take the runway?

 

[Kritchlow]

In what universe would radio-equipped traffic on final not respond if you announced that you were about to take the runway?

An airplane that may not be aware of how long it takes to get a larger airplane situated and powered up. If I were relying on the guy on final to speak up, that could be a grave mistake. He could be a 20 hour student with no clue what's going on. If I know where he is, now I can make an informed decision. I don't want to leave that up to others. Why would I trust my spacing to possibly low timers without good judgement? Maybe they have great judgement, but I don't know that, do I ?

As the say, YMMV. That's fine, but I simply do not understand critisizing others.

 

[Kritchlow]

Does anyone here look at their tcas before taking the runway?? Why on earth would you do that???

 

[RoscoeT]

As the say, YMMV. That's fine, but I simply do not understand critisizing others.

If you truly have no understanding as to why this phrase elicits near universal disdain, then you are not listening. If you're in flight and make that call, it's as if you're requesting a roll call of everyone in the airport area who is incapable of hearing your own position report via radio and letting you know if a conflict may exist without your "please advise" request. "Well I wasn't going to mention that we are about to have a conflict, but now that you requested me to advise, sure..."

I ignore pilots who make these calls. When they make it, I know about where they are. I make my normal position reports. Next call I make they will know where I am. Maybe I should start saying, "I heard your position report, advise you keep your ears on and eyes open. If I hear a position report and feel there's a remote chance of conflict, I'll advise them. No stupid "please advise" request needed.

 

[Kritchlow]

If you truly have no understanding as to why this phrase elicits near universal disdain, then you are not listening. If you're in flight and make that call, it's as if you're requesting a roll call of everyone in the airport area who is incapable of hearing your own position report via radio and letting you know if a conflict may exist without your "please advise" request. "Well I wasn't going to mention that we are about to have a conflict, but now that you requested me to advise, sure..."

I ignore pilots who make these calls. When they make it, I know about where they are. I make my normal position reports. Next call I make they will know where I am. Maybe I should start saying, "I heard your position report, advise you keep your ears on and eyes open. If I hear a position report and feel there's a remote chance of conflict, I'll advise them. No stupid "please advise" request needed.

As a professional pilot, I would like ATC or myself to judge my spacing on other aircraft. To rely on a new 20 hour solo pilot on his first cross country to provide my seperation is derelict of duty IMO. To purposely ignore such a request is not only immature, but does nothing except reduce safety.

Never thought I would see the day in aviation where pilots are ridiculed for wanting to know where the traffic is.