why we enter on the 45

azure said:
That's pretty much my position too. Other than to point out that it doesn't (or shouldn't) change what anyone else does, I wouldn't take it any further and I really don't care whether someone says it or not.
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Ditto.

One of the biggest non-issues I can recall here.

It's like knocking on somebody's door AND saying "Is anybody home?"

Redundant? Sure. But who cares?
 
Kritchlow said:
Does anyone here look at their tcas before taking the runway?? Why on earth would you do that???
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I don't. I actually leave it packed securely in the box it came in, sitting on the shelf, in the store that sells them. :wink2:
 
My mode S doesn't work until moving.

For those that advocate ATITPPA, have you ever tried not using it then using it a little later and heard any difference in the radio calls? I never change mine.
 
Kritchlow said:
Does anyone here look at their tcas before taking the runway?? Why on earth would you do that???
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My TIS (and now ADSB) yells at me constantly while taxiing. It SUCKS.

"Traffic 12 o'clock high less than 1 mile!" while I'm taxiing on the parallel is not at all useful, and only serves to train in ignoring the damn thing.

It also routinely gives me false alarms of traffic on my six, particularly during turns. It's ME.

TCAS doesn't show everything. A blank screen is not a guarantee there is nothing there. So, looking at it does not give a picture of local traffic.
 
MAKG1 said:
My TIS (and now ADSB) yells at me constantly while taxiing. It SUCKS.

"Traffic 12 o'clock high less than 1 mile!" while I'm taxiing on the parallel is not at all useful, and only serves to train in ignoring the damn thing.

It also routinely gives me false alarms of traffic on my six, particularly during turns. It's ME.

TCAS doesn't show everything. A blank screen is not a guarantee there is nothing there. So, looking at it does not give a picture of local traffic.
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Well, I bowed out if the old topic, but this is new stuff...

TCAS is not the be-all end-all, but again, it is indeed one more layer of safety.
It gives a pretty good picture of the traffic, but perhaps not perfect. In your context it looks like you are saying if the screen is blank, that doesn't mean someone isn't there. I agree with that. That said, what I'm saying is I may not see someone looking out the window, but do see them on TCAS. So, like everything else, it's not my only source of traffic info, but it is once source.
 
MAKG1 said:
My TIS (and now ADSB) yells at me constantly while taxiing. It SUCKS.
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Unswitched into the audio panel? That installation needs to be changed. Anyway, you can turn the audio panel off and the number 1 com will still go to your headset.

I've worked with a half dozen avionics shops installing or fixing stuff and none of them offered to set up unswitched audio. Even the terrain warning system on the Aspen has a switch for the voice annunciator.
 
Clark1961 said:
Unswitched into the audio panel? That installation needs to be changed. Anyway, you can turn the audio panel off and the number 1 com will still go to your headset.

I've worked with a half dozen avionics shops installing or fixing stuff and none of them offered to set up unswitched audio. Even the terrain warning system on the Aspen has a switch for the voice annunciator.
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Yeah, we don't get any audio while on the ground. We see, but don't hear. I assume it's on a squat switch. That said, we have TCAS II, not ADSB.
 
In reference to AIM advising not to say ATITPPA....

4-2-1b " Since concise phraseology may not always be adequate, use whatever words are necessary to get your message across"

Just saying...
 
I intentionally ignore all-traffic-please-step-on-each-other-and-blank-out-relevant-calls calls, mutter to myself that you'll hear me when it's relevant if you tell me your position and intentions, and then eventually make my calls as I normally would.
 
mkosmo said:
I intentionally ignore all-traffic-please-step-on-each-other-and-blank-out-relevant-calls calls, mutter to myself that you'll hear me when it's relevant if you tell me your position and intentions, and then eventually make my calls as I normally would.
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That is ine of the most irresponsible things I have ever heard in aviation.
 
Kritchlow said:
That is ine of the most irresponsible things I have ever heard in aviation.
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Then now are three of us in the pattern / on the ground supposed to all respond to someone asking for all traffic to reply?

ATITPPA is a foolish call. Can't but one at a time answer back. All you gotta do is LISTEN, and make your normal "Boondocks traffic, Smasher 24X is 10 miles south, inbound, full stop" call. If you're listening, you will hear whatever traffic is in the pattern.

I made these calls coming home last night at dusk, at 10 miles, 5 miles, crossover, downwind entry, base turn, final turn and clearing the runway. Had the airport all to myself. Only called Clear because my wife nagged me, afraid I'd get out of the habit.
 
Hank S said:
Then now are three of us in the pattern / on the ground supposed to all respond to someone asking for all traffic to reply?

ATITPPA is a foolish call. Can't but one at a time answer back. All you gotta do is LISTEN, and make your normal "Boondocks traffic, Smasher 24X is 10 miles south, inbound, full stop" call. If you're listening, you will hear whatever traffic is in the pattern.

I made these calls coming home last night at dusk, at 10 miles, 5 miles, crossover, downwind entry, base turn, final turn and clearing the runway. Had the airport all to myself. Only called Clear because my wife nagged me, afraid I'd get out of the habit.
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Not sure how I got back into this, but....

1) To intentionally ignore, regardless of traffic congestion, is irresponsible no matter how you slice it.

2) If I'm entering the pattern and make my call, I may not see you or know you are there. You may not see me. Even if you do see me it would be very beneficial for me to know someone else is in the pattern. I fly a pattern at 1500 agl. I could unknowing descend on top of you if I don't know you are there.

It's not a perfect practice, but it is one more layer of safety if all pilots know where others are.

In a busy pattern, or if I were doing pattern work and already had the mental picture of the traffic, than I agree it can do more harm than good. If I'm off the freq getting a release and I'm new to the pattern with no mental picture, I feel it's a very useful call. It has proved itself over the years.
 
mkosmo said:
I intentionally ignore all-traffic-please-step-on-each-other-and-blank-out-relevant-calls calls, mutter to myself that you'll hear me when it's relevant if you tell me your position and intentions, and then eventually make my calls as I normally would.
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Kritchlow said:
That is ine of the most irresponsible things I have ever heard in aviation.
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Agreed. Can't fix stupid. And some wonder why the GA safety rate is so pitiful.
 
Kritchlow said:
That is ine of the most irresponsible things I have ever heard in aviation.
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I recognize that you always need to be right so it is pointless to respond to this, but if you LISTEN, you will quickly learn where I am because I make all required calls every time.

If you're flying a fast moving jet or other plane, then you should be monitoring me on your second radio from much more than 10 miles out and if the first time you are checking in to a non towered field is when approach dumps you, then SHAME ON YOU, and THAT is the most irresponsible thing that I've ever heard in aviation.
 
KA550 said:
Agreed. Can't fix stupid. And some wonder why the GA safety rate is so pitiful.
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Probably helps if you tell us over and over what to do and then mock us when we don't do it your way.... Meanwhile we will do what the AIM tells us to do:idea:
 
retailguy said:
I recognize that you always need to be right so it is pointless to respond to this, but if you LISTEN, you will quickly learn where I am because I make all required calls every time.

If you're flying a fast moving jet or other plane, then you should be monitoring me on your second radio from much more than 10 miles out and if the first time you are checking in to a non towered field is when approach dumps you, then SHAME ON YOU, and THAT is the most irresponsible thing that I've ever heard in aviation.
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I'm not always right, but according to you, you are always perfect. You never miss a call and always see all traffic.

Monitoring 10 miles (roughly 2 1/2 minutes), is easier said than done. At that point we may be descending through about 3,000 and trying to listen to a Unicom freq jumbled with several airports, plus having ATC on comm 1, can be a bit challenging. Trying to decipher your downwind call just may not happen.

Now, what about the others who may not be so perfect and may miss a call now and then? Should I trust every weekend student pilot to make every judgement call exactly right? Leave it up to them to determine if I have enough time to depart when they are on final?
Why does (about 1/2 the time) ATC point out other IFR traffic when both are properly seperated?
But, I'll leave the 100 hour pilot to take care of my traffic seperation. After all, 31 years flying out if uncontrolled airports doubtfully taught me anything. No experience gained here.

But I agree.... Shame, shame on those pilots who want to know where the traffic is. How dare they?
 
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Kritchlow said:
That is ine of the most irresponsible things I have ever heard in aviation.
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If you really feel that strongly about it, maybe you should explain to the FAA why they should start recommending ATITAPA/ATITPPA in the AIM, and also get them to advise people to respond to such calls. There are instructions for how and where to submit suggested changes in the front of the book. Railing about it here on the forum only reaches a tiny, tiny percentage of pilots.
 
Palmpilot said:
If you really feel that strongly about it, maybe you should explain to the FAA why they should start recommending ATITAPA/ATITPPA in the AIM, and also get them to advise people to respond to such calls. There are instructions for how and where to submit suggested changes in the front of the book. Railing about it here on the forum only reaches a tiny, tiny percentage of pilots.
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This doesn't count toward getting sucked back in lol... :D

I don't feel strongly about others asking the question. I truly have no beef if another pilot doesn't do it. I simply don't care. What bothers me is when people tell me I can't do it, and if I do they purposely will not answer. That just seems like they are trying to "stick it to the man". That attitude in aviation just doesn't wash with me. Like most things in aviation, good judgement rules the day.

Okay, this time I'm REALLY leaving lol....
 
Kritchlow said:
What bothers me is when people tell me I can't do it, and if I do they purposely will not answer.
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What's the point in responding if I'm going to be stepped on anyways or about to give a more precise call legitimately anyways? Communications requires you to continuously listen, not just when you want to. And communications are only a backup and top to help you spot traffic VFR. The FAA isn't going to look kindly on you when you run over somebody and the only defense is they didn't respond to your ATITPPA... Even if they're only a 100 hour pilot.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
 
mkosmo said:
What's the point in responding if I'm going to be stepped on anyways or about to give a more precise call legitimately anyways? Communications requires you to continuously listen, not just when you want to. And communications are only a backup and top to help you spot traffic VFR. The FAA isn't going to look kindly on you when you run over somebody and the only defense is they didn't respond to your ATITPPA... Even if they're only a 100 hour pilot.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
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Back in!!!!
If I get a jumbled response (not often), that will tell me there are multiple airplanes I need to look for. I know can ask a follow up, or sit tight to get it sorted out. So yes, I can get information from a jumbled response. Besides, usually I can make out the stronger transmission.

Not once in this thread did I say it was my only way of traffic avoidance. I have repeatedly said its just one more layer.

You know, aviation in general is all about redundancy and double checking. In light airplanes some gyros are vacuum, while one is electric for redundancy (at least that's the way it used to be). We have two mags with two plugs in each cylinder. Larger airplanes have multiple generators and multiple hydraulic systems. We run flows and check the items with a checklist. Some airplanes the flight controls disconnect and the right and left stick control different surfaces, each of which can safely fly. The list goes on and on.
Don't see the big deal about redundant communication.
 
Kritchlow said:
I'm not always right, but according to you, you are always perfect. You never miss a call and always see all traffic.

Monitoring 10 miles (roughly 2 1/2 minutes), is easier said than done. At that point we may be descending through about 3,000 and trying to listen to a Unicom freq jumbled with several airports, plus having ATC on comm 1, can be a bit challenging. Trying to decipher your downwind call just may not happen.

Now, what about the others who may not be so perfect and may miss a call now and then? Should I trust every weekend student pilot to make every judgement call exactly right? Leave it up to them to determine if I have enough time to depart when they are on final?
Why does (about 1/2 the time) ATC point out other IFR traffic when both are properly seperated?
But, I'll leave the 100 hour pilot to take care of my traffic seperation. After all, 31 years flying out if uncontrolled airports doubtfully taught me anything. No experience gained here.

But I agree.... Shame, shame on those pilots who want to know where the traffic is. How dare they?
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Nice try to twist it around. pages of you preaching in this thread about how we all should do it. it's very clear. I make my required calls. You should be listening 20 miles out, I do that in my Baron, you'll know what's there. I feel sorry for you that it's "hard". You're a big boy. You can do it.
 
I flew into Blakesburg a few weeks ago. They don't want radio calls made because a lot of the old planes don't have them. So I flew into a busy airfield, with nothing but a guy on the ground giving me a green flag if I was cleared to land. I thought I survived, but after reading this thread, maybe I didn't. Sure seemed easy! Next time I'll yell out the window, ATITPPA!
 
retailguy said:
Nice try to twist it around. pages of you preaching in this thread about how we all should do it. it's very clear. I make my required calls. You should be listening 20 miles out, I do that in my Baron, you'll know what's there. I feel sorry for you that it's "hard". You're a big boy. You can do it.
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You sound like an angry person. Put your money where your mouth is. Show me the pages of me preaching that OTHER people should be doing it. Please use the multi-quite button.

BTW... 20 miles out I'm probably 7,000'. You know how many patterns with the same freq one can hear from that altitude?
 
Lowflynjack said:
I flew into Blakesburg a few weeks ago. They don't want radio calls made because a lot of the old planes don't have them. So I flew into a busy airfield, with nothing but a guy on the ground giving me a green flag if I was cleared to land. I thought I survived, but after reading this thread, maybe I didn't. Sure seemed easy! Next time I'll yell out the window, ATITPPA!
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Interesting. Who exactly was "clearing you to land"? If it was tower personnel I would think they would use gun signals. If not, that procedure seems questionable. That said, this is a new one on me, so perhaps you can enlighten me!!
 
Private field, just a flagman next to the runway! Blakesburg is a pretty famous fly-in.

Kritchlow said:
Interesting. Who exactly was "clearing you to land"? If it was tower personnel I would think they would use gun signals. If not, that procedure seems questionable. That said, this is a new one on me, so perhaps you can enlighten me!!
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Kritchlow said:
You sound like an angry person. Put your money where your mouth is. Show me the pages of me preaching that OTHER people should be doing it. Please use the multi-quite button.

BTW... 20 miles out I'm probably 7,000'. You know how many patterns with the same freq one can hear from that altitude?
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you sound like a know it all. So what? Focus. I know it's tough but you can do it.

Yeah, you can hear LOTS of different traffic from that altitude. That's why we all start a call with "Podunk 1 traffic".... You're the professional pilot with 30 years of experience, as you've reminded us multiple times in just this thread. I predict you can handle it. Give it a try. Somehow, I manage and I don't have close to 30 years experience. And I've yet to hit a student pilot, even the ones who can't get the frequency quite right. And even guys like Jack who yell out the window. Without once demanding that people announce themselves when I enter the pattern. I guess I've just been lucky.

You can re-read this thread to review what you've said. It's pretty clear. Or hire a secretary and spend some of that 30 year experience 401K money.

The FAA is really missing out. They need you to fix the AIM. Before someone gets hurt.
 
mkosmo said:
Do we graduate to a split-s from overhead downwind to touchdown?

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
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Wasn't that guy from Ohio? Me? I just try to land safely and avoid all those student pilots who don't make radio calls. I wish they'd rewrite the AIM before someone kills me.

Edit - what I can't figure out is where all these student pilots are coming from since no one is flying and this "hobby" is dying....:D
 
retailguy said:
you sound like a know it all. So what? Focus. I know it's tough but you can do it.

Yeah, you can hear LOTS of different traffic from that altitude. That's why we all start a call with "Podunk 1 traffic".... You're the professional pilot with 30 years of experience, as you've reminded us multiple times in just this thread. I predict you can handle it. Give it a try. Somehow, I manage and I don't have close to 30 years experience. And I've yet to hit a student pilot, even the ones who can't get the frequency quite right. And even guys like Jack who yell out the window. Without once demanding that people announce themselves when I enter the pattern. I guess I've just been lucky.

You can re-read this thread to review what you've said. It's pretty clear. Or hire a secretary and spend some of that 30 year experience 401K money.

The FAA is really missing out. They need you to fix the AIM. Before someone gets hurt.
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I'm growing tired of the insinuations. Put up or shut up.
 
retailguy said:
I understand as you've said before that we must do it your way. I am hopelessly broken and don't do things that way. Use your 30 years of experience.
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Listen.... If you quote where I said that I'll give you $100. If you can't, you are a troll looking for an arguement.
 
Kritchlow said:
Listen.... If you quote where I said that I'll give you $100. If you can't, you are a troll looking for an arguement.
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I'm not playing. Period. And most trolls don't have 500 posts.

Look. Let's be clear. Go back. Read the whole thread. over and over. There is no right answer EXCEPT YOURS. Even the FAA is wrong.

I understand your opinion. I disagree. My opinion? All you do when you enter the pattern and make that call is tell the rest of us that you are too d@mn busy and too d@mn important to follow the rules the rest of us follow. You aren't paying attention and you expect the rest of us to do it your way because you're too busy and too important to do it how the FAA told you to do it.

You disagree. Great. Take your 30 years of experience, crawl into your jet and move on. The rest of us will just roll our eyes and keep flying at 100 or 180 knots, and laugh every time you make that STUPID call.
 
retailguy said:
I'm not playing. Period. And most trolls don't have 500 posts.

Look. Let's be clear. Go back. Read the whole thread. over and over. There is no right answer EXCEPT YOURS. Even the FAA is wrong.

I understand your opinion. I disagree. My opinion? All you do when you enter the pattern and make that call is tell the rest of us that you are too d@mn busy and too d@mn important to follow the rules the rest of us follow. You aren't paying attention and you expect the rest of us to do it your way because you're too busy and too important to do it how the FAA told you to do it.

You disagree. Great. Take your 30 years of experience, crawl into your jet and move on. The rest of us will just roll our eyes and keep flying at 100 or 180 knots, and laugh every time you make that STUPID call.
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Right. There is no other answer FOR ME. You said I demand others to do the same. I'm calling you. You can't back it up. And yes... I probably have more time in reverse than most people here have total. You just might learn something.
 
Kritchlow said:
Right. There is no other answer FOR ME. You said I demand others to do the same. I'm calling you. You can't back it up. And yes... I probably have more time in reverse than most people here have total. You just might learn something.
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Almost speechless right now. That's what I said two pages ago. the only right answer is yours. I also said that your experience is critical to this.

I learn something every day. when I stop learning it is time to stop flying.

Thank you for teaching me what NOT to do. It's very important.

You can tell your wife that you "won" the argument on the internet. Don't tell her that you established the "rules". that will minimize the importance.

Always remember that someone is laughing at you when you make that radio call... the great thing is that you have cheered someone up!
 
retailguy said:
Almost speechless right now. That's what I said two pages ago. the only right answer is yours. I also said that your experience is critical to this.

I learn something every day. when I stop learning it is time to stop flying.

Thank you for teaching me what NOT to do. It's very important.

You can tell your wife that you "won" the argument on the internet. Don't tell her that you established the "rules". that will minimize the importance.

Always remember that someone is laughing at you when you make that radio call... the great thing is that you have cheered someone up!
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Whatever... This time I'm REALLY out. I'm just feeding the troll.
 
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